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On May 05 2013 20:36 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 13:07 Wombat_NI wrote:
Demi I'm quite articulate, and patient as hell at reading long posts, but your recent posts are horrible jargon-fuelled intellectual wankery. It doesnt enable good discussions to form from the interesting ideas you have laid out because it is painful to read.
@Rabiator, I agree with much of what you say but I don't really get your motivation. SC2 has been out for a good while now, if such wholesale changes were to even be countenanced by Blizzard I would eat my own shoes. Do you dislike SC2 as it is now, or simply think it can be a lot better than its current design allows for? It says something about Demi's posts that someone is more willing to read Rabiator's posts.. No offence to either, but I've started to skip the posts of both recently. Which isn't to say that the discussion should not happen, but I might not be the only one who comes to this thread looking for different content.
Don't worry. I'm with you.
Make your post concise, don't write a thesis-long rebuttal, and do discuss balance. Then, more people will actually read what is written, which might include interesting points.
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How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve.
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DemigodcelpH
I have assiduously studied all your posts and come to following logically ineluctable conclusions.
For a post (or any form of inter-being communication) to be useful, it must be cognizable to others. This is not a "fly-by-night" negotiable whim. It is a HIGHER ORDER RULE of expressing one's intangible thought-substance to another "one" outside of his immediate brain.
If one falls to meet the above criteria his communication (or rather, attempted communication, because it evidently is obviously evident it has failed) is A priori utterly useless. If the one who attempted communication in such a circumstance tries to argue his purported ideas are correct, the responding "one" can only smirk contemptuously in response and refuse to accept those previously referred to ideas because accepting what one does not understand is folly. Or you're a pedophile catholic (pause for laughs).
To speak poetically in an attempt summarize my position, perhaps you are what one might (in a "flight of whimsy") call a "logic-prophet" shouting the true truth from his rock of truth. However, if your audience does not understand the inexorable force of your reason you have failed to to effectively communicate and discussion of your ideas is LITERALLY AND FIGURATIVELY impossible, illogical, and it's usefulness score is = to ZERO. (and can non-falsely be considered to be insane [for what is insanity but that].
In summary:
On May 05 2013 11:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:
This is actually quite interesting.
False.
On May 05 2013 11:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:
This is actually quite interesting. I think this trade-off of power would encourage more interesting battles,
False again, it wouldn't.
On May 05 2013 11:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:
but it's not exactly necessary as the mine in it's current state is generally regarded as fine.
True, but also in some ways false, for the mine isn't regarded by generals to be fine.
On May 05 2013 11:12 DemigodcelpH wrote:
it's
Illogical
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What the hell is going on in this thread?
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On May 05 2013 23:02 diverzee wrote:
How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve.
Mutalisk was buffed due to WM.
Spore not requiring evo was also due to WM.
Phoenix got their +1 range.
Toss player all go Stargate these day in fear of Mutalisk play.
Buffing Hydra as a better AA is good idea but it must be a very slight buff.
But it won't change ZvZ.
In order for Muta to be not dominant in ZvZ, you must nerf Muta.
Muta gives insane map control.
So i got no idea why Blizz buff spores.
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On May 05 2013 23:14 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:02 diverzee wrote:
How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve. Mutalisk was buffed due to WM. Spore not requiring evo was also due to WM. Phoenix got their +1 range. Toss player all go Stargate these day in fear of Mutalisk play. Buffing Hydra as a better AA is good idea but it must be a very slight buff. But it won't change ZvZ. In order for Muta to be not dominant in ZvZ, you must nerf Muta. Muta gives insane map control. So i got no idea why Blizz buff spores.
Didn't they say that they wanted to buff zergs midgame options when they nerfed the infestor and the mutalisk regeneration and the hydralisk speed at lair the burrow and overlord speed at hatchery tech were the results?
Whatever it is, I think the main problem is simply that in the midgame when you don't have a lot of money to spend, the mutalisk counts get very high and they never die. It's similar in PvZ if you don't use phoenixes and don't allin, the mutacount just gets so high and the defense needed is just so much more expensive than in TvZ (mines, marines, repairable turrets) when you defend with hydralisk/infestor stalker/archon/HT.
So you have to dedicate much more to defense and can't expand/pressure as much as a Terran while the mutas just heal up and harass and heal up...
I think it would be easiest to just remove the tissue regeneration or remove.
