EPTThey can attack while being extra safe... Well, I hope players start to find a solution soon.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 673
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
They can attack while being extra safe... Well, I hope players start to find a solution soon. | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On August 07 2013 15:48 painkilla wrote: Also Byun vs Hero. Terran loses one engagement and its gg. Protosses can lose however many fights, as long as they have enough templars, Terran can never attack into them. that has always been the case since WoL, nothing about this has changed in HotS at all. there is a similar situation when terran sniped off the obs and even if there are left over army for protoss, a lot of units are killed by cloaked ghosts | ||
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painkilla
United States695 Posts
On August 07 2013 15:57 ETisME wrote: that has always been the case since WoL, nothing about this has changed in HotS at all. there is a similar situation when terran sniped off the obs and even if there are left over army for protoss, a lot of units are killed by cloaked ghosts Hellbat is nerfed --> nothing to deal with the zealots warp in. No more two bases marauder hellbat all in. I think Blizzard failed hard with the nerf. It fixes TvT but by essentially removing the hellbats. | ||
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faderedguy
Indonesia58 Posts
Zerg a looked a bit weak in ZvT and mech needs something to be viable imo. Protoss looks strong but not imbalanced so far, will have to see tho. | ||
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purgerinho
Croatia919 Posts
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On August 07 2013 16:55 purgerinho wrote: wcs EU says it all.. 8/16 P, now we will have min 5/8 or max 7/8 in ro16.. it says everything better than any words Protoss was always strong in EU. Admittedly they're stronger now. But we need to look at Korea to be able to say anything about balance. | ||
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newbee123
Korea (South)4 Posts
After 7/12, Z vs T winning percentage is 3 out of 14 games.(WCS KR) It's around 20%. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On August 07 2013 16:55 purgerinho wrote: wcs EU says it all.. 8/16 P, now we will have min 5/8 or max 7/8 in ro16.. it says everything better than any words First, it's only a couple of games. The could be flukes. I also just looked at WCS EU (as everyone knows here, I'm a T player). It looks pretty ok. Ok, Mvp might have lost against Hasu and Grubby, but they were both 2-1 and Mvp cannot train like he used to. It happens. Also, Lucifron lost to Welmu and duckdeock, 2-1 in each game. It happens. Happy and MMA are left, and I'm guessing MMA (with his improved form) will carry the T flag into the semis, but with his terrible inconsistency, who knows... Either way, except for Welmu doing good against T this season, I don't see any terribly surprising results. And I won't say anything when one player gets a few set wins. In AM, Ryung lost to Oz and Jaedong, no surprises there. Everyone should also give PvT at least a season before we do anything. It's not looking great, but we've had bigger balance swings thanks to the meta. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
On August 07 2013 16:55 purgerinho wrote: wcs EU says it all.. 8/16 P, now we will have min 5/8 or max 7/8 in ro16.. it says everything better than any words It´s not very surprising and not necessarily a balance thing. Europe was always a bit protoss dominant, with a great lack of terran besides lucifron or kas on good days and a lot of the good EU zerg results came from stephano. Players like HasuObs, Grubby, or Naniwa are just very consistent were the other were either Stephano, patchzergs or foreign terrans, which seems to be a 4th, very weak race  .I think in TvP they should think about nerving the MSC or change it in some ways. Protoss builds are so insanely greedy this days with 1gate expand robo into upgrades with almost no units. The common Protoss build wouldn´t survived a day on the ladder in Wol because they would have died on almost every push. What i am thinking is maybe weak the cannon (or higher the energy requirement that you cannot cast 2 at the same time) that we dont have a 20 kills nexus for almost free. On the other side i personally would like to see that you can cast the cannon on a nexus that is in the building process which could help against zerg. It´s kind of boring that protoss is that map depending with the 3. base and this can help because you are not forced to cancel a nexus 3 times to 20 lings. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On August 06 2013 21:50 NarutO wrote: Its great that you call him out as misplaying the situation, when you haven't actually seen the game. The turret at the barracks didn't finish in time because guess what - oracle is fast and proxied its very quick into Terrans base (thats the real problem). He played an as good reaction as possible and still suffered damage, you need your economy lines covered and the production-turret is actually smart, as a potential second oracle or voidray can do massive amounts to you, if you don't have your production covered. You questioning me if I play the game at all, because I disagree with you? What about question if I potentially play on a higher level than you and actually get to play vs people that can control their oracle and execute builds properly? Saying an oracle is a paperfly dying to everything and has no potential or 1 mine shuts down all oracle play... really. :x Naruto, really? You provide a link where terran goes CC first, and complain about proxy stargate being too fast? Eventhough it didn't do that much of damage. Logically it should've had killed terran outright there, because terran did economic cheese. I called you biased hundred times, and got cursed for it, but there isn't any other word for this. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:05 newbee123 wrote: Game balance is seriously impaired in Z vs T After 7/12, Z vs T winning percentage is 3 out of 14 games.(WCS KR) It's around 20%. Too small sample size for a decent statistic. - only a handful of players (and they might suck in ZvT) - maps do have an influence on the games - tournament style (and preparation) have an influence on the game Thus I would advise you to try to base your opinion on a sample size of at least 500 games instead of just 20 ... with lots of different players and maps and tournament styles. Matches where a player has prepared for a specific opponent are rather terrible for "game balance statistics", because that adds a "personality factor" to the whole racial balance which is not the fault of the game and its mechanics. If one player refuses to do X and another player abuses that and wins it seriously screws the statistics ... Sadly I dont think people will listen to this, because they are too bent on hero worshipping and "my favorite player is better than your favorite player"-whining ... and "high end tournament result"-jerking-off". | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:15 saddaromma wrote: Naruto, really? You provide a link where terran goes CC first, and complain about proxy stargate being too fast? Eventhough it didn't do that much of damage. Logically it should've had killed terran outright there, because terran did economic cheese. I called you biased hundred times, and got cursed for it, but there isn't any other word for this. The point was that even with a proper response you can suffer damage and the fact that it can be various kind of stuff that hits you. INnovation prepared for a stargate because nowadays its very likely, if its a proxy robo the turrets will be of no use, that was the point. Where did I mention it is too fast? I said it can hit you / your base very quick | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:04 saddaromma wrote: Protoss was always strong in EU. Admittedly they're stronger now. But we need to look at Korea to be able to say anything about balance. So balance for everyone outside top 8 is irrelevant*? That is a much too small group to base anything of. And lets just assume protoss is too strong (not saying it is, just assuming) for at Code A and below level, but a bit weak on code S level. Then you would seriously want to boost toss, just so it is more balanced for a few people while it is less balanced for 99.999% of the players? *Yes top 8. Considering that the majority of the top32 (OSL premier league) is still zerg and that is irrelevant to the zerg players, the only thing I can conclude is that only the top 16/top 8 of the players worldwide are considered relevant for balance by some. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:20 Rabiator wrote: Too small sample size for a decent statistic. - only a handful of players (and they might suck in ZvT) - maps do have an influence on the games - tournament style (and preparation) have an influence on the game Thus I would advise you to try to base your opinion on a sample size of at least 500 games instead of just 20 ... with lots of different players and maps and tournament styles. Matches where a player has prepared for a specific opponent are rather terrible for "game balance statistics", because that adds a "personality factor" to the whole racial balance which is not the fault of the game and its mechanics. If one player refuses to do X and another player abuses that and wins it seriously screws the statistics ... Sadly I dont think people will listen to this, because they are too bent on hero worshipping and "my favorite player is better than your favorite player"-whining ... and "high end tournament result"-jerking-off". Actually as a business professional that relies on statistics even what you are saying is not sufficiently stringent to build a statistical database. It should have 500 games per player per response (3CC opening vs 1 base SG opening for example) per matchup. This will give very clear picture of balance, for example: - Is proxy double rax into 4x reaper balanced vs. double expand into spawning pool fair? Should the Terran win outright, favored or par? Should the Terran be behind if defended? Should timings be adjusted, spawning pool be faster, ling production, movement speed, etc? So yes, all this, OMG WMs are imba, X beat Y because Y got baited into the mine field, is kids complaining about a world they don't understand. There is a reason why RTS take forever to come out, balance is one of those reasons. Lately no one in their right mind is developing one for this very reason, balance can make or break a game's sales. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:35 Sissors wrote: So balance for everyone outside top 8 is irrelevant*? That is a much too small group to base anything of. And lets just assume protoss is too strong (not saying it is, just assuming) for at Code A and below level, but a bit weak on code S level. Then you would seriously want to boost toss, just so it is more balanced for a few people while it is less balanced for 99.999% of the players? *Yes top 8. Considering that the majority of the top32 (OSL premier league) is still zerg and that is irrelevant to the zerg players, the only thing I can conclude is that only the top 16/top 8 of the players worldwide are considered relevant for balance by some. ... count your horses. Currently we have 0 zergs qualified for the Seasonal Finals (2P, 3T) and 7 Zergs for WCS Korea Season 3 (8P, 9T). | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:40 Big J wrote: ... count your horses. Currently we have 0 zergs qualified for the Seasonal Finals (2P, 3T) and 7 Zergs for WCS Korea Season 3 (8P, 9T). We also do have most tournaments won by Zerg. 5x Premier for Zerg 2x Premier for Protoss 6x Premier for Terran 7x Major for Zerg 6x Major for Protoss 1x Major for Terran but as I've already mentioned you also have to look at quality and quantity of players to make judgement. One season WCS that doesn't go well for Zerg doesn't mean that its underpowered by all means. | ||
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newbee123
Korea (South)4 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:20 Rabiator wrote: Too small sample size for a decent statistic. - only a handful of players (and they might suck in ZvT) - maps do have an influence on the games - tournament style (and preparation) have an influence on the game Thus I would advise you to try to base your opinion on a sample size of at least 500 games instead of just 20 ... with lots of different players and maps and tournament styles. Matches where a player has prepared for a specific opponent are rather terrible for "game balance statistics", because that adds a "personality factor" to the whole racial balance which is not the fault of the game and its mechanics. If one player refuses to do X and another player abuses that and wins it seriously screws the statistics ... Sadly I dont think people will listen to this, because they are too bent on hero worshipping and "my favorite player is better than your favorite player"-whining ... and "high end tournament result"-jerking-off". Yeah i expected this. Too little to talk about balance. Right? I cannot help but agree with you coz it's been just about three weeks after hellbat patch. But it's still 18 wins out of 51 games since 6/3 to 7/12. It even contains life's prime time. I do not know the number if life is excluded. But I am pretty sure it is worse. I am not whinning because I am a zerg player or a fan of some HERO. And these numbers are most dependable numbers since opening of Hots because it's calculated from top class players. If you do not agree with Me, it's fine. I respect that. Maybe it could be too early to patch anything, or maybe the numbers may be overhauled in the future. But it is notable. Seriously notable. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:49 NarutO wrote: We also do have most tournaments won by Zerg. 5x Premier for Zerg 2x Premier for Protoss 6x Premier for Terran 7x Major for Zerg 6x Major for Protoss 1x Major for Terran but as I've already mentioned you also have to look at quality and quantity of players to make judgement. One season WCS that doesn't go well for Zerg doesn't mean that its underpowered by all means. And this wasn't meant as a balance complaint at all. But as he took the time to make an addendum just to tell us how Zerg was overrepresented in a Tournament with only 2players, I thought I'd tell him the numbers that are actually representing the current race distribution of the top 32 in Korea. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:20 NarutO wrote: The point was that even with a proper response you can suffer damage and the fact that it can be various kind of stuff that hits you. INnovation prepared for a stargate because nowadays its very likely, if its a proxy robo the turrets will be of no use, that was the point. Where did I mention it is too fast? I said it can hit you / your base very quick You need to find a better example then. If a player is doing an economic cheese, then by any means he should be ready to defend any kind of proxy. In that game Innovation even came out ahead. Thats the protoss who should really be complaining, not terran. gosh. Protoss spent this much against CC first: Stargate 150/150, 2*Oracle 150/150, Pylon 100/0 = 650/450. And killed 17 marine/workers (850) while expanding very late. Imagine nexus first vs 2rax reaper, should protoss be prepared for it? Or hatch first on 2-player map vs 2rax marine? | ||
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On August 07 2013 17:20 NarutO wrote: The point was that even with a proper response you can suffer damage and the fact that it can be various kind of stuff that hits you. INnovation prepared for a stargate because nowadays its very likely, if its a proxy robo the turrets will be of no use, that was the point. Where did I mention it is too fast? I said it can hit you / your base very quick Protoss is taking a huge risk in doing proxy stargate, it would be unreasonable if it didn't do any damage to a CC first build. whether the damage was too high is just subjective and this is a nice counter build to a CC first also should be taken into consideration. | ||
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