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On August 06 2013 21:44 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 21:40 NarutO wrote:On August 06 2013 21:37 xyzz wrote:NarutO wrote:
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it. What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh. You call me out as a terrible player, thats my response. Usually a grudgematch has something to it. (Ban, change of signature etc) You can also reply to the arguments in my last post "paper thin" More strawmen I see. Please point out with a quote where I called you a terrible player. I questioned whether you actually play the game since you tried to claim the WM doesn't one shot anything 3 times more expensive. It seems like this stung a little as you've decided to make it your mission to derail the thread since you were proven to be just rambling. Show nested quote +NarutO wrote:
How does he completely misplays the situation? What would the proper reaction vs a potential stargate be? (It could have been blink, stargate, proxy dt, proxy robo...) He got an ebay and turrets for both economy lines as well as his production. Please elaborate how he could have potentially reacted better? Provide the replay or the VOD. All we have currently is your word on what happened, and your word is that he made 3 turrets vs an Oracle which is completely excessive, and he lost 5 Marines despite being completely safe under just 1 turret's radius. And the response to all those 'potentials' is the same. You scout untill you find out what it is, and before that you make those turrets in the mineral line (1 each). You're grasping at straws now...
Jesus christ there is NO guarantee you find out what it is. Blink, robo, stargate. If its proxied well, there's no guarantee y ou find it. Blinkstalker needs a completely different response compared to a stargate, as well as a proxy robo. It seems you are the one without a clue.
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NarutO wrote:
You questioning me if I play the game at all, because I disagree with you?
You're trying to break some records here. Third straw man in your third post on the same page. You didn't disagree with me. You failed to know the build costs of Protoss units.
EDIT:
NarutO wrote:
Saying an oracle is a paperfly dying to everything and has no potential or 1 mine shuts down all oracle play... really. :x
There were actually more straw men. This is great! Watching you go all emo and argue against imaginary arguments is even better than the SN vs First game that's on right now.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
How about both of you stop argueing like a bunch of idiots, accepts eachothers premises and if you can't get over it agree to disagree. Both of you are abusing the report function to attack eachother and are annoying me in the meantime.
Take it to PM or get on with it.
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'Aubsing the report function' really? Check out what he writes "Watching you go all emo and argue against imaginary arguments is even better than the SN vs First game thats on right now"
While I explain to him that every allin / threat from Protoss requires different preparation. Sorry to say, but he has 140 posts and argues very dumb and with all honesty, you can tell he has no clue about the game because he QQ's about mines in PvT.
To the guy
oracle 150/150
75/25 x 4 = 300/100. Just because you value gas higher, doesn't make it a true statement. As 300+100 = 400 > 300 (150+150). Thanks so much for showing off your great skills.
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Of course your argument wasn't about Oracle being '4 times more expensive than a Widow Mine', which I said already back then being a matter of opinion / taste depending on how you value gas. Your argument was:
NarutO wrote:
So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting.
But I guess you're now trying to conveniently forget that you don't know the build costs of Oracles.
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Germany25657 Posts
What part of "take it to PM" did you not understand?
Stop arguing and stop reporting each other or I will just ban both of you.
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On August 06 2013 21:44 xyzz wrote:
Provide the replay or the VOD. All we have currently is your word on what happened, and your word is that he made 3 turrets vs an Oracle which is completely excessive, and he lost 5 Marines despite being completely safe under just 1 turret's radius. And the response to all those 'potentials' is the same. You scout untill you find out what it is, and before that you make those turrets in the mineral line (1 each). You're grasping at straws now...
3 turrets is a perfectly normal terran reaction to a toss all-in. As you say yourself you already need a turret in both your mineral lines. Then depending on map/base layout a third one in your production/entrance of natural is a perfectly normal response.
Scouting until you find out what it will be is a nice idea, and completely unrealistic often. It took a while, but nowadays protoss are building proxies in random locations instead of most obvious location. And for example on a 4p map imo you are wasting time scouting for a proxy, the chance you find it in time is too small.
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On August 06 2013 21:00 Nebuchad wrote:
TvP: so a lot has been said about Mvp losing yesterday, but nothing at all has been said about that Oz vs Ryung game on Bel'shir. I thought this was way more interesting, however.
