On August 07 2013 01:48 Decendos wrote: well zerg felt and was slightly UP the first 3 months of HOTS but in the last 2 months it got even worse. and its not surprising at all after super infestor nerfs and not enough to compensate + lots of "useless" buffs like hatchtech burrow and ovispeed or offcreep hydraspeed while letting hydras stay the same shitty unit.
naruto i really like u on taketv and think ure pretty reasonable usually so i dont get how u come in here all the time to defend terran so much
with the latest winrates in korea which are and always were the most important stats iirc there hasnt been a month since the peak of 1/1/1 were one race had such bad stats (around 35% for both zvp and zvt)
i think if you step back a little you know its true as well, its not much but even a 55% winrate in a matchup is alarmingly imbalanced
55% winrate is the average winrate of zerg vs terran in wol of the last few months and you know what this does to race representation and tournament winners over a long time
no use trying to convince him, just give up. He's the type of Terran who wouldn't mind endless buffs to his race and endless nerfs to the other races.
Once again ignored all of my arguments... why do I even bother?
your arguments are flash and innovation are better than soulkey and life which is stupid since innovation > soulkey > life > flash right now. the other was WCG qualifier show TvZ is fine. TvZ is 10:6 once again for T. how does that prove TvZ is fine? it doesnt prove TvZ is imbalanced but it most definetly doesnt prove TvZ is fine.
Win rates for these qualifiers:
PvT 59–40 (60%) PvZ 53–53 (50%) TvZ 47–46 (51%)
10:6 ? I'm making stuff up? I am saying INnoVation and Flash are outstanding in the matchup and I didn't compare them to anyone. Also if you would check out proleague records, you would see INnoVation and Flash actually didn't play SoulKey and/or Life most of the time. You know why? Because first off all its the minority of the matches and secondly Life is not in proleague.
And yes, I do think about if Terran is potentially too strong, but since I don't see valid arguments on the high level besides INnoVation and Flash who have amazing records, where is your point? SoulKey could dominate most Terrans I dare to say.
where you got those numbers? 10:6 is korea.
WCG KOREA QUALIFIER.
What were you saying, Decendos, about reading posts properly. And, note, you and saddaromma still just bad-mouth me and Naruto. I write a long post, saddaromma deletes almost all of it, and instead of attacking the straw-man left, all he can say is that it's "ridiculous". If I thought it ridiculous, I would have not written it. So you need to actually argue WHY it is ridiculous. And all you say, Decendos, is that I don't read posts properly. As if the context is going to make 10-6 statistics any more valid. Naruto's nearly 100 games is nearly ten times better, and I would still say it's nearly useless data without aggregating it with a whole lot more data.
Bottom line, stop calling me ridiculous, dumb, biased, unable-to-read and whatnot. Argue your point. If TvZ is in a bad state, you should be able to convince us with arguments. And if we are biased, we should look silly arguing against you. Yet, I'd say it's looking quite the opposite.
okay here are the arguments...once again:
- you have to go mutas or die - WMs counter all 3 units that you have to go for: lings, banes and mutas - Z is always on the defensive OR has to do an early or early midgame roach bane all in - TvZ is broken in macro games: 3 base rally = slow death animation since Z is often unable to get 3 3 + hivetech + infestors + staying alive (not enough gas available) - MMMM whole game long while Z has to transition or die - 1 bad WM engagement = gg, 1 bad banehit /= gg since Z trades gas for minerals all game long
You don't have to go mutas. Ling/Bane/Muta is the most skillfull way to play on the highest level, yet HyuN or Symbol who play Roach Styles (Symbol tends to be a bit more timing based / allinish) both do fine on the very highest level of competition. If you want to elevate the highest level of competition to proleague, then obviously I cannot name Hyun, but I will say he has a far decent shot against nearly every Terran.
Yes, you don't have to go mutas, but Zerg has no alternative. Roach style requires you to be heavily ahead in Terran macro, or else Roach army vs Bio army on EQUAL macro means Roach style cannot win. Additionally, Terran can pickup-their bio army if the fight is going to look like its going to go bad for them - and escape. Mutas are a MUST, if you want to punish Terran for bad positioning or engagement. Otherwise, Terran can just pick up their losing army everytime and not lose anything. Especially since the infestor nerf. The only way Zergs can avoid going mutas if fungal got buffed again.
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote: WM on their own cannot counter everything. Widowmines only become useful when you are a master with them and can be very letdown as well. The unit is good in the hands of a masterful player and can be negated or minimized by a skillfull player. While I do believe it may be too strong in itself and needs tweaks, its not overpowered to the extent that it allows a weaker Terran to rule over a better Zerg.
WD are not SUPPOSED to counter everything, they are used as support units. On the contrary, widow mines is more luck-dependent and less skill-dependent than any other unit because of their random firing. You try to make it sound like unit is good only in the hands of a master player..what a load of bullshit. No one complained about just Widow mines alone. We complained about how it's being used in combination with the current bio army. Tanks could be picked off if the bio army had to retreat because the unsiege took a while, but mines can just pop off and run with the bio army.
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote: Zergs are not always forced on the defensive, as SoulKey did show in some games against INnoVation, as do KangHo, RorO and others. While those didn't have great success this season, aggressive Zergs are lacking because its more benefitial to tech and transition into hive, because utras are very strong than to attack into Terran for several reasons. (lack of creepspread at the Terran-base etc)
Of course Zergs are not always forced on the defensive..the matchup would be even more broken if that was the case. No, the real reason aggressive Zergs are lacking is because Terran army is too cost efficient and mules. Innovation vs Soulkey showed us that Zergs can devote to a semi all-in and lose the game EVEN with massive SCV kills because mules will compensate , and Terran army with good micro can just win the fuck in terms of trading. (Imagine 1 marauder tanking several baneling hits while the bio army just pummels the hell outta the Z army).
