EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 672
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12325 Posts
On August 07 2013 06:26 stille_nacht wrote: Eh punishing that sort of thing isn't difficult. You just have to scout it and get out a marine squad early and cancel it (you can take it out but that's harder). Similar to how if you dont scout a random fast third by terran you can't really punish it. I do agree sneaky BS is easier for the toss in that case though. Well Ryung tried to pressure it and he got crushed. Even though I didn't like his build and I think he didn't play too well, it should also be noted that Oz was very confident with his build at the start of the game (basically "I can't lose to terran lol"). He seemed to think he would be able to hold no matter what Ryung scouted or how well he played. | ||
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stille_nacht
United States34 Posts
I just don't think ryung played it very well, and scouted it too late. I'd be very interested to see how people like Bomber or Innovation would try to break that on a standard scout though, it certainly seems pretty safe compared to most fast 3rds | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 07 2013 06:27 Vanadiel wrote: Well, maybe Protoss is too strong and safe in the early game due to mothership core. But one or two good week for Protoss is not enough to say anything about balance, let us wait 4 or 5 month before considering there might be a problem. What about people just stop with the whine? 3 weeks ago protoss players started to whine : they had so few tournament wins, they wanted a buff. Now they are doing decent. 2 weeks ago zerg players started to whine. Finally not a zerg in the finals, and shit has to be nerfed. The target? The widow mine. What about shutting up and let the game continue like it is now (damn balanced)? | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On August 07 2013 06:51 Snowbear wrote: What about shutting up and let the game continue like it is now (damn balanced)? I don't think that's worded particularly well, even if the game is more or less balanced (I'd say it's in a decent state right now) there's always room to improve how the game itself functions in order to make it more fun to play. TvP for instance might be balanced, but it's also incredibly one-dimensional due to the MSC making Protoss extremely safe from early pressure. Basically what it means is that the only kind of all-in you'll ever see from a Terran is a pre-storm SCV pull, otherwise it's mandatory macro games. TvZ has more room for shenanigans but macro games are mandatory 4M from Terran because vipers and swarm hosts render any kind of composition that involves siege tanks useless. There's too much of a samey feel in all of Terran's non-mirror games anymore, and it's definitely to the detriment of the game. I'd say it's very productive to discuss design changes and how the game would have to be rebalanced to accommodate them, rather than just letting it continue on like it is. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
On August 07 2013 06:51 Snowbear wrote: What about people just stop with the whine? 3 weeks ago protoss players started to whine : they had so few tournament wins, they wanted a buff. Now they are doing decent. 2 weeks ago zerg players started to whine. Finally not a zerg in the finals, and shit has to be nerfed. The target? The widow mine. What about shutting up and let the game continue like it is now (damn balanced)? Lol, you were one of the biggest whiners on this forum a couple weeks ago, now protoss starts to dominate and you are quickly on the other foot calling for calm. -------- Very frustrated about TvP personally, they have so many retarded all-ins and pressures they can do to you that it is just so scary and hard to scout/defend, then out of nowhere they can switch it up and take a quick third base like duckdeok did, and you end up being behind. They're safe to do whatever the hell they want due to the MSC and Terran is scared as hell trying to survive/get into a decent position for some tiny midgame window. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 07 2013 06:51 Snowbear wrote: What about people just stop with the whine? 3 weeks ago protoss players started to whine : they had so few tournament wins, they wanted a buff. Now they are doing decent. 2 weeks ago zerg players started to whine. Finally not a zerg in the finals, and shit has to be nerfed. The target? The widow mine. What about shutting up and let the game continue like it is now (damn balanced)? Zergs been whining about widow mines since life beat flash @ mlg. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On August 07 2013 08:43 forsooth wrote: I don't think that's worded particularly well, even if the game is more or less balanced (I'd say it's in a decent state right now) there's always room to improve how the game itself functions in order to make it more fun to play. TvP for instance might be balanced, but it's also incredibly one-dimensional due to the MSC making Protoss extremely safe from early pressure. Basically what it means is that the only kind of all-in you'll ever see from a Terran is a pre-storm SCV pull, otherwise it's mandatory macro games. TvZ has more room for shenanigans but macro games are mandatory 4M from Terran because vipers and swarm hosts render any kind of composition that involves siege tanks useless. There's too much of a samey feel in all of Terran's non-mirror games anymore, and it's definitely to the detriment of the game. I'd say it's very productive to discuss design changes and how the game would have to be rebalanced to accommodate them, rather than just letting it continue on like it is. Give players time to break the meta game before trying to shake everything up with changes that could potentially destroy any semblance of balance we currently have. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12325 Posts
On August 07 2013 10:58 larse wrote: I guess we may see 3 Protoss champion in 3 regions. You think Jim will take America? I'm dubious of that. Also just because Rain won Korea doesn't mean Terran wasn't the dominant race in that region for that season. Europe... well yeah, Protoss got Europe this time, no matter who wins it =) | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