On the one side, it felt like Ryung's build was pretty halfway, and not really decisive. I'm pretty sure he didn't do the best job of terraning this game, which is probably why nobody reacted that badly to it (also no one watches WCS NA, but still).
On the other side, Oz was completely confident in his PvT at the start of the game. He didn't think there was the slightest chance of him losing, which means he didn't think his build was a gamble at all.
If he's right, then that's certainly a problem. But is he?
Yes he's right, in my experience Protoss can take a 6' third against fast expand → 3 rax Medivacs build orders and you can't do anything about it. There were already some cases of this, e. g. TaeJa vs sOs on Whirlwind from Code S RO16 last season (6'05 third vs CC first), and Ryung vs Madbull, Red City, GSTL (6'45 third vs dual Reaper expand into 3 rax Medivacs). Against Oz, Ryung went 3 rax add-ons because he probably expected Blink pressure, but well, bad luck, it was Blink into early third.
Personally I have lost all my games in which Protoss took such a quick third vs CC first; pre-Medivacs you can't do anything because stim timings naturally end up dying by themselves because of no heal, and when you have Medivacs he already has 6+ gates and AoE tech ready, with the MSC vastly improving his defence compared to WoL in which you could often inflict critical damage or even win with your 2-4 first Medivacs against such fast thirds because Protoss couldn't afford that much tech (e. g LucifroN vs Socke, Cloud Kingdom, WCS Europe 2012).
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lets see if at least 1 zerg gets to WCS finals lol. so amazingly UP its not even funny anymore.
User was temp banned for this post.
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whenever a race feels slightly up i think lots of people are even cheering against their race to speed up patching
so 0 zergs at the world finals would be greatly appreciated lol
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well zerg felt and was slightly UP the first 3 months of HOTS but in the last 2 months it got even worse. and its not surprising at all after super infestor nerfs and not enough to compensate + lots of "useless" buffs like hatchtech burrow and ovispeed or offcreep hydraspeed while letting hydras stay the same shitty unit.
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On August 07 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote:
well zerg felt and was slightly UP the first 3 months of HOTS but in the last 2 months it got even worse. and its not surprising at all after super infestor nerfs and not enough to compensate + lots of "useless" buffs like hatchtech burrow and ovispeed or offcreep hydraspeed while letting hydras stay the same shitty unit.
How about this: remove the infestor energy upgrade (i.e. every infestor has it). What would happen? Hive transition in ZvT feels hard enough, this could be helpful... some infestors could bring more life into the roach vs roach wars. ZvP? I have no idea...
it's not like the zergs would go back to pure infestor... or would they?
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naruto i really like u on taketv and think ure pretty reasonable usually so i dont get how u come in here all the time to defend terran so much
with the latest winrates in korea which are and always were the most important stats iirc there hasnt been a month since the peak of 1/1/1 were one race had such bad stats (around 35% for both zvp and zvt)
i think if you step back a little you know its true as well, its not much but even a 55% winrate in a matchup is alarmingly imbalanced
55% winrate is the average winrate of zerg vs terran in wol of the last few months and you know what this does to race representation and tournament winners over a long time
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No man, zerg isn't doing good in one WCS season, they need buffs. Terran and Protoss have always done good every season of the gsl /s/
It's laughable that people actually think that, I'm glad Blizzard is taking a more cautious approach to balance, the last time they irrationally did something to buff zerg was the queen/ovl buff, and we all know how that went.
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On August 07 2013 01:57 Tsubbi wrote:naruto i really like u on taketv and think ure pretty reasonable usually so i dont get how u come in here all the time to defend terran so much with the latest winrates in korea which are and always were the most important stats iirc there hasnt been a month since the peak of 1/1/1 were one race had such bad stats (around 35% for both zvp and zvt) i think if you step back a little you know its true as well, its not much but even a 55% winrate in a matchup is alarmingly imbalanced 55% winrate is the average winrate of zerg vs terran in wol of the last few months and you know what this does to race representation and tournament winners over a long time
Actually I have no clue what you are talking about.... and this is not troll by any means. People keep saying Zerg does underperform on highest level, but as for now HOTS most successful race based on tournament results is Zerg. In premier events, even if Zerg didn't win - Zerg was present 6 times in the finals (from the back of my head) ...
