Friendly fire would one-shot marines.... If you want to touch the unit, you need to be very careful. Also 150 for the initial hit, Zergs would drown in tears because their ultras wouldn't be worth anything anymore
It's a ridiculously cost efficient unit already every single time it's not mismicroed/misused. 75 minerals and 25 gas and it's one shotting Protoss units 3 times it's price (or more). Even when it just gets 1 kill it's already been the most efficient unit in the game, as you'll be hard pressed to find units that solo kill 3 times their cost, but oftentimes it has more than 1 kill since it's invisible without detection.
Why do you quote me for what you wrote?
Because you said Zergs would drown in tears if Widow Mines did 150 damage to Ultras. Widow Mines do 160 damage vs Protoss units, and although Protoss has more long range units available to them, I just wanted to point out how ridiculous 150 or 160 damage per shot for an invisible unit that cheap and expendable is.
Widowmines are actually quiet bad vs Protoss because a composition featuring colossi dismantles them before they can deal damage/get in range. Furthermore, the high templar could potentially kill 4 ghosts (800/400). That would be I dare to say worth more than 3 times his cost. Now please don't say "but its not cloaked" . Its not, but having no detection on a minefield is even more of a mistake than missing a HT that might be somewhere in the shadows when you have to keep track of every direction or potentially warpprism with hts.
Every race has its own unique style so tweaks are fine, but your post once again is just full of whine. The mine deals 150 damage in one blow but it also cannot do anything for 40 seconds after that. A marauder I dare to say dishes out more damage over time and has the same supply.
Big J wrote: which TvP interactions and Terran mechanics cause this?
Because Terran units in small numbers beat all Protoss units in small numbers. Protoss will therefore have one army, and Terran can force the Protoss to split all the time, and when Protoss splits bad, the Terran destroys the small split, and when Protoss splits correctly, the Terran just leaves with zero losses (stim run or just the medivac boost). What else? How about the micro potential of MMM vs any gateway composition? Gateway units can't be microed in a meaningful way to somehow do much much better in the engagement, while the MMM can be microed in a variety of ways, either to destroy the opponent with stutter step concussive shell super kite, or just leave an engagement where they are outnumbered. We can go on and on about multi-tasking opportunities, comeback potential because of the difference in macro mechanics etc, and it's not a hard one to figure out that the skill ceiling for Protoss is much lower than for Terrans.
Wut? Zealots/Feedback or Zealots/Archons easily trash bio in small-medium numbers. Protoss' skill ceiling is as infinite as the other races, no one will ever play perfect in this game and it's the same for all three races. Not having to micro Zealots is actually a chance, because it means you have no room for mistake since the unit is fine on autopilot while the Terran side is forced to spend micro/attention on their fragile units with tremendous odds of not doing it optimally, thus having a weaker-than-could-be unit in the vast majority of the situations (since no one will ever have Automaton 2000 micro). The micro potential of bio units would be a problem if it was a "free bonus" allowing high level Terrans to systematically outperform high level Protosses, but as it stands now it's a demanding requirement to compete with Protoss.
Your reply is just game theory about saving APM but it's not reflected in reality. The demanding requirement to micro MMM to compete with Protoss, is in fact not demanding for top level players, and it results in one sided engagements where the Protoss player simply can't counter the situation with his own skill. He's playing automatons vs a human opponent whose skill in multi-tasking and micro dictates who wins. The Protoss player's ability isn't nearly as important, which you seem to agree on, since his units are 'fine on autopilot', and by fine you mean 'fine for diamond level players, but average or worse at premier tournaments'.
NarutO wrote: Every race has its own unique style so tweaks are fine, but your post once again is just full of whine. The mine deals 150 damage in one blow but it also cannot do anything for 40 seconds after that. A marauder I dare to say dishes out more damage over time and has the same supply.