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote: We don't play 4M because 'we like to abuse' - we play 4M because there is no option given to Terran that allows a good transition. Battlecruisers are an option against ultras in the very lategame (as is skyterran) but the transition takes very long, doesn't share upgrades (as would the ultra transition (same argument as roach/hydra into ultra for example) and is expensive + slow. TvZ is mostly action packed and sitting back 2 minutes might be your doom as Terran.
No, 4M is played because it is the best option, and there is no reason to invest in multiple starports and wait forever for BCs to come out, when you can crush your opponent with basic marines, marauders, mines, and medivacs. It's way more mobile, and it's much more forgiving in terms of losing them. The only race that can kill other races's T3 with their T1. Why the hell would you wait till T3 to kill your opponent when can you do it easily with your T1?
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote: The same can be applied for Terran, one bad fight in midgame against muta/ling/bane and unreliable mine hits and the Zerg could be at your natural or ravaging your 3rd, depending on map size and style. Its a good and dangerous style for both parties. While I believe its more 'true' in some extent on masterful level towards Zerg, the same situation occurs for Terran in lategame, a big(ger) engagement or bad fight against an ultra based army (infestor can hold you in place and force a fight) you will be lost as you lose all your punch or potentially production capability.
A Zerg hatchery will pop is a few seconds after the Terran army goes to it. A Terran expansion can be saved easily with just lifting the OC. I've seen many many games where Terran loses a bunch of medivacs and still comes back as strong as ever. If a Zerg loses his mutas before he can successfully transition into hive tech, he will most likely lose the game. Terran has no "lose these units and you die" in TvZ compared to Zerg in the same matchup. Terran is much easily forgiven than Zerg in this matchup.
On August 06 2013 03:23 NarutO wrote: As you can see, while I don't disagree with the statement of Zvt being hard, its hard for both parties and requires skillful play by both. Little tweaks I would like to hear, but right now no one actually brings out a wish for a tweak, buff or nerf.
Of course you don't want a buff or nerf. A buff to Terran would mean that even the biased posters can't deny the matchup is broken because it becomes so glaringly obvious. And as for nerfs, you would not even want a height nerf for a marine. That's pretty much your reputation on this thread.
Thanks for taking time to respond in a proper fashion. Personally I feel that your grasp on the match up is lacking. You either seem to overestimate Terran in itself or underestimate the work that is put into the games to make it look like INnoVation does. While I would personally say that Terran has highest potential and is the best race if played to perfection, I believe not even a handful of Terrans are capable of playing to perfection (obviously human perfection, no one can be automaton).
To your points:
As mentioned, Zerg doesn't have to go mutas. Thats what the guy previously stated and its wrong. There are up and downs to every style and for the roach style its having to invest into static defence or being able to have a constant eye on the minimap so you can properly react. Also in addition to that, knowing how to split your army (i.e how much to send to drops) is crucial. While that is the disadvantage, the advantage is that its pretty 'easy' (for a pro obviously) to play as roaches are massed easily and don't require as perfect injects as muta/ling/bane. Furthermore the fights roach/bane especially against low-mine situations (that evolve through the game) its a very hard style for Terran to beat, as its actually quiet strong. For example SoulKeys 3 base timing is insane and very hard to hold, even with tanks for a 'normal person'.
So all I said is, there are alternatives to how you can play with up and downs obviously, but there are options.
Widowmines are not meant to counter everything. That is correct and the guy I quoted said they do - they don't. Simply that and nothing more was my point. You are saying that widowmines are hugely luck dependant - how so? They are unreliable if you don't control them , I can agree to that and if you don't control them, Zerg can take the pace and try to minimize the hits. That is skill in big parts micro and engagements. If Terran does micro the mines to counter splitting, this is skill in the same fashion. So you can see, both parties can work on the mine to be effective or not so effective. You will see INnoVation and Flashs mines are way 'superior' to mine for example. I am not a bad player by any means, but I am high enough level to call you out on it, its not luck-based but skill based. (Dwf vs STLife shows insane anti-mine control)
Don't get me wrong, I for my part would love marine/tank back and viable, but the new - stronger - mutalisk allows for higher sustainability and higher amounts, making it very hard to actually do something with marine/tank. Usually you can push out quiet late, as you need a crucial amount of tanks. I feel Blizzard wanted to 'cover' that area of the game and allow Terrans do pressure while getting tanks. Truth is, the new mutalisk raids your production and easily picks of tanks and that alone buys enough time to make your push so weak that it gets potentially crushed. In addition the Zerg that figures out you are going tanks will have no problem having a 4 base saturation long before you push and potential hive. Furthermore the marine/tank builds simply don't transition that well into the lategame. Ideally you want reactors and not techlabs on your barracks, so you would either cut down reactors (not build them in the first place) and switch to pure bio/mine after the transition hits, but since there is really no benefit from tanks right now, you are better off going bio mine in the first place.
My personal suggestion would be speeding up tank-siege so they have their downside (speed, forced in position when sieged) but also stay viable. Starcraft 2 is a lot faster and if you are at the edge of creep or worse on creep, before your tanks siege and fired Zerg can be close to you. Not even to mention that leapfrogging while in itself is obviously a good method to advance, takes time and if you play marine/tank you don't have much time. You want to trade before any ultras are on the field. Potentially buffing tanks vs ultras could also work. You want variety? Here you go - if you don't make marine/tank viable at the highest level because it lacks mobility and can be abused it will never be played again outside of vs roach/hydra or roach/bane.
4M is superior in any way and I agree with it, the problem is - that is not 'our' fault, but the designs fault. I still don't agree with you saying its T1 for Terran. While Terran has no tiers to begin with, if you want to apply the Tier system, Medivacs would be T3, Mines would be T2.