So I really don't see your point in saying its heavily underpowered? Sorry but I guess we can just agree to disagree then.
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On August 07 2013 01:57 Tsubbi wrote:naruto i really like u on taketv and think ure pretty reasonable usually so i dont get how u come in here all the time to defend terran so much with the latest winrates in korea which are and always were the most important stats iirc there hasnt been a month since the peak of 1/1/1 were one race had such bad stats (around 35% for both zvp and zvt) i think if you step back a little you know its true as well, its not much but even a 55% winrate in a matchup is alarmingly imbalanced 55% winrate is the average winrate of zerg vs terran in wol of the last few months and you know what this does to race representation and tournament winners over a long time
Well, 55% winrate was the aligulac, TLPD heavily screwed towards 50:50 because of featuring lowlevel tournament winrates.
GSL winrates were far worse in the last tournaments!
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On August 07 2013 01:57 Tsubbi wrote:naruto i really like u on taketv and think ure pretty reasonable usually so i dont get how u come in here all the time to defend terran so much with the latest winrates in korea which are and always were the most important stats iirc there hasnt been a month since the peak of 1/1/1 were one race had such bad stats (around 35% for both zvp and zvt) i think if you step back a little you know its true as well, its not much but even a 55% winrate in a matchup is alarmingly imbalanced 55% winrate is the average winrate of zerg vs terran in wol of the last few months and you know what this does to race representation and tournament winners over a long time
no use trying to convince him, just give up. He's the type of Terran who wouldn't mind endless buffs to his race and endless nerfs to the other races.
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On August 07 2013 00:37 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 21:00 Nebuchad wrote:
TvP: so a lot has been said about Mvp losing yesterday, but nothing at all has been said about that Oz vs Ryung game on Bel'shir. I thought this was way more interesting, however.
On the one side, it felt like Ryung's build was pretty halfway, and not really decisive. I'm pretty sure he didn't do the best job of terraning this game, which is probably why nobody reacted that badly to it (also no one watches WCS NA, but still).
On the other side, Oz was completely confident in his PvT at the start of the game. He didn't think there was the slightest chance of him losing, which means he didn't think his build was a gamble at all.
If he's right, then that's certainly a problem. But is he? Yes he's right, in my experience Protoss can take a 6' third against fast expand → 3 rax Medivacs build orders and you can't do anything about it. There were already some cases of this, e. g. TaeJa vs sOs on Whirlwind from Code S RO16 last season (6'05 third vs CC first), and Ryung vs Madbull, Red City, GSTL (6'45 third vs dual Reaper expand into 3 rax Medivacs). Against Oz, Ryung went 3 rax add-ons because he probably expected Blink pressure, but well, bad luck, it was Blink into early third. Personally I have lost all my games in which Protoss took such a quick third vs CC first; pre-Medivacs you can't do anything because stim timings naturally end up dying by themselves because of no heal, and when you have Medivacs he already has 6+ gates and AoE tech ready, with the MSC vastly improving his defence compared to WoL in which you could often inflict critical damage or even win with your 2-4 first Medivacs against such fast thirds because Protoss couldn't afford that much tech (e. g LucifroN vs Socke, Cloud Kingdom, WCS Europe 2012).
If that's true that would be amazing and terrible just like the free third zergs got.
That said gotta see it in some pro-matches because I am a bit skeptical. 3 bases, 6 gates and aoe up by 10? That's a lot. Surprised a photon overcharge keeps you from bowling the toss over and I can imagine more than a few maps where there simply isn't enough shit. Free unloads with 2 medivacs translating into good safe damage. Still I suppose we'll painfully see more of it soon because that should be dominant.
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On August 07 2013 01:58 blobrus wrote:No man, zerg isn't doing good in one WCS season, they need buffs. Terran and Protoss have always done good every season of the gsl /s/ It's laughable that people actually think that, I'm glad Blizzard is taking a more cautious approach to balance, the last time they irrationally did something to buff zerg was the queen/ovl buff, and we all know how that went.
second class Terrans couldn't coinflip anymore every ZvT when they were outmatched and cheese out GSL champions, ZvZ went from 20min zergling/baneling play to an actual matchup?
Pretty good patch. Sadly blizzard took too long to balance infestors (or rather didn't at all in WoL). 
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EPT