If you can't see the difference in doing 160 damage in one shot, and doing for example 10 or 20 damage per 1.5 I can't see where you're arguing from. The unit with burst damage will win 100-0, while a unit that does sustained damage will win/lose but is either left alive with low HP, or the enemy survives with low HP, meaning the whole situation completely different. You're justifying 75 mineral 25 gas units one shotting units three/four times the cost by saying in theory a HT with full energy can feedback four Ghosts in full energy (a situation that never, ever happens, while Widow Mines actually one shot Oracles and Stalkers a million times a day).
On August 06 2013 20:37 NarutO wrote: I actually feel like decreasing the target time would be better. For both attacker and defender. It takes more skill to target and a bit less skill to detonate them. Increasing it allows Terran to micro them more efficiently and even prevent friendly fire.
I think the widowmine would be in a good place if the following took place; Reduce the time it takes for the Widowmine to fire. Reduce the splash radius to 1.2 Increase the splash damage to 65, and the initial hit to 150.
I feel like the widowmine punishes small units like Ling/Bling far too hard, while roaches can almost be A-moved into a mine-line. I think a pack of Roaches carelessly walking into mines should be punished as hard as a group of ling/bling. At least evening the odds between them a bit, while allowing the Terran to "target" or "micro" the mines would make for a much more enjoyable matchup.
I'm completely against changing widow mine. The unit is in a good spot now. If you feel zerg has problems with biomine, then making infestor a little more potent would be a better change.
Big J wrote: which TvP interactions and Terran mechanics cause this?
Because Terran units in small numbers beat all Protoss units in small numbers. Protoss will therefore have one army, and Terran can force the Protoss to split all the time, and when Protoss splits bad, the Terran destroys the small split, and when Protoss splits correctly, the Terran just leaves with zero losses (stim run or just the medivac boost). What else? How about the micro potential of MMM vs any gateway composition? Gateway units can't be microed in a meaningful way to somehow do much much better in the engagement, while the MMM can be microed in a variety of ways, either to destroy the opponent with stutter step concussive shell super kite, or just leave an engagement where they are outnumbered. We can go on and on about multi-tasking opportunities, comeback potential because of the difference in macro mechanics etc, and it's not a hard one to figure out that the skill ceiling for Protoss is much lower than for Terrans.
Wut? Zealots/Feedback or Zealots/Archons easily trash bio in small-medium numbers. Protoss' skill ceiling is as infinite as the other races, no one will ever play perfect in this game and it's the same for all three races. Not having to micro Zealots is actually a chance, because it means you have no room for mistake since the unit is fine on autopilot while the Terran side is forced to spend micro/attention on their fragile units with tremendous odds of not doing it optimally, thus having a weaker-than-could-be unit in the vast majority of the situations (since no one will ever have Automaton 2000 micro). The micro potential of bio units would be a problem if it was a "free bonus" allowing high level Terrans to systematically outperform high level Protosses, but as it stands now it's a demanding requirement to compete with Protoss.
Your reply is just game theory about saving APM but it's not reflected in reality. The demanding requirement to micro MMM to compete with Protoss, is in fact not demanding for top level players, and it results in one sided engagements where the Protoss player simply can't counter the situation with his own skill. He's playing automatons vs a human opponent whose skill in multi-tasking and micro dictates who wins. The Protoss player's ability isn't nearly as important, which you seem to agree on, since his units are 'fine on autopilot', and by fine you mean 'fine for diamond level players, but average or worse at premier tournaments'.
NarutO wrote: Every race has its own unique style so tweaks are fine, but your post once again is just full of whine. The mine deals 150 damage in one blow but it also cannot do anything for 40 seconds after that. A marauder I dare to say dishes out more damage over time and has the same supply.
If you can't see the difference in doing 160 damage in one shot, and doing for example 10 or 20 damage per 1.5 I can't see where you're arguing from. The unit with burst damage will win 100-0, while a unit that does sustained damage will win/lose but is either left alive with low HP, or the enemy survives with low HP, meaning the whole situation completely different. You're justifying 75 mineral 25 gas units one shotting units three/four times the cost by saying in theory a HT with full energy can feedback four Ghosts in full energy (a situation that never, ever happens).