While it is true that usually you would not win an engagement as Zerg (if you don't win it crushingly) you cannot push into Terran, the same applies for Terran. If he doesn't completely crush you in the engagement, he won't be able to instantly push into you, especially at maxed out fights Terran rarely wins without dropping themselves into supply. I feel like while you call me out as biased, you simply don't experience the high-level TvZ I do or you don't understand the TvZs you watch. While we are exposed to the likes of INnoVation and Flash you can take a good look at Flash vs hyvaa on Newkirk. While Flash won that game (for various reasons) there is one situation where he forced to take a full engagement because one fungal hits. You dumb down the match up by a lot while its such a complex and difficult matchup for both parties and by no means is TvZ a forgiving matchup, for no one.
I took my time to respond to you in proper manner and put effort into it, now you once again call me biased which is untrue. I am all for tweaks/buffs and nerfs if it helps but I simply do not agree that Zerg is underperforming when Zerg right now statistically (tournamnet winners) has the most tournaments won since heart of the swarm. Do you simply ignore the fact that most tournaments are won by Zerg? I agree that at some tournaments, better Zergs or in higher quantity were present, but that doesn't mean you can completely make those results void.
I made suggestions and asked for them, but up until now very few people came up with thoughtful buffs/nerfs. I never try to "abuse" my race, I didnt in WoL, I don't do know. I 1-1-1'd in WoL because I was desperate and my TvP bad, I found it imbalanced and used it - but if you really believe I want a all-dominating Terran race, you know nothing about me. I picked Terran in broodwar over 10 years ago because it was the hardest race when it was still unexplored and known as weak and unwinnable with - and you call me out as wanting to be someone that only gets easy wins? You make yourself look stupid with it...
@Naruto: I made a big post on balance tweaks that I would love to see for all races a few pages ago. Do you think any combination of some of those would make sense?
On August 06 2013 05:19 Big J wrote: Hey, I thought as I participate so much in those discussions, I could as well write up a patch with (hopefully not gamebreaking, but hopefully diversity enforcing) changes that I would like to see.
Blinding Cloud reduces range by 5 instead of to melee. Least acquired range by affected units is still melee range.
Radius increased to 3.0 from 2.0.
Energy cost increased to 125 from 100.
This should make the Viper better against mobile troops which still get their range reduced to melee or very low range. They take longer to dodge the clouds. Meanwhile the Blinding Cloud does not completely shut down stationary defenses and longrange units anymore. Hopefully the Viper will now be better against Terran bio and Zerg Roach/Hydra styles, while not shutting down Terran Siege Tanks completely.
The Grooved Spines upgrade now requires a Hive to upgrade
Its effect now grants +2 range instead of +1 range.
Research cost increased to 200/200 from 150/150.
The Hydralisk is still underperforming in the Zerg lategame, especially against Terran bio-play and protoss air-play with splash support. The extra range should deviate them more from those units and keep those fragile units a little further away from attackers, while also helping zerg to deal with Terran dropplay without going mutalisks.
Damage changed from 20(+30vs armored) to 30(+20vs massive).
Build time reduced from 55 to 45 seconds.
Immortals are currently very powerful at breaking defensive positions early on, but not very useful against nonarmored units. This change should reduce the viability of Immortalbased frontal aggression, while allowing a Protoss to delay their hightech units a little bit longer in the midgame.
Interceptor damage changed from 5 to 4(+2vs light).
Carriers have seen little play up to now. This change should help Protoss Airarmies when dealing with lategame Terran bio-play and lategame zerg Locust/Hydralisk armies and give the Carrier a role within the Protoss Airarmies. On the flipside, Carriers will now be worse against Terran Factory and Air Units, especially Thors and Vikings.
Damage changed from 10(+10vs light) to 10(+10vs biological).
Ghosts are currently only used against Protoss. This change won't touch their exciting relations with the currently used Protoss armies, but may help bringing this unit back in the Terran vs Zerg matchup.
The Siege Tanks attack undergoes the following changes:
Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
Splash damage percentages changed: 100% damage area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored) 50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored) 25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
The problem with buffing tanks is that - as has been showed in numerous TvZs and TvTs - its main use is splash support in biomech builds. Tanks are mainly being used to kill marines, zerglings/banelings, so that your own marines can have a ball afterwards. A buff to the tank should be done in a way that does not buff it vs those units it is already good against. It should be done in a way that the tank is better against the (ground) units it is currently mediocre or straight up bad right now: zealots, immortals, colossi, ultralisks, Archons, hellbats. Those units have one thing in common: they don't clump as hard as the smaller units against which the tank is really good. Therefore it would be logical to increase the main target damage, but leave the absolute splash damage the same.
- Thanks to NarutO for giving me the idea to post my tweaks. (though some of the stuff is a little more than small - but most of them minus the tank, the viper and the immortal hopefully not overly gamechanging)
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
You call me out as a terrible player, thats my response. Usually a grudgematch has something to it. (Ban, change of signature etc) You can also reply to the arguments in my last post "paper thin"
More strawmen I see. Please point out with a quote where I called you a terrible player. I questioned whether you actually play the game since you tried to claim the WM doesn't one shot anything 3 times more expensive. It seems like this stung a little as you've decided to make it your mission to derail the thread since you were proven to be just rambling.
NarutO wrote: How does he completely misplays the situation? What would the proper reaction vs a potential stargate be? (It could have been blink, stargate, proxy dt, proxy robo...) He got an ebay and turrets for both economy lines as well as his production. Please elaborate how he could have potentially reacted better?
Provide the replay or the VOD. All we have currently is your word on what happened, and your word is that he made 3 turrets vs an Oracle which is completely excessive, and he lost 5 Marines despite being completely safe under just 1 turret's radius.
Its great that you call him out as misplaying the situation, when you haven't actually seen the game. The turret at the barracks didn't finish in time because guess what - oracle is fast and proxied its very quick into Terrans base (thats the real problem). He played an as good reaction as possible and still suffered damage, you need your economy lines covered and the production-turret is actually smart, as a potential second oracle or voidray can do massive amounts to you, if you don't have your production covered.