However, though the superspores may not work alone, I think it is the right idea. Make defending mutalisks somewhat cheap, so that the mutalisk player can't control your army movement as hard as right now.
One thing I want to point out still is that even in WoL we had that ling/bling/infestor/ultralisk style popping up for some time in ZvZ. It never really became standard, but I believe a huge part of this was how much infestors countered zerglings/banelings. With the weaker infestor, I think zergling based play alone is already stronger than it used to be, and the mutalisk might not even be as much of an issue. It's rather that the zergling alone may dominate the matchup and the mutalisk may just be a result of this, as it is one of the only units that can really combat zergling/baneling in terms of mapcontrol AND combatabilities in ZvZ. (the roach obviously can do so to a certain extend, but skipping hydras in favor of a strong roach army isn't really viable with the mutas in the picture, and so we come back to zerglings/banelings being really costefficient)
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Hope this is the right thread to complain about a unit, annyway here it goes
Complaint:Oracle kills workers to fast
Problem:The oracle kills workers way to fast, 1 oracle kills workers faster then 3 blue flame hellions before the nerve to blue flame, on top of that it also easily kills 5 marines wich is about the only anti air terran can have at the time an early oracle comes.
Solution:Make oracle do less damage to workers/marines, at least less then the crazy speed it kills workers/marines with now.
Side effects:none, i can only see good things come from this.
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On May 06 2013 00:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 23:14 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2013 23:02 diverzee wrote:
How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve. Mutalisk was buffed due to WM. Spore not requiring evo was also due to WM. Phoenix got their +1 range. Toss player all go Stargate these day in fear of Mutalisk play. Buffing Hydra as a better AA is good idea but it must be a very slight buff. But it won't change ZvZ. In order for Muta to be not dominant in ZvZ, you must nerf Muta. Muta gives insane map control. So i got no idea why Blizz buff spores. Didn't they say that they wanted to buff zergs midgame options when they nerfed the infestor and the mutalisk regeneration and the hydralisk speed at lair the burrow and overlord speed at hatchery tech were the results? Whatever it is, I think the main problem is simply that in the midgame when you don't have a lot of money to spend, the mutalisk counts get very high and they never die. It's similar in PvZ if you don't use phoenixes and don't allin, the mutacount just gets so high and the defense needed is just so much more expensive than in TvZ (mines, marines, repairable turrets) when you defend with hydralisk/infestor stalker/archon/HT. So you have to dedicate much more to defense and can't expand/pressure as much as a Terran while the mutas just heal up and harass and heal up... I think it would be easiest to just remove the tissue regeneration or remove. However, though the superspores may not work alone, I think it is the right idea. Make defending mutalisks somewhat cheap, so that the mutalisk player can't control your army movement as hard as right now. One thing I want to point out still is that even in WoL we had that ling/bling/infestor/ultralisk style popping up for some time in ZvZ. It never really became standard, but I believe a huge part of this was how much infestors countered zerglings/banelings. With the weaker infestor, I think zergling based play alone is already stronger than it used to be, and the mutalisk might not even be as much of an issue. It's rather that the zergling alone may dominate the matchup and the mutalisk may just be a result of this, as it is one of the only units that can really combat zergling/baneling in terms of mapcontrol AND combatabilities in ZvZ. (the roach obviously can do so to a certain extend, but skipping hydras in favor of a strong roach army isn't really viable with the mutas in the picture, and so we come back to zerglings/banelings being really costefficient)
Yeah it is the right idea.
But they won't remove tissue regeneration.
If they did,they would need to reduce WM damage output and Phoenix +1 range
Mutalisk buff and Hydra speed upgrade was given in relative to Infestor overall nerf.
I don't think PvZ Mass Muta is a issue.
It just that P standard play is to go stargate all the time.
And that's why PvZ has kinda become one-dimensional.