I can show you games where HTs feedback more than 2 ghosts and the ghosts dying, as well as infestors. Whats your point? The situation happens quiet often to be honest. Also, a Widowmine does oneshot Stalkers, Zealots, Probes, Oracle, Dts. It doesn't oneshot warpprism, colossus, immortal, voidray.....
So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting. Even if so, do you really want to argue that PROTOSS has troubles dealing with a big amount of widowmines? Because I don't think you want to go down that road. Btw the oracle could spot the widowmine (or you can) early on, because it casts a shadow on the map. Obviously if its burrowed well in the economy its hard to spot, but you could do it ;-)
On August 06 2013 20:12 Decendos wrote: yep, zerg is doing totally fine. lol. even with 2 2 vs 1 1 soulkey hasnt had a chance vs MMMM, after that we saw the ever so awesome slow death of zerg.
also while zvp is fine balancewise its horrible designwise. protoss has no real answer to mass muta techswitches if z gets ahead while zerg has no answer to HTs and mass voids other than doing the super boring SH turtle mass static + viper style.
That's a cool reply that sums up Zerg players perfectly. Protoss have no answer at all to Muta switches, but Zergs have no answer to mass HT/Void (that requires 8 gas) EXCEPT units that you don't like. It's comical. Zerg has an answer to everything, very much unlike Protoss that as a race is unable of doing comebacks and dealing with switches into mass muta or switches from mass muta to mass ultra. I've been frustrated more than enough on the ladder (rank 12 master) with dealing with muta balls on Akilon and suffer some economic damage and then have a million Stalkers and HTs in my army to fight 20 ultras with.
Either way that's neither here nor there. The crux of your reply is correct. Blizzard doesn't care if the game design is bad and the matchups are bland, coin-flippy or outright uninteresting, as long as it's random enough that the win percentages across all ladders (not necessarily code-s level) are near 50%.
mass muta techswitches at least need 8 gases, most times 10-12. its not like zerg suddenly has 4-5k gas. and its not unbeatable either. we almost never see this by pros since apparently they can deal with it pretty good. stalker archon behind building actually laugh at ultras which gives you enough time to get out some immos. its definetly dealable even if you personally have problems. so my "no answers" was a bit over the top but its very hard to deal with.
as seen today protoss is very able to beat mass SH turtle with a lot of static with colossus archon voidray HT tempest vs probably the best turtle zerg in the world on the best turtle map there is. but its just fucking boring and symbol wouldve lost a lot harder if he wouldve gone for any non-mass SH based comp. DK already mentioned they look into it and i am interested in how they are gonna nerf SH turtle without breaking Z lategame which then really needs a buff, be it to ultras, vipers or tempest not superhardcountering BLs anymore.
and for the soulkey game today: the most "fun" (stupid) part was then he lost his 4th base with 2 2 vs 1 1 (although i think at the time mutas moved he was also 2 2) while moving his mutas away for probably the first time in the whole game to kill reinforcements. supernova just killed the 4th and was way ahead. his mutas couldnt ever be aggressively used until the very late gamestages where he had like 30-40 and just went for basesnipes vs losing his own bases. macro ZvT is in a horrible state since 5 months now and as seen in july and now august with the best zerg in the world struggling its not getting better.
btw in before "it was just one game"....it has been many "just one games" now. macrogame TvZ is broken as well as macrogame TvP since both T in TvZ and P in TvP can play too greedy.
NarutO wrote: So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting.
Come on. If you don't play the game, the Liquipedia exists out there as well for you to use. The Oracle costs 150 minerals 150 gas, which makes it 3 or 4 times more expensive than the Widow Mine. 3 as a total value, but closer to 4 considering how valuable gas is to Protoss players.