You questioning me if I play the game at all, because I disagree with you? What about question if I potentially play on a higher level than you and actually get to play vs people that can control their oracle and execute builds properly? Saying an oracle is a paperfly dying to everything and has no potential or 1 mine shuts down all oracle play... really. :x
You both could probably fill a thread of your own :>
I think balance is quite good at the moment, maybe slightly of in TvZ ( in favour of T) and PvT ( in favour of P), but thats only my point of view from the games i watch. The only thing i'd like to be changed, or atleast a little bit tweaked, is production. Z and P can both remax insanly fast, while T has a huge problem if they loose a fight lategame. No idea how to do that though.. A solution could be the tech reactors from the campaign but that is way over the top and kind of stupid... Edit: Maybe limit the range from warpgates? that way you cant warp in all over the map but only in a range of 2000 or so ( random number). I'd also like to limit the max larva on hatcheries, would encourage more macro hatcherys and the zerg would have to make a decision between more queens ( = more larva, less max army supply) and more free supply (=less larva, slightly stronger army)
On August 07 2013 02:09 Big J wrote: @Naruto: I made a big post on balance tweaks that I would love to see for all races a few pages ago. Do you think any combination of some of those would make sense?
On August 06 2013 05:19 Big J wrote: Hey, I thought as I participate so much in those discussions, I could as well write up a patch with (hopefully not gamebreaking, but hopefully diversity enforcing) changes that I would like to see.
Blinding Cloud reduces range by 5 instead of to melee. Least acquired range by affected units is still melee range.
Radius increased to 3.0 from 2.0.
Energy cost increased to 125 from 100.
This should make the Viper better against mobile troops which still get their range reduced to melee or very low range. They take longer to dodge the clouds. Meanwhile the Blinding Cloud does not completely shut down stationary defenses and longrange units anymore. Hopefully the Viper will now be better against Terran bio and Zerg Roach/Hydra styles, while not shutting down Terran Siege Tanks completely.
The Grooved Spines upgrade now requires a Hive to upgrade
Its effect now grants +2 range instead of +1 range.
Research cost increased to 200/200 from 150/150.
The Hydralisk is still underperforming in the Zerg lategame, especially against Terran bio-play and protoss air-play with splash support. The extra range should deviate them more from those units and keep those fragile units a little further away from attackers, while also helping zerg to deal with Terran dropplay without going mutalisks.
Damage changed from 20(+30vs armored) to 30(+20vs massive).
Build time reduced from 55 to 45 seconds.
Immortals are currently very powerful at breaking defensive positions early on, but not very useful against nonarmored units. This change should reduce the viability of Immortalbased frontal aggression, while allowing a Protoss to delay their hightech units a little bit longer in the midgame.
Interceptor damage changed from 5 to 4(+2vs light).
Carriers have seen little play up to now. This change should help Protoss Airarmies when dealing with lategame Terran bio-play and lategame zerg Locust/Hydralisk armies and give the Carrier a role within the Protoss Airarmies. On the flipside, Carriers will now be worse against Terran Factory and Air Units, especially Thors and Vikings.
Damage changed from 10(+10vs light) to 10(+10vs biological).
Ghosts are currently only used against Protoss. This change won't touch their exciting relations with the currently used Protoss armies, but may help bringing this unit back in the Terran vs Zerg matchup.
The Siege Tanks attack undergoes the following changes:
Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
Splash damage percentages changed: 100% damage area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored) 50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored) 25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
The problem with buffing tanks is that - as has been showed in numerous TvZs and TvTs - its main use is splash support in biomech builds. Tanks are mainly being used to kill marines, zerglings/banelings, so that your own marines can have a ball afterwards. A buff to the tank should be done in a way that does not buff it vs those units it is already good against. It should be done in a way that the tank is better against the (ground) units it is currently mediocre or straight up bad right now: zealots, immortals, colossi, ultralisks, Archons, hellbats. Those units have one thing in common: they don't clump as hard as the smaller units against which the tank is really good. Therefore it would be logical to increase the main target damage, but leave the absolute splash damage the same.
- Thanks to NarutO for giving me the idea to post my tweaks. (though some of the stuff is a little more than small - but most of them minus the tank, the viper and the immortal hopefully not overly gamechanging)
I'll go over it, but I'm not really in the mood to write very in depth analysis. Thats why I didn't reply to your post in the first place, because you put effort into it and I wanted to reply when I feel like it (because its worth a answer that is written in effort and not in a hurry)
Overseer speed buff While I feel the general idea is good, I think there might be a few downsides to it. First of all it would rush ahead in engagements and you don't want that. Obviously you can babysit, but are you sure you want a muta-fast overseer?
Secondly what came to mind is that there's really no way to catch it scouting everything, as even stim marines cannot really chase it, so that might be a bit too strong. It would be worth a try on PTR I guess to see how it evolves but I feel the current overseer would do the job just fine.
Blinding Cloud you made such a huge change suggestion, I would need time to think about it. Don't really want to comment on it.
Roach Burrow Buff I don't think it will help Zerg in lategame, as lategame roaches are usually very bad. They are supply inefficient if you are maxed out and this will in my opinion greatly affect ZvZ or ZvP, but not so much ZvT since its a hive upgrade. I wouldn't mind it at all as Terran so if Zerg feel like this is needed against Terran, put it on PTR, I just feel its not a very useful thing.
Hydrabuff I feel the hydra already has enough DPS and the additional range would make it insanely sick. Its already like a marine if it doesn't die as it dishes out insane amounts of damage. It doesn't need a buff in that department. I could potentially see a rangebuff if you make it a bit beefier but lower the DPS. (once again, very hard to value data, Blizzard could do that a lot better)
Photon Overcharge Nerf I don't think that makes a difference - I really don't mind photon overcharge. I mind the timewarp and the offensive potential a lot more. So... I disagree with nerfing photon overcharge.