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On May 06 2013 00:33 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 00:13 Big J wrote:On May 05 2013 23:14 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2013 23:02 diverzee wrote:
How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve. Mutalisk was buffed due to WM. Spore not requiring evo was also due to WM. Phoenix got their +1 range. Toss player all go Stargate these day in fear of Mutalisk play. Buffing Hydra as a better AA is good idea but it must be a very slight buff. But it won't change ZvZ. In order for Muta to be not dominant in ZvZ, you must nerf Muta. Muta gives insane map control. So i got no idea why Blizz buff spores. Didn't they say that they wanted to buff zergs midgame options when they nerfed the infestor and the mutalisk regeneration and the hydralisk speed at lair the burrow and overlord speed at hatchery tech were the results? Whatever it is, I think the main problem is simply that in the midgame when you don't have a lot of money to spend, the mutalisk counts get very high and they never die. It's similar in PvZ if you don't use phoenixes and don't allin, the mutacount just gets so high and the defense needed is just so much more expensive than in TvZ (mines, marines, repairable turrets) when you defend with hydralisk/infestor stalker/archon/HT. So you have to dedicate much more to defense and can't expand/pressure as much as a Terran while the mutas just heal up and harass and heal up... I think it would be easiest to just remove the tissue regeneration or remove. However, though the superspores may not work alone, I think it is the right idea. Make defending mutalisks somewhat cheap, so that the mutalisk player can't control your army movement as hard as right now. One thing I want to point out still is that even in WoL we had that ling/bling/infestor/ultralisk style popping up for some time in ZvZ. It never really became standard, but I believe a huge part of this was how much infestors countered zerglings/banelings. With the weaker infestor, I think zergling based play alone is already stronger than it used to be, and the mutalisk might not even be as much of an issue. It's rather that the zergling alone may dominate the matchup and the mutalisk may just be a result of this, as it is one of the only units that can really combat zergling/baneling in terms of mapcontrol AND combatabilities in ZvZ. (the roach obviously can do so to a certain extend, but skipping hydras in favor of a strong roach army isn't really viable with the mutas in the picture, and so we come back to zerglings/banelings being really costefficient) Yeah it is the right idea. But they won't remove tissue regeneration. If they did,they would need to reduce WM damage output and Phoenix +1 range Mutalisk buff and Hydra speed upgrade was given in relative to Infestor overall nerf. I don't think PvZ Mass Muta is a issue. It just that P standard play is to go stargate all the time. And that's why PvZ has kinda become one-dimensional.
Oh, I don't think mass muta is an issue in PvZ.
I also don't think it's stale that Protoss kind of has to be ready in the midgame (and only in the midgame! a lategame mutaswitch won't do very much to a Protoss who sits on 50supply of AA capable units like Stalkers and Archons and Void Rays and has a templar archives and blink already) to switch into phoenixes. After all, the alternative PvZ playstyle seems to be to open very stale with robo and then turtle to either a ground- or an airdeathball.
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On May 06 2013 02:18 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 01:33 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 00:33 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 00:13 Big J wrote:On May 05 2013 23:14 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2013 23:02 diverzee wrote:
How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve. Mutalisk was buffed due to WM. Spore not requiring evo was also due to WM. Phoenix got their +1 range. Toss player all go Stargate these day in fear of Mutalisk play. Buffing Hydra as a better AA is good idea but it must be a very slight buff. But it won't change ZvZ. In order for Muta to be not dominant in ZvZ, you must nerf Muta. Muta gives insane map control. So i got no idea why Blizz buff spores. Didn't they say that they wanted to buff zergs midgame options when they nerfed the infestor and the mutalisk regeneration and the hydralisk speed at lair the burrow and overlord speed at hatchery tech were the results? Whatever it is, I think the main problem is simply that in the midgame when you don't have a lot of money to spend, the mutalisk counts get very high and they never die. It's similar in PvZ if you don't use phoenixes and don't allin, the mutacount just gets so high and the defense needed is just so much more expensive than in TvZ (mines, marines, repairable turrets) when you defend with hydralisk/infestor stalker/archon/HT. So you have to dedicate much more to defense and can't expand/pressure as much as a Terran while the mutas just heal up and harass and heal up... I think it would be easiest to just remove the tissue regeneration or remove. However, though the superspores may not work alone, I think it is the right idea. Make defending mutalisks somewhat cheap, so that the mutalisk player can't control your army movement as hard as right now. One thing I want to point out still is that even in WoL we had that ling/bling/infestor/ultralisk style popping up for some time in ZvZ. It never really became