So your complaint about Protoss units getting destroyed by a widow mine..... I mean so the fact that you can't make 1 unit that kills 4 and lives is not a big deal? I mean obviously there is ways to mitigate this with turrets but regardless you are atleast losing 3-4 workers instantly or if you only have 4 marines you lost them to an oracle then the next one puts you even further behind then the 3rd kills you with stalker and sentry follow up lol We need that widow mine to help defend against this....
There is a lot of high level players including ppl like demuslim select that get CRUSHED with this oracle LOL So if you want to change widow mine than you have to Nerf the heck out of the oracle.....
NarutO wrote: So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting.
Come on. If you don't play the Liquipedia exists out there as well. The Oracle costs 150 minerals 150 gas, which makes it 3 or 4 times more expensive than the Widow Mine. 3 as a total value, but closer to 4 considering how valuable gas is to Protoss players.
It costs 75/125 more and as I mentioned you can potentailly see the shadow of the mine. Do we need to talk about what the oracle can take out? If there's less than 6 marines, 5 marines are gone instantly (250 minerals) or it can be potential gamewinning in the economy line if you are not prepared.
Races are different and have different units. A storm can be devastating as well for not too much of an investment. As I said, do you really want to go down the road of "Protoss" has troubles against Terran mines? Really?
On August 06 2013 20:30 Rhaegal wrote: I've converted to the dark side. It just seemed that there was so little Soulkey could do.
Fortunately, I narrowed it down to one problem, and that's the widow mine. Simply scattering a few mines made it so Supernova's army couldn't be overrun, and they are guranteed to kill at least some units. If you have a bunch of them, it's simply not feasible to detonate them with lings.
Granted, Soulkey didn't have the best micro, and it was actually piss poor at times, but I still couldn't overcome a feeling of helplessness when watching from his perspective.
I think the best change would actually be something small. Highlighting the unit that is targeted, or increasing the casting time of the mine shot by .25-.5 I feel would make a big difference, and we'd see less game changing widow mine shots like we saw outside of Soulkey's 4th.
I actually feel like decreasing the target time would be better. For both attacker and defender. It takes more skill to target and a bit less skill to detonate them. Increasing it allows Terran to micro them more efficiently and even prevent friendly fire.
What percentage - roughly - of mine shots gets microed by Terrans at the highest level of play? Anybody dare a guess? Even watching lots of Korean pro games lately, this is almost impossible to guess for me.
NarutO wrote: So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting.
Come on. If you don't play the Liquipedia exists out there as well. The Oracle costs 150 minerals 150 gas, which makes it 3 or 4 times more expensive than the Widow Mine. 3 as a total value, but closer to 4 considering how valuable gas is to Protoss players.
It costs 75/125 more and as I mentioned you can potentailly see the shadow of the mine. Do we need to talk about what the oracle can take out? If there's less than 6 marines, 5 marines are gone instantly (250 minerals) or it can be potential gamewinning in the economy line if you are not prepared.
Races are different and have different units. A storm can be devastating as well for not too much of an investment. As I said, do you really want to go down the road of "Protoss" has troubles against Terran mines? Really?
Yes, you're free to talk about what the Oracle can take out. If it takes out 5 Marines it has still killed much less than what it has cost. It's operating under 100% efficiency. While the Widow Mine that kills an Oracle operated at 400% efficiency.
On August 06 2013 20:30 Rhaegal wrote: I've converted to the dark side. It just seemed that there was so little Soulkey could do.
Fortunately, I narrowed it down to one problem, and that's the widow mine. Simply scattering a few mines made it so Supernova's army couldn't be overrun, and they are guranteed to kill at least some units. If you have a bunch of them, it's simply not feasible to detonate them with lings.
Granted, Soulkey didn't have the best micro, and it was actually piss poor at times, but I still couldn't overcome a feeling of helplessness when watching from his perspective.
I think the best change would actually be something small. Highlighting the unit that is targeted, or increasing the casting time of the mine shot by .25-.5 I feel would make a big difference, and we'd see less game changing widow mine shots like we saw outside of Soulkey's 4th.