Uh-Oh ... Immortal BUFF I feel like. It does less damage vs armored with your suggestion, but it does better vs mariens and better vs anything else that is not armored. Also your buff in building time will make the immortal timings even faster and stronger and 5g immortal bust is already a critical and very hard to hold off build. In addition I think this change alone will make the soultrain not viable anymore since roaches are armored.
Ghost I don't think this change will bring them back against Zerg, as they are already 'good' against Zerg not with snipe vs normal units, but vs the infestor as it got buffed and 2-shots the infestor.
Hellion/Hellbat I like the suggestion, but I have no idea how it will play out and I feel like this would bring back hellbat drops once again in TvT or other matchups potentially leading in a huge outcry again.
Tank too much of a buff, would destroy TvT so hard. Imagine 70 damage on marauders, thats 2 shot instead of 3... thats a huge buff and I dare to say doesn't really help the TvZ matchup to evolve. A buff against massive (colossi/ultras) would actually be better I guess since the lategame transition with ultras gives marine/tank trouble.
On August 07 2013 02:09 Big J wrote: @Naruto: I made a big post on balance tweaks that I would love to see for all races a few pages ago. Do you think any combination of some of those would make sense?
On August 06 2013 05:19 Big J wrote: Hey, I thought as I participate so much in those discussions, I could as well write up a patch with (hopefully not gamebreaking, but hopefully diversity enforcing) changes that I would like to see.
Blinding Cloud reduces range by 5 instead of to melee. Least acquired range by affected units is still melee range.
Radius increased to 3.0 from 2.0.
Energy cost increased to 125 from 100.
This should make the Viper better against mobile troops which still get their range reduced to melee or very low range. They take longer to dodge the clouds. Meanwhile the Blinding Cloud does not completely shut down stationary defenses and longrange units anymore. Hopefully the Viper will now be better against Terran bio and Zerg Roach/Hydra styles, while not shutting down Terran Siege Tanks completely.
The Grooved Spines upgrade now requires a Hive to upgrade
Its effect now grants +2 range instead of +1 range.
Research cost increased to 200/200 from 150/150.
The Hydralisk is still underperforming in the Zerg lategame, especially against Terran bio-play and protoss air-play with splash support. The extra range should deviate them more from those units and keep those fragile units a little further away from attackers, while also helping zerg to deal with Terran dropplay without going mutalisks.
Damage changed from 20(+30vs armored) to 30(+20vs massive).
Build time reduced from 55 to 45 seconds.
Immortals are currently very powerful at breaking defensive positions early on, but not very useful against nonarmored units. This change should reduce the viability of Immortalbased frontal aggression, while allowing a Protoss to delay their hightech units a little bit longer in the midgame.
Interceptor damage changed from 5 to 4(+2vs light).
Carriers have seen little play up to now. This change should help Protoss Airarmies when dealing with lategame Terran bio-play and lategame zerg Locust/Hydralisk armies and give the Carrier a role within the Protoss Airarmies. On the flipside, Carriers will now be worse against Terran Factory and Air Units, especially Thors and Vikings.
Damage changed from 10(+10vs light) to 10(+10vs biological).
Ghosts are currently only used against Protoss. This change won't touch their exciting relations with the currently used Protoss armies, but may help bringing this unit back in the Terran vs Zerg matchup.
The Siege Tanks attack undergoes the following changes:
Tank damage from 35(+15vs armored) to 50(+20vs armored)
Splash damage percentages changed: 100% damage area around the main target changed to 70% damage (=from 35+15vs armored to 35+14vs armored) 50% area changed to 35% (=from 17.5+7.5vs armored to 17.5+7vs armored) 25% area changed to 17.5% (=from 8.75+3.75vs armored to 8.75+3.5vs armored)
Upgrade bonus changed from 3(+2vs armored) to 5(+2vs armored)
The problem with buffing tanks is that - as has been showed in numerous TvZs and TvTs - its main use is splash support in biomech builds. Tanks are mainly being used to kill marines, zerglings/banelings, so that your own marines can have a ball afterwards. A buff to the tank should be done in a way that does not buff it vs those units it is already good against. It should be done in a way that the tank is better against the (ground) units it is currently mediocre or straight up bad right now: zealots, immortals, colossi, ultralisks, Archons, hellbats. Those units have one thing in common: they don't clump as hard as the smaller units against which the tank is really good. Therefore it would be logical to increase the main target damage, but leave the absolute splash damage the same.
- Thanks to NarutO for giving me the idea to post my tweaks. (though some of the stuff is a little more than small - but most of them minus the tank, the viper and the immortal hopefully not overly gamechanging)
I'll go over it, but I'm not really in the mood to write very in depth analysis. Thats why I didn't reply to your post in the first place, because you put effort into it and I wanted to reply when I feel like it (because its worth a answer that is written in effort and not in a hurry)
Overseer speed buff While I feel the general idea is good, I think there might be a few downsides to it. First of all it would rush ahead in engagements and you don't want that. Obviously you can babysit, but are you sure you want a muta-fast overseer?
Secondly what came to mind is that there's really no way to catch it scouting everything, as even stim marines cannot really chase it, so that might be a bit too strong. It would be worth a try on PTR I guess to see how it evolves but I feel the current overseer would do the job just fine.
Blinding Cloud you made such a huge change suggestion, I would need time to think about it. Don't really want to comment on it.
Roach Burrow Buff I don't think it will help Zerg in lategame, as lategame roaches are usually very bad. They are supply inefficient if you are maxed out and this will in my opinion greatly affect ZvZ or ZvP, but not so much ZvT since its a hive upgrade. I wouldn't mind it at all as Terran so if Zerg feel like this is needed against Terran, put it on PTR, I just feel its not a very useful thing.
