EPTalso while zvp is fine balancewise its horrible designwise. protoss has no real answer to mass muta techswitches if z gets ahead while zerg has no answer to HTs and mass voids other than doing the super boring SH turtle mass static + viper style.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 668
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
also while zvp is fine balancewise its horrible designwise. protoss has no real answer to mass muta techswitches if z gets ahead while zerg has no answer to HTs and mass voids other than doing the super boring SH turtle mass static + viper style. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On August 06 2013 19:39 Big J wrote: Point one, your observation is simply wrong: I don't think we have a strong Terran representation at the top. In all the big Korean Leagues/Tournaments - WCS, GSTL, Proleague - Terran has not been very strongly represented in the last months (or even years). It fluctuates up and down just like it should statistically. At lower levels, Terrans are the least representated race by a tiny margin from silver to masters, which does not conclude to "Terran does worse with less skill" but which is most likely just a statistical thing of less people playing Terran. So no, we don't have a lot of terrans at the very, ver top and the very bottom the rankings and in between they are underrepresented. (If we had, we would have to consider Terran overpowered, as at the toplevel they would be too strong) Point two, what you are saying can be represented by that diagramm: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Sa0hU5t.png) So if the situation is currently balanced, it will become terribly imbalanced when everybody gets better. Which I doubt. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KN6hrWX.jpg) its highly innacurate but gives general idea. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:12 saddaromma wrote: its highly innacurate but gives general idea. I'd argue that zerg is a hell of a lot less linear then the other two | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:12 Decendos wrote: yep, zerg is doing totally fine. lol. even with 2 2 vs 1 1 soulkey hasnt had a chance vs MMMM, after that we saw the ever so awesome slow death of zerg. also while zvp is fine balancewise its horrible designwise. protoss has no real answer to mass muta techswitches if z gets ahead while zerg has no answer to HTs and mass voids other than doing the super boring SH turtle mass static + viper style. That's a cool reply that sums up Zerg players perfectly. Protoss have no answer at all to Muta switches, but Zergs have no answer to mass HT/Void (that requires 8 gas) EXCEPT units that you don't like. It's comical. Zerg has an answer to everything, very much unlike Protoss that as a race is unable of doing comebacks and dealing with switches into mass muta or switches from mass muta to mass ultra. I've been frustrated more than enough on the ladder (rank 12 master) with dealing with muta balls on Akilon and suffer some economic damage and then have a million Stalkers and HTs in my army to fight 20 ultras with. Either way that's neither here nor there. The crux of your reply is correct. Blizzard doesn't care if the game design is bad and the matchups are bland, coin-flippy or outright uninteresting, as long as it's random enough that the win percentages across all ladders (not necessarily code-s level) are near 50%. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
Fortunately, I narrowed it down to one problem, and that's the widow mine. Simply scattering a few mines made it so Supernova's army couldn't be overrun, and they are guranteed to kill at least some units. If you have a bunch of them, it's simply not feasible to detonate them with lings. Granted, Soulkey didn't have the best micro, and it was actually piss poor at times, but I still couldn't overcome a feeling of helplessness when watching from his perspective. I think the best change would actually be something small. Highlighting the unit that is targeted, or increasing the casting time of the mine shot by .25-.5 I feel would make a big difference, and we'd see less game changing widow mine shots like we saw outside of Soulkey's 4th. Thinking about it more, I think adding the ability to manually target with widow mines, while allowing the zerg to see what is targeted (like hunter seeker), with a slight nerf to the cast time or aoe radius of the widow mine, would be better for all parties involved. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:07 Jinxeth wrote: I've written this on the official EU forums, and this is my take on ZvT. I've put it in a spoiler since there's a lot of stuff in there. + Show Spoiler + I've been watching a lot of streams, tournament games, casts and what not. I've experienced this on my own accord, and can only shrug it off as being the thing that really breaks this matchup on all levels of play. Its not that certain units are overpowered, per se. Its not that certain compositions just dwarfs others into oblivion, making the game entirely unplayable.. Its the speed dynamic of the units. When stating this, what is it that I'm actually referring to?... 1: When Zerg engages on creep, banelings can get to blow up on widowmines before the widowmines can shoot. They are significantly faster than stimmed bio. Ultralisks are faster than stimmed bio, which means they have to kite more and shoot less. Infestors have a way easier time getting to the front and falling back without getting picked off in the