I actually feel like decreasing the target time would be better. For both attacker and defender. It takes more skill to target and a bit less skill to detonate them. Increasing it allows Terran to micro them more efficiently and even prevent friendly fire.
What percentage - roughly - of mine shots gets microed by Terrans at the highest level of play? Anybody dare a guess? Even watching lots of Korean pro games lately, this is almost impossible to guess for me.
When I watch the connections if INnoVation sometimes I have the feeling that its 100% -_- but I wouldn't dare to guess. I also guess even if you target, its not a 100% easy target or works 100% of the time.
On August 06 2013 20:37 NarutO wrote: I actually feel like decreasing the target time would be better. For both attacker and defender. It takes more skill to target and a bit less skill to detonate them. Increasing it allows Terran to micro them more efficiently and even prevent friendly fire.
I think the widowmine would be in a good place if the following took place; Reduce the time it takes for the Widowmine to fire. Reduce the splash radius to 1.2 Increase the splash damage to 65, and the initial hit to 150.
I feel like the widowmine punishes small units like Ling/Bling far too hard, while roaches can almost be A-moved into a mine-line. I think a pack of Roaches carelessly walking into mines should be punished as hard as a group of ling/bling. At least evening the odds between them a bit, while allowing the Terran to "target" or "micro" the mines would make for a much more enjoyable matchup.
I'm completely against changing widow mine. The unit is in a good spot now. If you feel zerg has problems with biomine, then making infestor a little more potent would be a better change.
I agree that they should not touch the mine. It is a in a really good spot right now. Not sure about the Infestor change you propose, because I generally agree with you, infestors are really costinefficient in the midgame right now against basically anything but banelings. But it is still is very potent once it acquires a lot of energy, so I think it should not get changed at this point as it carries a lot of potential if the metagame just slows down a tiny bit.
NarutO wrote: So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting.
Come on. If you don't play the Liquipedia exists out there as well. The Oracle costs 150 minerals 150 gas, which makes it 3 or 4 times more expensive than the Widow Mine. 3 as a total value, but closer to 4 considering how valuable gas is to Protoss players.
It costs 75/125 more and as I mentioned you can potentailly see the shadow of the mine. Do we need to talk about what the oracle can take out? If there's less than 6 marines, 5 marines are gone instantly (250 minerals) or it can be potential gamewinning in the economy line if you are not prepared.
Races are different and have different units. A storm can be devastating as well for not too much of an investment. As I said, do you really want to go down the road of "Protoss" has troubles against Terran mines? Really?
Yes, you're free to talk about what the Oracle can take out. If it takes out 5 Marines it has still killed much less than what it has cost. It's operating under 100% efficiency. While the Widow Mine that kills an Oracle operated at 400% efficiency.
The oracle can straight out win games if you are not prepared or even if you spotted it and react slightly wrong. A widowmine doesn't have the potential. Even a widowmine drop against no detection and a good Protoss (could , yes could win) but basically will kill 2 workers and deny mining while not attacking. You are comparing completely different things.
The sentry can block 50 times its supply from attacking with forcefield on ramps. A recall can save you when you are complete out of position. What is your point? Protoss has _NO TROUBLE_ with widow mines usually.
NarutO wrote: So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting.
Come on. If you don't play the Liquipedia exists out there as well. The Oracle costs 150 minerals 150 gas, which makes it 3 or 4 times more expensive than the Widow Mine. 3 as a total value, but closer to 4 considering how valuable gas is to Protoss players.
It costs 75/125 more and as I mentioned you can potentailly see the shadow of the mine. Do we need to talk about what the oracle can take out? If there's less than 6 marines, 5 marines are gone instantly (250 minerals) or it can be potential gamewinning in the economy line if you are not prepared.
Races are different and have different units. A storm can be devastating as well for not too much of an investment. As I said, do you really want to go down the road of "Protoss" has troubles against Terran mines? Really?