Hydrabuff I feel the hydra already has enough DPS and the additional range would make it insanely sick. Its already like a marine if it doesn't die as it dishes out insane amounts of damage. It doesn't need a buff in that department. I could potentially see a rangebuff if you make it a bit beefier but lower the DPS. (once again, very hard to value data, Blizzard could do that a lot better)
Photon Overcharge Nerf I don't think that makes a difference - I really don't mind photon overcharge. I mind the timewarp and the offensive potential a lot more. So... I disagree with nerfing photon overcharge.
Uh-Oh ... Immortal BUFF I feel like. It does less damage vs armored with your suggestion, but it does better vs mariens and better vs anything else that is not armored. Also your buff in building time will make the immortal timings even faster and stronger and 5g immortal bust is already a critical and very hard to hold off build. In addition I think this change alone will make the soultrain not viable anymore since roaches are armored.
Ghost I don't think this change will bring them back against Zerg, as they are already 'good' against Zerg not with snipe vs normal units, but vs the infestor as it got buffed and 2-shots the infestor.
Hellion/Hellbat I like the suggestion, but I have no idea how it will play out and I feel like this would bring back hellbat drops once again in TvT or other matchups potentially leading in a huge outcry again.
Tank too much of a buff, would destroy TvT so hard. Imagine 70 damage on marauders, thats 2 shot instead of 3... thats a huge buff and I dare to say doesn't really help the TvZ matchup to evolve. A buff against massive (colossi/ultras) would actually be better I guess since the lategame transition with ultras gives marine/tank trouble.
Ty, I think this is quite in depth compared to most other things you read around here. Just some responses and then I'll let it be.
The immortal one is surely the most experimental one and there is no real need to change the immortal for balance reasons at that point. Though I think immortal allins in PvT and PvZ are very strong and this could ease it.
I know the roaches aren't good in the lategame - and this kind of thing could make it better for roachbased play to trade them off in the lategame. Like right now, you are often sitting on those bigass roach armies towards the lategame when you go for a roach/hydra, roach/baneling, roach/swarmhost style in any matchup and you can't really do anything with them if the opponent has any form of map awareness. This could help out a tiny bit.
Well, I think it wouldn't hurt the ghost, would it? Like, they are still worse than marines/marauders in terms of damageoutput per cost and per supply. It would just make them more useful in the situations where you right now don't get them to deal with casters.
Tank, hm, your probably right. Might be too good vs roach/marauder/stalkers, but I think this would need some testing as well.
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
You call me out as a terrible player, thats my response. Usually a grudgematch has something to it. (Ban, change of signature etc) You can also reply to the arguments in my last post "paper thin"
More strawmen I see. Please point out with a quote where I called you a terrible player. I questioned whether you actually play the game since you tried to claim the WM doesn't one shot anything 3 times more expensive. It seems like this stung a little as you've decided to make it your mission to derail the thread since you were proven to be just rambling.
NarutO wrote: How does he completely misplays the situation? What would the proper reaction vs a potential stargate be? (It could have been blink, stargate, proxy dt, proxy robo...) He got an ebay and turrets for both economy lines as well as his production. Please elaborate how he could have potentially reacted better?
Provide the replay or the VOD. All we have currently is your word on what happened, and your word is that he made 3 turrets vs an Oracle which is completely excessive, and he lost 5 Marines despite being completely safe under just 1 turret's radius.
Its great that you call him out as misplaying the situation, when you haven't actually seen the game. The turret at the barracks didn't finish in time because guess what - oracle is fast and proxied its very quick into Terrans base (thats the real problem). He played an as good reaction as possible and still suffered damage, you need your economy lines covered and the production-turret is actually smart, as a potential second oracle or voidray can do massive amounts to you, if you don't have your production covered.
You questioning me if I play the game at all, because I disagree with you? What about question if I potentially play on a higher level than you and actually get to play vs people that can control their oracle and execute builds properly? Saying an oracle is a paperfly dying to everything and has no potential or 1 mine shuts down all oracle play... really. :x
You both could probably fill a thread of your own :>
I think balance is quite good at the moment, maybe slightly of in TvZ ( in favour of T) and PvT ( in favour of P), but thats only my point of view from the games i watch. The only thing i'd like to be changed, or atleast a little bit tweaked, is production. Z and P can both remax insanly fast, while T has a huge problem if they loose a fight lategame. No idea how to do that though.. A solution could be the tech reactors from the campaign but that is way over the top and kind of stupid... Edit: Maybe limit the range from warpgates? that way you cant warp in all over the map but only in a range of 2000 or so ( random number). I'd also like to limit the max larva on hatcheries, would encourage more macro hatcherys and the zerg would have to make a decision between more queens ( = more larva, less max army supply) and more free supply (=less larva, slightly stronger army)
Good suggestion but terrible ideas to fix it. The tech reactors from the campaign speed up tech lab units as well and that distorts the whole ratio IMO and could make Marauders too powerful because too easily produced. Changing / increasing the Warp Gate cooldown will NOT change anything apart from requiring Protoss to get an additional Warp Gate for the same amount of production (on average). Asymmetric production speed boosts on top of asymmetric production is just a tad too unstable to predict IMO and adding too much importance to the production isnt good either. Starcraft is supposed to be a strategy game where using your units is important instead of a resource manager simulation where you try a lot of different things to just get out one unit more on the battlefield or to find a critical timing when to switch from economy to production.
The only reasonable solution is to take all of the production speed boosts out of the game and start on a "BW level of production". The three races have thee different ways to produce units with Zerg being the most radically different one. On top of that Blizzard has stuffed the production speed boosts and that is a really really bad idea, because it puts too much emphasis on "timings" and shifts the advantage of production between the three races with Terrans having an early lead (if they so desire), Protoss kicking in once they have researched Warp Gate and then Zerg taking over completely when they have a certain number of hatcheries and Queens set up to produce larvae and they stop producing drones from those larvae regularly as well. It is a bad idea to give a race an advantage at some time because it means that one race will end up with the advantage in the late game and quite obviously that "has to be" balanced so there is a decent chance for that last race to get there or else a lot of kids will be whining on the forums. The ability to stockpile larvae basically means "additional production capability for energy" and that is a HUGE advantage over the other two races.