process. Speedlings are insanely fast to wrap around the bio, making efficient trades possible if the medivacs are caught before lifting the Terran army away. 2: When Zerg engages off creep, widowmines get to detonate early. Banelings are slower than stimmed bio. Lings are the only units that can get a surround on the Terran bio-ball, but most of these will be picked off as the rest of the Zerg army is attempting to catch up. (Really, against high numbers Zerglings just melt.) allowing the Terran to split and kite versus Infestor/Bling/Ultra all freaking day. If Terran even remotely secures his flanks, getting a surround on a bio-ball becomes impossible. Zerg is then relying solely on landing a fungal to actually kill the Terran army. The cheaper, faster to produce and lower tech army gets to dominate the Zerg player so hard that winning lategame scenarios become seemingly impossible. To me, this concept is utterly disgusting, especially on the larger maps like Whirlwind. Getting good creep-spread going is not only super tough against a competent Terran, but also instrumental in winning macro games versus Terran. To then have the Terran finish rounding off his endgame deathball at thirteen minutes just blows my mind. Assuming the High-end winrates for Zerg are as bad as has been suggested, maybe it'd be time to take a look at lowering Zerg units speed on creep, while increasing their speed off creep. At least, I find it horrendously stupid that my most important units can only fight on creep. ~ My 2c. EDIT: Obviously what I am suggesting, is that Terran should have an easier time when fighting on creep, and a harder time when fighting off creep. My whole gripe is that creep decides so incredibly much in the ZvT engagements that the same armies engaging either on or off creep will result in either side potentially getting stomped. I'm not advocating that creep shouldn't be important, but right now its kind of dictating the matchup to a disgusting degree. Thats a nice observation. But increasing speed of all zerg units off creep is a huge change. I doubt its doable. Better try other ways. Maybe when a creep tumor is killed, the prior tumor (mother tumor) should get 'Spawn Creep Tumor' ability again? EDIT: and maybe decrease speed bonus on creep. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:12 saddaromma wrote: its highly innacurate but gives general idea. so three questions to you (assuming your chart is right): - how should this be adressed, because in the near future Bomber, Supernova, Maru, Keen, Flash, Bbyong will have caught up to where Innovation is now and then those Terrans will never lose again unless a Z/P far exceeds them. So the game is going to be imbalanced. - how come that we "just currently" hit this situation of balance at the toplevel. That would imply that e.g. previously TvP was extremly Protoss favored as the general skill level was lower... while half a year ago we had back to back seasons with 60:40 winrate for Terran in TvP. So how does that work? - what TvZ and TvP interactions and Terran mechanics cause this? | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:30 Rhaegal wrote: I've converted to the dark side. It just seemed that there was so little Soulkey could do. Fortunately, I narrowed it down to one problem, and that's the widow mine. Simply scattering a few mines made it so Supernova's army couldn't be overrun, and they are guranteed to kill at least some units. If you have a bunch of them, it's simply not feasible to detonate them with lings. Granted, Soulkey didn't have the best micro, and it was actually piss poor at times, but I still couldn't overcome a feeling of helplessness when watching from his perspective. I think the best change would actually be something small. Highlighting the unit that is targeted, or increasing the casting time of the mine shot by .25-.5 I feel would make a big difference, and we'd see less game changing widow mine shots like we saw outside of Soulkey's 4th. I actually feel like decreasing the target time would be better. For both attacker and defender. It takes more skill to target and a bit less skill to detonate them. Increasing it allows Terran to micro them more efficiently and even prevent friendly fire. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:30 Rhaegal wrote: I've converted to the dark side. It just seemed that there was so little Soulkey could do. Fortunately, I narrowed it down to one problem, and that's the widow mine. Simply scattering a few mines made it so Supernova's army couldn't be overrun, and they are guranteed to kill at least some units. If you have a bunch of them, it's simply not feasible to detonate them with lings. Granted, Soulkey didn't have the best micro, and it was actually piss poor at times, but I still couldn't overcome a feeling of helplessness when watching from his perspective. I think the best change would actually be something small. Highlighting the unit that is targeted, or increasing the casting time of the mine shot by .25-.5 I feel would make a big difference, and we'd see less game changing widow mine shots like we saw outside of Soulkey's 4th. I totally agree with these small change, it's the best way to deal with this, by giving more room to the zerg to micro against the mines. I know I'd still get owned by it, but seeing top zerg splitting targeted units against mine splash would be awesome. And anyway, it would be nice to see the best terrans switching targets (which will be more doable if you increase the casting time so it's better for everyone). NarutO : True, but it also gives you more time to snipe the mine before they detonate, both solution has pros and cons. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