/edit Credit Terry the (terrible <3) intern. /edit On August 07 2013 11:22 Nebuchad wrote: You think Jim will take America? I'm dubious of that. Also just because Rain won Korea doesn't mean Terran wasn't the dominant race in that region for that season. Europe... well yeah, Protoss got Europe this time, no matter who wins it =) Protoss wins and still Terran "dominant race". Terran might be more numerous, but a Protoss sits at the throne rightnow. Might want to be careful about words like "dominant". | ||
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Dogfood
8 Posts
On August 07 2013 10:42 rd wrote: Give players time to break the meta game before trying to shake everything up with changes that could potentially destroy any semblance of balance we currently have. They've had over 3 years to break the meta of bio in TvP. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12325 Posts
On August 07 2013 11:28 plogamer wrote: Protoss wins and still Terran "dominant race". Terran might be more numerous, but a Protoss sits at the throne rightnow. Might want to be careful about words like "dominant". 3T into round of 4, 7T out of 8 into Ro16, 9 terrans into next code S before the Up&Down start... I'd say that's doing pretty good. I don't mean anything about the race by it, just reacting to the idea that Protoss dominated that season just because Rain won it in the end. | ||
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
On August 07 2013 11:22 Nebuchad wrote: You think Jim will take America? I'm dubious of that. Also just because Rain won Korea doesn't mean Terran wasn't the dominant race in that region for that season. Europe... well yeah, Protoss got Europe this time, no matter who wins it =) Terran were dominant and then Hellbat was removed from the game. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 07 2013 11:36 Nebuchad wrote: 3T into round of 4, 7T out of 8 into Ro16, 9 terrans into next code S before the Up&Down start... I'd say that's doing pretty good. I don't mean anything about the race by it, just reacting to the idea that Protoss dominated that season just because Rain won it in the end. People put way to much stock in what race wins championships. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12325 Posts
On August 07 2013 11:38 painkilla wrote: Terran were dominant and then Hellbat was removed from the game. Post patch gsl only is still in favor of terran in the extremely small sample size that we have (not by much, Rain might even it up against Maru). Terran owned protoss in the challenger league. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 07 2013 04:54 Wombat_NI wrote: I don't care how you do it, just create some downside to warpgate. There's a shitload of possible ways to do it, create some strategic tradeoff between forward reinforcement, and production capacity. Personally I'd like un-warped gates to have better production speed than their warpgate equivalents. To avoid proxy gates being OP, just make warpgate research add the + production speed bonus to unwarped gates. I have been suggesting something like this for years ... but not because of any power level but rather because Warp Gate has become a "must have" and not a "choice to make". Proxy Gateways are always a risk, because walling in is still easy and if you have nothing at home to defend you are openion yourself up to counterattacks. You dont start with increased production speed, so the timing of Warp Gate would make that ok. There is one reason why I dont think an increase of the cooldown of Warp Gates would really change the balance. Protoss would simply build one or two more Gateways and come up with the same production as they have now, so the only thing you achieve is a slight delay for early timings. Sooo - as I said above - the change should be made regardless, but for style reasons and not for power balance issues. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
And you say TvP is not underwhelming??? | ||
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Sabu113
United States11075 Posts
On August 07 2013 08:43 forsooth wrote: I don't think that's worded particularly well, even if the game is more or less balanced (I'd say it's in a decent state right now) there's always room to improve how the game itself functions in order to make it more fun to play. TvP for instance might be balanced, but it's also incredibly one-dimensional due to the MSC making Protoss extremely safe from early pressure. Basically what it means is that the only kind of all-in you'll ever see from a Terran is a pre-storm SCV pull, otherwise it's mandatory macro games. TvZ has more room for shenanigans but macro games are mandatory 4M from Terran because vipers and swarm hosts render any kind of composition that involves siege tanks useless. There's too much of a samey feel in all of Terran's non-mirror games anymore, and it's definitely to the detriment of the game. I'd say it's very productive to discuss design changes and how the game would have to be rebalanced to accommodate them, rather than just letting it continue on like it is. How do we change the mothershipcore without significantly changing the other races as well? Mothership core was a bandaid they stuck on the race because they didn't put enough development time into new unit ideas. It's as likely to change as warpgate. I still think we're eventually going to see big problems with medivac healing hellbats in the late game. And SHs are never ever going to be entertaining. edit: Downside to warpgate and what macromechanic does toss have? The wonders of chronoboost with build times pre-nerfed? edit2: And no one should read anything into WCS europe ro16 without looking at the games. Entirely deserved results for everyone involved. And it's pretty funny we're ignoring the rest of the GSL results :D | ||
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
On August 07 2013 13:50 larse wrote: Bang vs Hero Game 1 in today's Up&Down. And you say TvP is not underwhelming??? Also Byun vs Hero. Terran loses one engagement and its gg. Protosses can lose however many fights, as long as they have enough templars, Terran can never attack into them. | ||
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