Obviously - since both Inject Larvae and Chronoboost are used for production speed boost AND economic speed boost - you have to take out all the economic speed boosts as well, but since there are always kids whining about the MULE (like people did a few pages back in this thread) that should be just fine.
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
You call me out as a terrible player, thats my response. Usually a grudgematch has something to it. (Ban, change of signature etc) You can also reply to the arguments in my last post "paper thin"
More strawmen I see. Please point out with a quote where I called you a terrible player. I questioned whether you actually play the game since you tried to claim the WM doesn't one shot anything 3 times more expensive. It seems like this stung a little as you've decided to make it your mission to derail the thread since you were proven to be just rambling.
NarutO wrote: How does he completely misplays the situation? What would the proper reaction vs a potential stargate be? (It could have been blink, stargate, proxy dt, proxy robo...) He got an ebay and turrets for both economy lines as well as his production. Please elaborate how he could have potentially reacted better?
Provide the replay or the VOD. All we have currently is your word on what happened, and your word is that he made 3 turrets vs an Oracle which is completely excessive, and he lost 5 Marines despite being completely safe under just 1 turret's radius.
Its great that you call him out as misplaying the situation, when you haven't actually seen the game. The turret at the barracks didn't finish in time because guess what - oracle is fast and proxied its very quick into Terrans base (thats the real problem). He played an as good reaction as possible and still suffered damage, you need your economy lines covered and the production-turret is actually smart, as a potential second oracle or voidray can do massive amounts to you, if you don't have your production covered.
You questioning me if I play the game at all, because I disagree with you? What about question if I potentially play on a higher level than you and actually get to play vs people that can control their oracle and execute builds properly? Saying an oracle is a paperfly dying to everything and has no potential or 1 mine shuts down all oracle play... really. :x
You both could probably fill a thread of your own :>
I think balance is quite good at the moment, maybe slightly of in TvZ ( in favour of T) and PvT ( in favour of P), but thats only my point of view from the games i watch. The only thing i'd like to be changed, or atleast a little bit tweaked, is production. Z and P can both remax insanly fast, while T has a huge problem if they loose a fight lategame. No idea how to do that though.. A solution could be the tech reactors from the campaign but that is way over the top and kind of stupid... Edit: Maybe limit the range from warpgates? that way you cant warp in all over the map but only in a range of 2000 or so ( random number). I'd also like to limit the max larva on hatcheries, would encourage more macro hatcherys and the zerg would have to make a decision between more queens ( = more larva, less max army supply) and more free supply (=less larva, slightly stronger army)
Good suggestion but terrible ideas to fix it. The tech reactors from the campaign speed up tech lab units as well and that distorts the whole ratio IMO and could make Marauders too powerful because too easily produced. Changing / increasing the Warp Gate cooldown will NOT change anything apart from requiring Protoss to get an additional Warp Gate for the same amount of production (on average). Asymmetric production speed boosts on top of asymmetric production is just a tad too unstable to predict IMO and adding too much importance to the production isnt good either. Starcraft is supposed to be a strategy game where using your units is important instead of a resource manager simulation where you try a lot of different things to just get out one unit more on the battlefield or to find a critical timing when to switch from economy to production.
The only reasonable solution is to take all of the production speed boosts out of the game and start on a "BW level of production". The three races have thee different ways to produce units with Zerg being the most radically different one. On top of that Blizzard has stuffed the production speed boosts and that is a really really bad idea, because it puts too much emphasis on "timings" and shifts the advantage of production between the three races with Terrans having an early lead (if they so desire), Protoss kicking in once they have researched Warp Gate and then Zerg taking over completely when they have a certain number of hatcheries and Queens set up to produce larvae and they stop producing drones from those larvae regularly as well. It is a bad idea to give a race an advantage at some time because it means that one race will end up with the advantage in the late game and quite obviously that "has to be" balanced so there is a decent chance for that last race to get there or else a lot of kids will be whining on the forums. The ability to stockpile larvae basically means "additional production capability for energy" and that is a HUGE advantage over the other two races.
Obviously - since both Inject Larvae and Chronoboost are used for production speed boost AND economic speed boost - you have to take out all the economic speed boosts as well, but since there are always kids whining about the MULE (like people did a few pages back in this thread) that should be just fine.
Well as i said, Tech reactor is a bad idea. It was the only thing i could come up with but i didnt think myself it would be good... Also, im not suggesting to change the COOLDOWN but instead give warpgate a max RANGE in which you can warp in. I dont have problems with asymetric production, the game would be pretty boring if all were the same. Also, production boosts CAN stay in my view, just have to be at a reasonable ammount. I think its pretty bad that a zerg can remax on 4 hatcheries ( assuming you saved some larva and dont max on lings).. but i dont think any of this will change. This would be a massive change and i dont think blizzard will ever consider something this big.
I don't care how you do it, just create some downside to warpgate.
There's a shitload of possible ways to do it, create some strategic tradeoff between forward reinforcement, and production capacity. Personally I'd like un-warped gates to have better production speed than their warpgate equivalents.
To avoid proxy gates being OP, just make warpgate research add the + production speed bonus to unwarped gates.
Protoss = OP = More players play Protoss = When Protoss doesn't perform a little bit = More people complain about Protoss UP than other race = Blizzard buffs Protoss = Protoss = OP = More players play Protoss = ........
Korean Protoss goes to Europe to collect money. Sure this is a balance problem... Just change the WCS system already, so sad that blizzard is going to wait until next year to change it.
On August 07 2013 05:33 Big J wrote: Korean Protoss goes to Europe to collect money. Sure this is a balance problem... Just change the WCS system already, so sad that blizzard is going to wait until next year to change it.
