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On July 21 2012 23:40 EscPlan9 wrote:
I'm amazed this thread isn't closed by now. It certainly hasn't helped with stopping balance discussions from being spread into other threads (most noteably, every damn LR thread)
I think it served part of its purpose well, at least there isn't 10 thread every week about someone's amazing, totally unbiased and never heard before *cough*cough* idea to nerf X and buff Y.
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On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:
building a supply depot:
select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously
building an overlord:
select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously
It is just not true - you dont have to rally overlord during its building stage,because you have rally points set up for all units beforehand. Method that you showed is not effective at all and only inflates APM that are needed to build Overlord.
In fact terran needs 5 actions to build Supply, Zerg needs 3 and also it doesnt requires precise mouse clicks for Zerg.
What is more Zerg is the only race in the game that can assign units to groups during production process.
Also, Zerg builds much less buildings during entire game, and their bases functions as unit production facilities.
It is race with the easiest macro by far. You cant stockpile larva injects, but from mechanical standpoint it is very easy macro mechanic.
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So, I'm going to set the example for you guys, so you can stop telling each other how hard your race is and just enjoy the freaking game.
Problem: Zerg can get superstrong economy by opening 6 queens which makes the midgame (and thus the endgame) very hard for Terran to keep up with.
Solution: Buff Siege Tanks (Splash radius or damage (preferable set damage to ±50 vs all)
Side Effects: Mech becomes more viable, Tanks become a viable backbone in the midgame vs Protoss (instead of tanks killing themselves faster than the zealots do) and Terran becomes a lot stronger against mass ling builds, which seem popular atm.
This was just a random solution. Options like buff Raven HSM range, nerf Queen range to 4, Nitro Packs back to tech lab, Ghost Snipe deals 45 (30 vs Massive), Vikings get an expensive splash upgrade at Fusion Core (I like that,there's to little emphasis on Air this game) Etc Etc Sky is the limit.
I challenge you both, Terran and Zerg players, to come up with some decent (AND FAIR) buffs and nerfs to units and talk about a solution together.
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I've observed that Terran and Zerg master's players have way more APM than Protoss players, the difference is really very large, occasionally you hit a high-APM protoss but its rare, its not uncommon for Protoss to play at sub 80EAPM, however its very very rare to get a Terran/Zerg lower than 80. Any theories?
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On July 22 2012 00:11 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:
building a supply depot:
select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously
building an overlord:
select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously
It is just not true - you dont have to rally overlord during its building stage,because you have rally points set up for all units beforehand. Method that you showed is not effective at all and only inflates APM that are needed to build Overlord. In fact terran needs 5 actions to build Supply, Zerg needs 3 and also it doesnt requires precise mouse clicks for Zerg. What is more Zerg is the only race in the game that can assign units to groups during production process. Also, Zerg builds much less buildings during entire game, and their bases functions as unit production facilities. It is race with the easiest macro by far. You cant stockpile larva injects, but from mechanical standpoint it is very easy macro mechanic.
I added the rally click because it doesn't matter wether you rally them after they finish or while you build them. You are going to do it once and therefore it is goin in as one action.
If you claim that Zerg has fewer clicks macrowise (like if you claim you don't need to rally the OL at all etc), then it means that zergs are outmoving and outmicroing the other races quite hard, because they have thesame (or even slightly more) (E)APM, which they have to spend somewhere. --> if it is not macro, then it means it's army movement and micro.
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On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:24 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult. Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click. If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg. But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive... Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof. I don't care if you buy it. It's a fact. Macro for Zerg happens at fixed intervals since Inject/Tumors have a cooldown. This makes it mindless and means it doesn't interrupt the decision making process. Kiting/Forcefielding etc require reaction time and stop you from doing anything else for an extended period of time. Larva Inject doesn't. If you truly need to do an engagement, you can delay Larva Inject. You can't delay Forcefielding/Kiting or you die straight up. I don't care about EAPM because Spreading Creep and Injecting and Overlord rallying takes a lot of effective clicks, despite being mindless. I guarantee that Terrans aren't building 10 Supply Depots at a time, so the APM increase from making one is tiny. Basically, you have no argument at all. just saying random stuff doesn't help you. You claim zergs build Xoverlords at once, Terrans build each supply depot one by one. Hm... guess who has spent more APM on repetitive macro then. Spoiler alert: after you did the math (correctly), it's going to be the Terran. building a supply depot: select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously building an overlord: select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously supply cap for Terran = 200; supply depot gives 8 supply cap for Zerg = 200; overlord gives 8 --> in the end a Terran has spent more APM on depots, than a Zerg on Overlords, but it's basically very similar. Don't want to claim anyone's macro is harder. But your argument that building OLs takes more EAPM as building depots is just wrong. SO WRONG! But yeah, please tell me more about the incredible, incredible skill of P/Ts that have to fight brainless zerg players, with easy mechanics that every T/P would be capable of, but they are just waaaaaaaaaaay to rich to switch race and earn a few hundred thousand bucks with zerg.
You're missing the entire argument to argue about something that's not really the point.