Yes, you're free to talk about what the Oracle can take out. If it takes out 5 Marines it has still killed much less than what it has cost. It's operating under 100% efficiency. While the Widow Mine that kills an Oracle operated at 400% efficiency.
The oracle can straight out win games if you are not prepared or even if you spotted it and react slightly wrong. A widowmine doesn't have the potential. Even a widowmine drop against no detection and a good Protoss (could , yes could win) but basically will kill 2 workers and deny mining while not attacking. You are comparing completely different things.
The sentry can block 50 times its supply from attacking with forcefield on ramps. A recall can save you when you are complete out of position. What is your point? Protoss has _NO TROUBLE_ with widow mines usually.
What do you mean the Widow Mine doesn't have the potential? You'd have to be a terrible player to outright lose to 1 or 2 proxy Widow Mines, but the same can be said about proxy Oracles. If you refuse to scout, refuse to count pylons, refuse to make a bunker, or refuse to make a turret, and refuse to move your SCVs, the reason you lost wasn't the Oracle.
As far as your ramble about force fields, feedbacks and recalls goes, you've completely lost everyone in the thread. You said Zergs wouldn't be able to handle a Widow Mine doing 150 damage to prime target even when the splash would be drastically reduced, but then you start aggressively arguing here how 160 damage to expensive Protoss units is completely acceptable without any shadow of a doubt. Okay then, but if you actually play the game, it won't be hard to guess which race it is.
NarutO wrote: So there really is no unit "3 times its cost" that its one-shotting.
Come on. If you don't play the Liquipedia exists out there as well. The Oracle costs 150 minerals 150 gas, which makes it 3 or 4 times more expensive than the Widow Mine. 3 as a total value, but closer to 4 considering how valuable gas is to Protoss players.
It costs 75/125 more and as I mentioned you can potentailly see the shadow of the mine. Do we need to talk about what the oracle can take out? If there's less than 6 marines, 5 marines are gone instantly (250 minerals) or it can be potential gamewinning in the economy line if you are not prepared.
Races are different and have different units. A storm can be devastating as well for not too much of an investment. As I said, do you really want to go down the road of "Protoss" has troubles against Terran mines? Really?
Yes, you're free to talk about what the Oracle can take out. If it takes out 5 Marines it has still killed much less than what it has cost. It's operating under 100% efficiency. While the Widow Mine that kills an Oracle operated at 400% efficiency.
The oracle can straight out win games if you are not prepared or even if you spotted it and react slightly wrong. A widowmine doesn't have the potential. Even a widowmine drop against no detection and a good Protoss (could , yes could win) but basically will kill 2 workers and deny mining while not attacking. You are comparing completely different things.
The sentry can block 50 times its supply from attacking with forcefield on ramps. A recall can save you when you are complete out of position. What is your point? Protoss has _NO TROUBLE_ with widow mines usually.
What do you mean the Widow Mine doesn't have the potential? You'd have to be a terrible player to outright lose to 1 or 2 proxy Widow Mines, but the same can be said about proxy Oracles. If you refuse to scout, refuse to count pylons, refuse to make a bunker, or refuse to make a turret, and refuse to move your SCVs, the reason you lost wasn't the Oracle.
As far as your ramble about force fields, feedbacks and recalls goes, you've completely lost everyone in the thread. You said Zergs wouldn't be able to handle a Widow Mine doing 150 damage to prime target even when the splash would be drastically reduced, but then you start aggressively arguing here how 160 damage to expensive Protoss units is completely acceptable without any shadow of a doubt. Okay then, but if you actually play the game, it won't be hard to guess which race it is.
I made an exaggeration that fits what you did. Zerg lategame evolves around ultralisks and the splash damage would have gotten a buff as he mentioned from 40 to 65. Ultralisks already have trouble with 125 damage direct hits, so if you increase the damage it would be even the bigger outcry.