standard, but I believe a huge part of this was how much infestors countered zerglings/banelings. With the weaker infestor, I think zergling based play alone is already stronger than it used to be, and the mutalisk might not even be as much of an issue. It's rather that the zergling alone may dominate the matchup and the mutalisk may just be a result of this, as it is one of the only units that can really combat zergling/baneling in terms of mapcontrol AND combatabilities in ZvZ. (the roach obviously can do so to a certain extend, but skipping hydras in favor of a strong roach army isn't really viable with the mutas in the picture, and so we come back to zerglings/banelings being really costefficient) Yeah it is the right idea. But they won't remove tissue regeneration. If they did,they would need to reduce WM damage output and Phoenix +1 range Mutalisk buff and Hydra speed upgrade was given in relative to Infestor overall nerf. I don't think PvZ Mass Muta is a issue. It just that P standard play is to go stargate all the time. And that's why PvZ has kinda become one-dimensional. Oh, I don't think mass muta is an issue in PvZ. I also don't think it's stale that Protoss kind of has to be ready in the midgame (and only in the midgame! a lategame mutaswitch won't do very much to a Protoss who sits on 50supply of AA capable units like Stalkers and Archons and Void Rays and has a templar archives and blink already) to switch into phoenixes. After all, the alternative PvZ playstyle seems to be to open very stale with robo and then turtle to either a ground- or an airdeathball. I think ZvP is actually in a better place then it has been for a long time. Mutas, Swarm host and Hydra focused compositions are all viable in the mid game making for much better variety then wings. For the first time in a long time we are seeing a plethora of new ZvP strategies. Not to mention that Ultras are way more fun to watch then BLs and void rays are more fun to watch than Colossi.
+1 ZvP is a lot more dynamic now and is becoming a really fun match up to watch. So much better than BL + infestor walkover or immortal/sentry all-in every game.
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Northern Ireland25944 Posts
Hahaha fine post -_-
Oracle annoys me because of the aforementioned overlap with the Phoenix, which was IMO the best finesse harass unit in the game. Im not sure what I'd do with it other than make it augment other comps rather than being yet another glass cannon
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What are everyones thoughts on PvZ mutas? The MSC has improved static D as well as being able to recall to defend vs muta base races but I feel when playing protoss that mutas trade really really well against stalkers. Is the answer to just cut out stalkers once the muta count gets too high and focus on storm archons if I don't go for double or triple stargate?
From what I've seen, if I don't stargate vs mass muta or push immediately with stalker/archon its too difficult to hold bases 4 and 5+.
Is this exactly a problem? Is the stargate meant to be a necessity when rounding out your tech in all matchups? I might be looking at this the wrong way.
Edit: Also, not exactly on topic but what is the reasoning to have the oracle as a harass rather than a caster? (like the sentry or HT in terms of supporting role) Phoenix already fill the role of fast worker and light unit harass.
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On May 05 2013 23:10 -_- wrote:
I have assiduously studied all your posts and come to following logically ineluctable conclusions....
If one falls to meet the above criteria his communication...
Your entire point collapses when you realize that any abstract concepts I've gone over, which are and were necessary to the discussion, have been reiterated in simple English by myself on multiple occasions solely for the purpose of being accommodating; furthermore throwing words in from a thesaurus is simply not the equivalent of using advanced language to legitimately discuss advanced concepts. It's a (ironically) simple truth that properly explaining the subjective or objective nature of something is going to require some advanced language, and if you can't handle it don't behave in such an immature way. These two points, particularly the fact that I've already gone out of my way reiterate difficult areas in simple English, makes this entire parody fall flat on it's irrelevant face.
The rest of your post is non-admissible without supporting evidence and is, for some odd reason, focused on a non-directly related aside I made about mines after the actual argument concluded. You're lashing out simply because you didn't like my attitude and that I happened to win the debate, but you're going to have to deal with it. I will respect that you're a forum veteran, and I understand your exaggerated reaction is likely because my tone was snobbish, but I think you should at least be reasonable and consider the entire scope.
On May 06 2013 00:14 Rassy wrote:
Hope this is the right thread to complain about a unit, annyway here it goes
Complaint:Oracle kills workers to fast
Problem:The oracle kills workers way to fast, 1 oracle kills workers faster then 3 blue flame hellions before the nerve to blue flame, on top of that it also easily kills 5 marines wich is about the only anti air terran can have at the time an early oracle comes.
Solution:Make oracle do less damage to workers/marines, at least less then the crazy speed it kills workers/marines with now.
Side effects:none, i can only see good things come from this.