Only one of 4 Protoss who advanced till now is Korean. There were also more Korean Terran than Protoss. Also yesterday 2 foreing Protoss eliminated Korean Terran, so to summarize this was preety weak argument
On August 07 2013 05:33 Big J wrote: Korean Protoss goes to Europe to collect money. Sure this is a balance problem... Just change the WCS system already, so sad that blizzard is going to wait until next year to change it.
A game of starcraft was played. If you follow this thread you might have noticed that there were some complaints here about protoss being too safe early game TvP, able to get away with super greedy builds and gain the tech advantage way too fast for the T to hold or react.
I think this game illustrates the problem pretty well, so if anyone else follows this issue - just go watch it.
On August 07 2013 05:28 larse wrote: Protoss = OP = More players play Protoss = When Protoss doesn't perform a little bit = More people complain about Protoss UP than other race = Blizzard buffs Protoss = Protoss = OP = More players play Protoss = ........
The vicious circle it is.
I'm sorry what??? When has Protoss EVER at any point in either expansion been OP to start this "circle" of yours. One player has more GSL titles than our entire race! Protoss can be strong in the lower leagues, but Protoss has consistently been the lowest performing race of all time in Starcraft 2.
I'm a masters Terran and switching to Zerg myself because I find the race fun. I'm not stupid enough to believe perceived imbalances at the highest level affect me at all.
On August 07 2013 05:33 Big J wrote: Korean Protoss goes to Europe to collect money. Sure this is a balance problem... Just change the WCS system already, so sad that blizzard is going to wait until next year to change it.
A game of starcraft was played. If you follow this thread you might have noticed that there were some complaints here about protoss being too safe early game TvP, able to get away with super greedy builds and gain the tech advantage way too fast for the T to hold or react.
I think this game illustrates the problem pretty well, so if anyone else follows this issue - just go watch it.
People put too much stock in "tech advantage". I mean, it matters, but different races are different. Stimmed marines are technically tier 1.5, but i don't complain when stalkers can't trade equally with them. Because the races dont work the same way.
Right now TvP is more or less balanced, or at least more balanced than it has been in a while. (there is a ~3% discrepancy across premier tournaments, which is pretty good imo)
You say toss goes for "greedy" builds when terran regularly baracks-> CC or even CC firsts... Sure toss can now be "greedier than before", but that doesn't actually mean anything.... only results give meaningful insight... and atm it seems terrans are doing just fine. I do see potential for PvT to become heavily P favored, but you nerf something when it becomes a problem, not because of a WMG.
If anything, i find ZvT to be the most worrying. The fact that Supernova was able to beat soulkey in game 3 of their most recent match seems to suggest widow mines are making the game TOO volatile. Not only do they snipe off 1000/1000 of units randomly, they control ground waaaaaaay too cost efficiently IMO. I mean, 75/25 seems like too little when i'm seeing 7 widow mines hold a ramp next to zerg's 4th better than 7 tanks. I think maybe their cost/ supply needs to be increased, or their splash decreased, or, less drastically, the overseer's vision range increased
On August 07 2013 05:33 Big J wrote: Korean Protoss goes to Europe to collect money. Sure this is a balance problem... Just change the WCS system already, so sad that blizzard is going to wait until next year to change it.
A game of starcraft was played. If you follow this thread you might have noticed that there were some complaints here about protoss being too safe early game TvP, able to get away with super greedy builds and gain the tech advantage way too fast for the T to hold or react.
I think this game illustrates the problem pretty well, so if anyone else follows this issue - just go watch it.
People put too much stock in "tech advantage". I mean, it matters, but different races are different. Stimmed marines are technically tier 1.5, but i don't complain when stalkers can't trade equally with them. Because the races dont work the same way.
Right now TvP is more or less balanced, or at least more balanced than it has been in a while. (there is a ~3% discrepancy across premier tournaments, which is pretty good imo)
You say toss goes for "greedy" builds when terran regularly baracks-> CC or even CC firsts... Sure toss can now be "greedier than before", but that doesn't actually mean anything.... only results give meaningful insight... and atm it seems terrans are doing just fine.
What he's referencing is what Oz did to Ryung, which is, 3rd nexus + robo tech off of one gate. If this really can't be punished, then it would clearly be a problem for terran. But I haven't seen enough evidence that it isn't beatable so far (the variation that Finale did today, with less teching and more of a gateway followup, seems clearly beatable).
On August 07 2013 05:33 Big J wrote: Korean Protoss goes to Europe to collect money. Sure this is a balance problem... Just change the WCS system already, so sad that blizzard is going to wait until next year to change it.
A game of starcraft was played. If you follow this thread you might have noticed that there were some complaints here about protoss being too safe early game TvP, able to get away with super greedy builds and gain the tech advantage way too fast for the T to hold or react.
I think this game illustrates the problem pretty well, so if anyone else follows this issue - just go watch it.
People put too much stock in "tech advantage". I mean, it matters, but different races are different. Stimmed marines are technically tier 1.5, but i don't complain when stalkers can't trade equally with them. Because the races dont work the same way.
Right now TvP is more or less balanced, or at least more balanced than it has been in a while. (there is a ~3% discrepancy across premier tournaments, which is pretty good imo)
You say toss goes for "greedy" builds when terran regularly baracks-> CC or even CC firsts... Sure toss can now be "greedier than before", but that doesn't actually mean anything.... only results give meaningful insight... and atm it seems terrans are doing just fine.
What he's referencing is what Oz did to Ryung, which is, 3rd nexus + robo tech off of one gate. If this really can't be punished, then it would clearly be a problem for terran. But I haven't seen enough evidence that it isn't beatable so far (the variation that Finale did today, with less teching and more of a gateway followup, seems clearly beatable).
Eh punishing that sort of thing isn't difficult. You just have to scout it and get out a marine squad early and cancel it (you can take it out but that's harder). Similar to how if you dont scout a random fast third by terran you can't really punish it. I do agree sneaky BS is easier for the toss in that case though.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lvsrgoR.jpg)