Protoss isn't as bothered, because in bigger compositions the mines are NO PROBLEM to Protoss. There are tons of pro players that lose to the oracle and not with every build you can scout/count pylons beforehand OR guess that its an oracle. There are various builds that evolve around 2 gas but I guess you are no PRotoss? Otherwise you should know. CJ_HerO vs INnoVation, take it as an example on derelict. He scouted the map because he knew something was up, got an ebay and 3 turrets, he still lost all his marines and needed to pull scvs vs a stalker. CJ_HerO followed it up with a nexus, but if he simply did 3 gate behind, he would have won. INnovation must be terrible right?
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
You call me out as a terrible player, thats my response. Usually a grudgematch has something to it. (Ban, change of signature etc) You can also reply to the arguments in my last post "paper thin"
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
How does he completely misplays the situation? What would the proper reaction vs a potential stargate be? (It could have been blink, stargate, proxy dt, proxy robo...) He got an ebay and turrets for both economy lines as well as his production. Please elaborate how he could have potentially reacted better?
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
You call me out as a terrible player, thats my response. Usually a grudgematch has something to it. (Ban, change of signature etc) You can also reply to the arguments in my last post "paper thin"
More strawmen I see. Please point out with a quote where I called you a terrible player. I questioned whether you actually play the game since you tried to claim the WM doesn't one shot anything 3 times more expensive. It seems like this stung a little as you've decided to make it your mission to derail the thread since you were proven to be just rambling.
NarutO wrote: How does he completely misplays the situation? What would the proper reaction vs a potential stargate be? (It could have been blink, stargate, proxy dt, proxy robo...) He got an ebay and turrets for both economy lines as well as his production. Please elaborate how he could have potentially reacted better?
Provide the replay or the VOD. All we have currently is your word on what happened, and your word is that he made 3 turrets vs an Oracle which is completely excessive, and he lost 5 Marines despite being completely safe under just 1 turret's radius. And the response to all those 'potentials' is the same. You scout untill you find out what it is, and before that you make those turrets in the mineral line (1 each). You're grasping at straws now...
Maybe you shouldn't call people out that not just understand the game but also nearly follow every game on the prolevel in Korea. If you want, you can take me on in a grudgematch, I'd love it.
What the heck is a grudgematch? I can play a best of 5 vs you on ladder maps on EU server if you want, although I've no idea what it has to do with the 'Designated Balance Discussion Thread' except you trying to bully people who expose your arguments for being paper thin. Even your example about Innovation is laughable. You describe a situation where he completely misplays the situation and makes mistakes and then you try to build some kind of a straw man out of it. Hilarious, tbh.
You call me out as a terrible player, thats my response. Usually a grudgematch has something to it. (Ban, change of signature etc) You can also reply to the arguments in my last post "paper thin"
More strawmen I see. Please point out with a quote where I called you a terrible player. I questioned whether you actually play the game since you tried to claim the WM doesn't one shot anything 3 times more expensive. It seems like this stung a little as you've decided to make it your mission to derail the thread since you were proven to be just rambling.
NarutO wrote: How does he completely misplays the situation? What would the proper reaction vs a potential stargate be? (It could have been blink, stargate, proxy dt, proxy robo...) He got an ebay and turrets for both economy lines as well as his production. Please elaborate how he could have potentially reacted better?
Provide the replay or the VOD. All we have currently is your word on what happened, and your word is that he made 3 turrets vs an Oracle which is completely excessive, and he lost 5 Marines despite being completely safe under just 1 turret's radius.
Its great that you call him out as misplaying the situation, when you haven't actually seen the game. The turret at the barracks didn't finish in time because guess what - oracle is fast and proxied its very quick into Terrans base (thats the real problem). He played an as good reaction as possible and still suffered damage, you need your economy lines covered and the production-turret is actually smart, as a potential second oracle or voidray can do massive amounts to you, if you don't have your production covered.
You questioning me if I play the game at all, because I disagree with you? What about question if I potentially play on a higher level than you and actually get to play vs people that can control their oracle and execute builds properly? Saying an oracle is a paperfly dying to everything and has no potential or 1 mine shuts down all oracle play... really. :x
EPT