The issue with the Oracle is that Blizzard is justifying it's raw power because of how one-dimensional the design is. Like melee AD carrys in League of Legends it either does a lot of damage, or it doesn't, and there's not much of a middle ground. However, unlike the concept of the melee carry, the oracle doesn't scale and is immediately game-ending if unchecked resulting in a lot of coin-flip.
That said I do think Revelation and Envision are underused solely considering the raw utility they provide, so I don't know if blindly buffing it (as opposed to revisiting it's black and white power scheme) is the correct option.
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On May 06 2013 03:05 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 02:18 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 06 2013 01:33 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 00:33 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 00:13 Big J wrote:On May 05 2013 23:14 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2013 23:02 diverzee wrote:
How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve. Mutalisk was buffed due to WM. Spore not requiring evo was also due to WM. Phoenix got their +1 range. Toss player all go Stargate these day in fear of Mutalisk play. Buffing Hydra as a better AA is good idea but it must be a very slight buff. But it won't change ZvZ. In order for Muta to be not dominant in ZvZ, you must nerf Muta. Muta gives insane map control. So i got no idea why Blizz buff spores. Didn't they say that they wanted to buff zergs midgame options when they nerfed the infestor and the mutalisk regeneration and the hydralisk speed at lair the burrow and overlord speed at hatchery tech were the results? Whatever it is, I think the main problem is simply that in the midgame when you don't have a lot of money to spend, the mutalisk counts get very high and they never die. It's similar in PvZ if you don't use phoenixes and don't allin, the mutacount just gets so high and the defense needed is just so much more expensive than in TvZ (mines, marines, repairable turrets) when you defend with hydralisk/infestor stalker/archon/HT. So you have to dedicate much more to defense and can't expand/pressure as much as a Terran while the mutas just heal up and harass and heal up... I think it would be easiest to just remove the tissue regeneration or remove. However, though the superspores may not work alone, I think it is the right idea. Make defending mutalisks somewhat cheap, so that the mutalisk player can't control your army movement as hard as right now. One thing I want to point out still is that even in WoL we had that ling/bling/infestor/ultralisk style popping up for some time in ZvZ. It never really became standard, but I believe a huge part of this was how much infestors countered zerglings/banelings. With the weaker infestor, I think zergling based play alone is already stronger than it used to be, and the mutalisk might not even be as much of an issue. It's rather that the zergling alone may dominate the matchup and the mutalisk may just be a result of this, as it is one of the only units that can really combat zergling/baneling in terms of mapcontrol AND combatabilities in ZvZ. (the roach obviously can do so to a certain extend, but skipping hydras in favor of a strong roach army isn't really viable with the mutas in the picture, and so we come back to zerglings/banelings being really costefficient) Yeah it is the right idea. But they won't remove tissue regeneration. If they did,they would need to reduce WM damage output and Phoenix +1 range Mutalisk buff and Hydra speed upgrade was given in relative to Infestor overall nerf. I don't think PvZ Mass Muta is a issue. It just that P standard play is to go stargate all the time. And that's why PvZ has kinda become one-dimensional. Oh, I don't think mass muta is an issue in PvZ. I also don't think it's stale that Protoss kind of has to be ready in the midgame (and only in the midgame! a lategame mutaswitch won't do very much to a Protoss who sits on 50supply of AA capable units like Stalkers and Archons and Void Rays and has a templar archives and blink already) to switch into phoenixes. After all, the alternative PvZ playstyle seems to be to open very stale with robo and then turtle to either a ground- or an airdeathball. I think ZvP is actually in a better place then it has been for a long time. Mutas, Swarm host and Hydra focused compositions are all viable in the mid game making for much better variety then wings. For the first time in a long time we are seeing a plethora of new ZvP strategies. Not to mention that Ultras are way more fun to watch then BLs and void rays are more fun to watch than Colossi. +1 ZvP is a lot more dynamic now and is becoming a really fun match up to watch. So much better than BL + infestor walkover or immortal/sentry all-in every game.
While i agree with the more dynamic part, how often do you see swarm host winning game? In fact, how often do you even see swarm host at all.
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On May 06 2013 03:25 S7EFEN wrote:
What are everyones thoughts on PvZ mutas? The MSC has improved static D as well as being able to recall to defend vs muta base races but I feel when playing protoss that mutas trade really really well against stalkers. Is the answer to just cut out stalkers once the muta count gets too high and focus on storm archons if I don't go for double or triple stargate?