Big J wrote: which TvP interactions and Terran mechanics cause this? Because Terran units in small numbers beat all Protoss units in small numbers. Protoss will therefore have one army, and Terran can force the Protoss to split all the time, and when Protoss splits bad, the Terran destroys the small split, and when Protoss splits correctly, the Terran just leaves with zero losses (stim run or just the medivac boost). What else? How about the micro potential of MMM vs any gateway composition? Gateway units can't be microed in a meaningful way to somehow do much much better in the engagement, while the MMM can be microed in a variety of ways, either to destroy the opponent with stutter step concussive shell super kite, or just leave an engagement where they are outnumbered. We can go on and on about multi-tasking opportunities, comeback potential because of the difference in macro mechanics etc, and it's not a hard one to figure out that the skill ceiling for Protoss is much lower than for Terrans. | ||
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Rhaegal
United States678 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:37 NarutO wrote: I actually feel like decreasing the target time would be better. For both attacker and defender. It takes more skill to target and a bit less skill to detonate them. Increasing it allows Terran to micro them more efficiently and even prevent friendly fire. I see what you're saying, but it would also increase the random factor. Even the best of Terrans complain about how they can lose their entire army to storms if they look away for a split second, imagine how Zerg would feel if widow mines casted even faster. | ||
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Jinxeth
Denmark33 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:37 NarutO wrote: I actually feel like decreasing the target time would be better. For both attacker and defender. It takes more skill to target and a bit less skill to detonate them. Increasing it allows Terran to micro them more efficiently and even prevent friendly fire. I think the widowmine would be in a good place if the following took place; Reduce the time it takes for the Widowmine to fire. Reduce the splash radius to 1.2 Increase the splash damage to 65, and the initial hit to 150. I feel like the widowmine punishes small units like Ling/Bling far too hard, while roaches can almost be A-moved into a mine-line. I think a pack of Roaches carelessly walking into mines should be punished as hard as a group of ling/bling. At least evening the odds between them a bit, while allowing the Terran to "target" or "micro" the mines would make for a much more enjoyable matchup. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:43 Jinxeth wrote: I think the widowmine would be in a good place if the following took place; Reduce the time it takes for the Widowmine to fire. Reduce the splash radius to 1.2 Increase the splash damage to 65, and the initial hit to 150. I feel like the widowmine punishes small units like Ling/Bling far too hard, while roaches can almost be A-moved into a mine-line. I think a pack of Roaches carelessly walking into mines should be punished as hard as a group of ling/bling. At least evening the odds between them a bit, while allowing the Terran to "target" or "micro" the mines would make for a much more enjoyable matchup. Friendly fire would one-shot marines.... If you want to touch the unit, you need to be very careful. Also 150 for the initial hit, Zergs would drown in tears because their ultras wouldn't be worth anything anymore. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:36 Big J wrote: so three questions to you: - how should this be adressed, because in the near future Bomber, Supernova, Maru, Keen, Flash, Bbyong will have caught up to where Innovation is now and then Terran will never lose again unless a Z/P far exceeds those players. So the game is going to be imbalanced. - how come that we "just currently" hit this situation of balance at the toplevel. That would imply that previously TvP was extremly Protoss favored as the general skill level was lower... while half a year ago we had back to back seasons with 60:40 winrate for Terran in TvP. So how does that work? - what TvZ and TvP interactions and Terran mechanics cause this? Just to remind you, its all hypothetical. Like the diagram itself. Answers: 1. Maybe rest of terrans will never make it there due not having inner talent. Same could be said about nada, why he is not the best? he never stopped training until he left the scene. 2. we hit this situation of balance at the toplevel because David Kim balances it around this level, he doesn't care about lower leagues and possible imbalances at innovation/soulkey level. 3. I explained it in my previous posts 1-2 pages ago. Feel free to check. You can take everything I said with grain of salt, since let me be honest, I don't know if the game is balanced or not. But there are certain issues I don't like about the game - mostly design related. | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