Zerg players have to make great decisions to win games, but in terms of engagements - the amount of micro (or APM at the time of engagement) is basically reduced to fungal this, infested terran that and make sure blings don't blow up all on tanks/marauders/stuff that you can't trade effectively.
Compared to what other races do during engagements, this is nothing.
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On July 22 2012 00:15 sibs wrote:
I've observed that Terran and Zerg master's players have way more APM than Protoss players, the difference is really very large, occasionally you hit a high-APM protoss but its rare, its not uncommon for Protoss to play at sub 80EAPM, however its very very rare to get a Terran/Zerg lower than 80. Any theories?
I would say it's how Protoss focuses on a giant death ball or really in 1 area rather than Zerg's who spread creep, injects, and keep zerglings on the move and Terran's who have to drop and/or do damage in some way to not die in late game + macro mechanics.
I dunno, I watch my Protoss friends play and they seem to get by with decision making alone rather than speed, which could be harder or easier, whatever
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On July 22 2012 00:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 00:11 Embir wrote:On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:
building a supply depot:
select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously
building an overlord:
select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously
It is just not true - you dont have to rally overlord during its building stage,because you have rally points set up for all units beforehand. Method that you showed is not effective at all and only inflates APM that are needed to build Overlord. In fact terran needs 5 actions to build Supply, Zerg needs 3 and also it doesnt requires precise mouse clicks for Zerg. What is more Zerg is the only race in the game that can assign units to groups during production process. Also, Zerg builds much less buildings during entire game, and their bases functions as unit production facilities. It is race with the easiest macro by far. You cant stockpile larva injects, but from mechanical standpoint it is very easy macro mechanic. I added the rally click because it doesn't matter wether you rally them after they finish or while you build them. You are going to do it once and therefore it is goin in as one action. If you claim that Zerg has fewer clicks macrowise (like if you claim you don't need to rally the OL at all etc), then it means that zergs are outmoving and outmicroing the other races quite hard, because they have thesame (or even slightly more) (E)APM, which they have to spend somewhere. --> if it is not macro, then it means it's army movement and micro.
Wrong. Zerg's got high EAPM because they build units in waves - and then there are tremendous spikes in APM.
The rest is just constant production of Drones from newly spawned larvas.
Second, about Overlord rally - you shouldn't add rally overlord as another action because you can move a whole group of Overlords into selected location (so it is one action for, for example 20 overlords, not 20 actions for each overlord). Also you dont have to move each Overlord - you can send some of them in strategic points, the rest often stays in rally point or is moved under one of the bases.
Third. It is not only about number of clicks, but also about how much precise mouse moves and mouse clicks player has to do - and it is obvious that precise mouse clicks are much more demanding and slower then key clicks - it is fundament of whole idea of hotkeys. In this regard Zerg is MUCH MUCH LESS demanding then Terran.
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On July 22 2012 00:11 Toastie.NL wrote:
So, I'm going to set the example for you guys, so you can stop telling each other how hard your race is and just enjoy the freaking game.
Problem: Zerg can get superstrong economy by opening 6 queens which makes the midgame (and thus the endgame) very hard for Terran to keep up with.
Solution: Buff Siege Tanks (Splash radius or damage (preferable set damage to ±50 vs all)
Side Effects: Mech becomes more viable, Tanks become a viable backbone in the midgame vs Protoss (instead of tanks killing themselves faster than the zealots do) and Terran becomes a lot stronger against mass ling builds, which seem popular atm.
This was just a random solution. Options like buff Raven HSM range, nerf Queen range to 4, Nitro Packs back to tech lab, Ghost Snipe deals 45 (30 vs Massive), Vikings get an expensive splash upgrade at Fusion Core (I like that,there's to little emphasis on Air this game) Etc Etc Sky is the limit.
I challenge you both, Terran and Zerg players, to come up with some decent (AND FAIR) buffs and nerfs to units and talk about a solution together.
I could be wrong, but I can see buffing siege tanks leading to extremely boring games. ZvT was pretty balanced before the patch (I'm not saying it isn't now), and suddenly making siege tanks stronger really doesn't strike me as an intelligent solution. In my opinion, if you have a game that was relatively balanced at one point, you change something, and suddenly it becomes unbalanced, the logical thing to do would be to revert the changes that made it so in the first place.
Unfortunately for me, Blizzard wants zerg to be stronger in the early game. I don't actually see a problem with the queen, if a zerg decides to spend 900-1200 minerals on a unit, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to compete with equal or lesser valued units. (lets be fair, if they weren't making the queens, they'd have that third going a whole lot quicker, seeing as the extra 3-5 queens cost 450-750 minerals. (translates to 9 - 15 drones). I see a lot of complaining that hellion can't do anything anymore, and I see no reason they should. If you spend 400 minerals on hellions, 1200 minerals of queens is logically going to deter that. Before the patch, zerg would just spend that 1200 minerals else where to prevent the hellions (spines, queens, yadda yadda).
I'm not familiar with terran at all, so I can't make any suggestions to change them, however I'm curious for someone who understand terran enough to do comparisons between their early timings and the queen defence. Is it really over powered, or is terran reacting in the wrong way to such a greedy style?
EDIT: Why the fuck is everyone arguing about APM?