From what I've seen, if I don't stargate vs mass muta or push immediately with stalker/archon its too difficult to hold bases 4 and 5+.
Is this exactly a problem? Is the stargate meant to be a necessity when rounding out your tech in all matchups? I might be looking at this the wrong way.
Edit: Also, not exactly on topic but what is the reasoning to have the oracle as a harass rather than a caster? (like the sentry or HT in terms of supporting role) Phoenix already fill the role of fast worker and light unit harass.
I think you are kind of bound to open either with a lot of scouting early to rule everything else out, or you open phoenix and keep a healthy count 5+ of them up and be ready to throw down a second stargate in the midgame if something like a ~12min mutaswitch comes.
But I don't think it's imbalanced, you just have to be aware in that certain time periode that your opponent can go heavy muta and react correctly.
I think once you have a mining third and blink the hardest part is over and mutaswitches become far less powerful, unless you lose your whole army.
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On May 06 2013 03:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
Hahaha fine post -_-
Oracle annoys me because of the aforementioned overlap with the Phoenix, which was IMO the best finesse harass unit in the game. Im not sure what I'd do with it other than make it augment other comps rather than being yet another glass cannon
Indeed -_-. It gave me a solid chuckle on a rainy gloomy Monday morning.
Wasn't the Oracle in one of it's original incarnations in beta meant to complement the Phoenix? In taking out static defense (iirc)? I really can't remember. There seem to have been a few iterations of that unit.
Also jacson123, I'm not sure interceptors should be built for free, and in any case like ghanburigan states they take too long to build, but it would be nice (imo) if their shields regenerated instantly on return to the carrier. I don't believe they do, atm.
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On May 05 2013 23:13 Bagi wrote:
What the hell is going on in this thread?
No one knows for sure... the only thing that's certain is that balance sure isn't being discussed...
There should be a set rule of guidelines for this kind of thing... otherwise it just turns to crap with no real progress ever being made. No one can ever come to a consensus or mutual agreement.
Something like this:
Topic: Unit or ability name here
Statement: Overpowered / Underpowered
Situtation: Details
Solutions: Explain
Example:
Topic: Hydralisks
Statement: Underpowered
Situtation: Not fast enough to micro
Solutions: I suggest Muscular Augments be added to improve speed off creep. This will take the unit from underpowered to useful because it can be moved out of harms way when off creep for tactical purposes rather than being a high cost suicide unit off creep.
And then let discussion flow from there. It's much easier to see flaws when written this way, so the writer and the reader can properly talk about it without getting all pissy.
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On May 06 2013 04:43 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 03:17 Wombat_NI wrote:
Hahaha fine post -_-
Oracle annoys me because of the aforementioned overlap with the Phoenix, which was IMO the best finesse harass unit in the game. Im not sure what I'd do with it other than make it augment other comps rather than being yet another glass cannon Indeed -_-. It gave me a solid chuckle on a rainy gloomy Monday morning. Wasn't the Oracle in one of it's original incarnations in beta meant to complement the Phoenix? In taking out static defense (iirc)? I really can't remember. There seem to have been a few iterations of that unit.
Yep, it could encase both minerals and fixed defense in some force field thingie (seperate spells).
Bit offtopic (okay completely), but if you look at what was announced for hots the zerg pretty much got that exactly, terran lost everything except hellbat (and that was significantly changed, but in essence the same), and I think toss effectively didn't get anything from what was announced. (Oracle and tempest are so heavily changed they have nothing to do anymore with the ones presented initially).
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On May 06 2013 03:05 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2013 02:18 Emzeeshady wrote:On May 06 2013 01:33 Big J wrote:On May 06 2013 00:33 FakeDeath wrote:On May 06 2013 00:13 Big J wrote:On May 05 2013 23:14 FakeDeath wrote:On May 05 2013 23:02 diverzee wrote:
How can someone waste so much time, writing posts so long and yet so lacking in conveying anything close to a message? Thus shamelessly and single-handedly derailing a thread. If I was butchering my first language like that I would be so embarrased.
I think some issues with Zerg balance, and the mirror matchup in particular would be solved if Hydralisks were given higher damage to aerial targets. They would make a harder counter to mutalisks, and they would fare better against a skytoss army. Their strength vs ground based targets is good in all matchups (perhaps too strong in ZvP?) but as anti-air units they are weak (even phoenices are good at picking them off.)