Friendly fire would one-shot marines.... If you want to touch the unit, you need to be very careful. Also 150 for the initial hit, Zergs would drown in tears because their ultras wouldn't be worth anything anymore It's a ridiculously cost efficient unit already every single time it's not mismicroed/misused. 75 minerals and 25 gas and it's one shotting Protoss units 3 times it's price (or more). Even when it just gets 1 kill it's already been the most efficient unit in the game, as you'll be hard pressed to find units that solo kill 3 times their cost, but oftentimes it has more than 1 kill since it's invisible without detection. I'll literally laugh my ass off if they would do what the poster above suggested and buff the initial hit damage against Zerg too. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:51 xyzz wrote: It's a ridiculously cost efficient unit already every single time it's not mismicroed/misused. 75 minerals and 25 gas and it's one shotting Protoss units 3 times it's price (or more). Even when it just gets 1 kill it's already been the most efficient unit in the game, as you'll be hard pressed to find units that solo kill 3 times their cost, but oftentimes it has more than 1 kill since it's invisible without detection. Why do you quote me for what you wrote? | ||
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xyzz
567 Posts
Because you said Zergs would drown in tears if Widow Mines did 150 damage to Ultras. Widow Mines do 160 damage vs Protoss units, and although Protoss has more long range units available to them, I just wanted to point out how ridiculous 150 or 160 damage per shot for an invisible unit that cheap and expendable is. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:40 xyzz wrote: Because Terran units in small numbers beat all Protoss units in small numbers. Protoss will therefore have one army, and Terran can force the Protoss to split all the time, and when Protoss splits bad, the Terran destroys the small split, and when Protoss splits correctly, the Terran just leaves with zero losses (stim run or just the medivac boost). What else? How about the micro potential of MMM vs any gateway composition? Gateway units can't be microed in a meaningful way to somehow do much much better in the engagement, while the MMM can be microed in a variety of ways, either to destroy the opponent with stutter step concussive shell super kite, or just leave an engagement where they are outnumbered. We can go on and on about multi-tasking opportunities, comeback potential because of the difference in macro mechanics etc, and it's not a hard one to figure out that the skill ceiling for Protoss is much lower than for Terrans. Wut? Zealots/Feedback or Zealots/Archons easily trash bio in small-medium numbers. Protoss' skill ceiling is as infinite as the other races, no one will ever play perfect in this game and it's the same for all three races. Not having to micro Zealots is actually a chance, because it means you have no room for mistake since the unit is fine on autopilot while the Terran side is forced to spend micro/attention on their fragile units with tremendous odds of not doing it optimally, thus having a weaker-than-could-be unit in the vast majority of the situations (since no one will ever have Automaton 2000 micro). The micro potential of bio units would be a problem if it was a "free bonus" allowing high level Terrans to systematically outperform high level Protosses, but as it stands now it's a demanding requirement to compete with Protoss. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12382 Posts
On the one side, it felt like Ryung's build was pretty halfway, and not really decisive. I'm pretty sure he didn't do the best job of terraning this game, which is probably why nobody reacted that badly to it (also no one watches WCS NA, but still). On the other side, Oz was completely confident in his PvT at the start of the game. He didn't think there was the slightest chance of him losing, which means he didn't think his build was a gamble at all. If he's right, then that's certainly a problem. But is he? TvZ: I fell asleep, couldn't see that Soulkey vs Suno game. Still, the tweaks that are proposed in reaction of it are most of the time WAY too big. The match-up isn't grossly imbalanced. If a change is needed, it needs to be a small change, not a very large one. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:49 saddaromma wrote: Just to remind you, its all hypothetical. Like the diagram itself. Answers: 1. Maybe rest of terrans will never make it there due not having inner talent. Same could be said about nada, why he is not the best? he never stopped training until he left the scene. 2. we hit this situation of balance at the toplevel because David Kim balances it around this level, he doesn't care about lower leagues and possible imbalances at innovation/soulkey level. 3. I explained it in my previous posts 1-2 pages ago. Feel free to check. You can take everything I said with grain of salt, since let me be honest, I don't know if the game is balanced or not. But there are certain issues I don't like about the game - mostly design related. 1. is highly unlikely. The scene is and has always been improving (the BW scene improved for 10years; WoL improved for 3years; we are not hitting a ceiling after 5months of HotS for sure). Even if it may not be those names, there will be other Terrans that rise above Innovations current level in the next months. And unless the equal rise in skill of Z/P opponents means an equal rise in strength the game will be imbalanced then. 2. This may be true that DK balances around this level. But there haven't been gamebreaking balance changes in months, yet the situation has been stable despite a HUGE increase in skill from the start of HotS to now. | ||
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