Why are the mutalisks regenerating so fast? What lack in balance is that supposed to address? They are likely too strong vs Protoss, and too strong vs Zerg. I believe that by weakening the mutalisk and making the hydralisk stronger that the balance of ZvP and the diversity of units displayed in ZvZ both improve. Mutalisk was buffed due to WM. Spore not requiring evo was also due to WM. Phoenix got their +1 range. Toss player all go Stargate these day in fear of Mutalisk play. Buffing Hydra as a better AA is good idea but it must be a very slight buff. But it won't change ZvZ. In order for Muta to be not dominant in ZvZ, you must nerf Muta. Muta gives insane map control. So i got no idea why Blizz buff spores. Didn't they say that they wanted to buff zergs midgame options when they nerfed the infestor and the mutalisk regeneration and the hydralisk speed at lair the burrow and overlord speed at hatchery tech were the results? Whatever it is, I think the main problem is simply that in the midgame when you don't have a lot of money to spend, the mutalisk counts get very high and they never die. It's similar in PvZ if you don't use phoenixes and don't allin, the mutacount just gets so high and the defense needed is just so much more expensive than in TvZ (mines, marines, repairable turrets) when you defend with hydralisk/infestor stalker/archon/HT. So you have to dedicate much more to defense and can't expand/pressure as much as a Terran while the mutas just heal up and harass and heal up... I think it would be easiest to just remove the tissue regeneration or remove. However, though the superspores may not work alone, I think it is the right idea. Make defending mutalisks somewhat cheap, so that the mutalisk player can't control your army movement as hard as right now. One thing I want to point out still is that even in WoL we had that ling/bling/infestor/ultralisk style popping up for some time in ZvZ. It never really became standard, but I believe a huge part of this was how much infestors countered zerglings/banelings. With the weaker infestor, I think zergling based play alone is already stronger than it used to be, and the mutalisk might not even be as much of an issue. It's rather that the zergling alone may dominate the matchup and the mutalisk may just be a result of this, as it is one of the only units that can really combat zergling/baneling in terms of mapcontrol AND combatabilities in ZvZ. (the roach obviously can do so to a certain extend, but skipping hydras in favor of a strong roach army isn't really viable with the mutas in the picture, and so we come back to zerglings/banelings being really costefficient) Yeah it is the right idea. But they won't remove tissue regeneration. If they did,they would need to reduce WM damage output and Phoenix +1 range Mutalisk buff and Hydra speed upgrade was given in relative to Infestor overall nerf. I don't think PvZ Mass Muta is a issue. It just that P standard play is to go stargate all the time. And that's why PvZ has kinda become one-dimensional. Oh, I don't think mass muta is an issue in PvZ. I also don't think it's stale that Protoss kind of has to be ready in the midgame (and only in the midgame! a lategame mutaswitch won't do very much to a Protoss who sits on 50supply of AA capable units like Stalkers and Archons and Void Rays and has a templar archives and blink already) to switch into phoenixes. After all, the alternative PvZ playstyle seems to be to open very stale with robo and then turtle to either a ground- or an airdeathball. I think ZvP is actually in a better place then it has been for a long time. Mutas, Swarm host and Hydra focused compositions are all viable in the mid game making for much better variety then wings. For the first time in a long time we are seeing a plethora of new ZvP strategies. Not to mention that Ultras are way more fun to watch then BLs and void rays are more fun to watch than Colossi. +1 ZvP is a lot more dynamic now and is becoming a really fun match up to watch. So much better than BL + infestor walkover or immortal/sentry all-in every game.
The MU is definitely more dynamic, but more on the Zerg side. Aside from some cool all-ins Protoss players do the same thing every standard game, yet Zerg can choose from several diverse strategies and compositions to meet that on equal footing (and certain maps lending advantages). Playing Protoss standard nowadays, in PvZ, feels like I'm playing as a Zerg at the end of WoL, though not quite as bad. I think this discussion is becoming really hard because the balance of the game is becoming really good, maybe we need to change the topic to: Is the game fun to play/watch?.
A game might be balanced, not necessarily fun to play or watch and, I think, that the objective of balance must be accompanied by such questions: What if we have a perfectly balanced game? Can we make changes so that the game remains balanced, but more fun?
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