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On July 21 2012 21:51 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:38 derpinator wrote:
The raven has 5 upgrades.. I repeat.. THE RAVEN HAS FIVE UPGRADES!!!! and its not worth researching even one of them lol The bunker has 6upgrades. I repeat. THE BUNKER HAS SIX UPGRADES!!!!! and it doesn't even need one of them to be good. Just to point out how stupid this talk about 5-6 raven upgrades is. It has essentially 2 important upgrades (energy, HSM), one that you should get anyways when going air (air ups), one that you should get anyway in the lategame because it's kind of cheap and kind of great in a ton of cases (hi-sec) and two weird ones, which I don't get how they made it into the game anyways, when applying the same argumentation as why lurkers were cut. (building armor, durable materials - though buidling armor is kind of like hi-sec, just weaker and the idea behind it kind of... well... why is it here? it could be as well on any race and still don't make sense, for protoss it would at least give a little bit of backup in basetrades, which they suck hard at atm).
Sorry, you talk bullshit and you apparently don't know the upgrades that are talked about.
The bunker has only 2 upgrades. Building armor and neosteel frames. Infantry weapons are NOT bunker upgrades. But even IF you count them in, that's only 5 upgrades. Hi-Sec Autotracking does not affect bunker range.
The raven in itself has Corvid Reactor (which isn't that useful, as there is no 75 energy spell), HSM (which actually isn't very useful, despite people making it out to be so great. It's 2 tankshots in one place), durable materials (which is only useful if you go mass ravens... so it's not useful), building armor (which is never worth researching for the turrets) and hi-sec autotracking (which again you would never research for the raven turrets alone).
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On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 00:16 Big J wrote:On July 22 2012 00:11 Embir wrote:On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:
building a supply depot:
select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously
building an overlord:
select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously
It is just not true - you dont have to rally overlord during its building stage,because you have rally points set up for all units beforehand. Method that you showed is not effective at all and only inflates APM that are needed to build Overlord. In fact terran needs 5 actions to build Supply, Zerg needs 3 and also it doesnt requires precise mouse clicks for Zerg. What is more Zerg is the only race in the game that can assign units to groups during production process. Also, Zerg builds much less buildings during entire game, and their bases functions as unit production facilities. It is race with the easiest macro by far. You cant stockpile larva injects, but from mechanical standpoint it is very easy macro mechanic. I added the rally click because it doesn't matter wether you rally them after they finish or while you build them. You are going to do it once and therefore it is goin in as one action. If you claim that Zerg has fewer clicks macrowise (like if you claim you don't need to rally the OL at all etc), then it means that zergs are outmoving and outmicroing the other races quite hard, because they have thesame (or even slightly more) (E)APM, which they have to spend somewhere. --> if it is not macro, then it means it's army movement and micro. Wrong. Zerg's got high EAPM because they build units in waves - and then there are tremendous spikes in APM. The rest is just constant production of Drones from newly spawned larvas.
it doesn't matter for average APM, that there are spikes. That's what average means.
On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:
Second, about Overlord rally - you shouldn't add rally overlord as another action because you can move a whole group of Overlords into selected location (so it is one action for, for example 20 overlords, not 20 actions for each overlord). Also you dont have to move each Overlord - you can send some of them in strategic points, the rest often stays in rally point or is moved under one of the bases.
Yeah, I also added the rally worker back, while a lot of times you don't want to do that, because you just queue up another depot with the same worker etc etc. It was not about being superexact and showing the best methode. It was about showing that the methodes take about the same APM for Zerg and Terran. If you think it is even harder for Terran, than the strengthens my arguement.
On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:
Third. It is not only about number of clicks, but also about how much precise mouse moves and mouse clicks player has to do - and it is obvious that precise mouse clicks are much more demanding and slower then key clicks - it is fundament of whole idea of hotkeys. In this regard Zerg is MUCH MUCH LESS demanding then Terran.
Proof or it isn't true.
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On July 22 2012 00:31 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 00:11 Toastie.NL wrote:
So, I'm going to set the example for you guys, so you can stop telling each other how hard your race is and just enjoy the freaking game.
Problem: Zerg can get superstrong economy by opening 6 queens which makes the midgame (and thus the endgame) very hard for Terran to keep up with.
Solution: Buff Siege Tanks (Splash radius or damage (preferable set damage to ±50 vs all)
Side Effects: Mech becomes more viable, Tanks become a viable backbone in the midgame vs Protoss (instead of tanks killing themselves faster than the zealots do) and Terran becomes a lot stronger against mass ling builds, which seem popular atm.
This was just a random solution. Options like buff Raven HSM range, nerf Queen range to 4, Nitro Packs back to tech lab, Ghost Snipe deals 45 (30 vs Massive), Vikings get an expensive splash upgrade at Fusion Core (I like that,there's to little emphasis on Air this game) Etc Etc Sky is the limit.
I challenge you both, Terran and Zerg players, to come up with some decent (AND FAIR) buffs and nerfs to units and talk about a solution together. I could be wrong, but I can see buffing siege tanks leading to extremely boring games. ZvT was pretty balanced before the patch (I'm not saying it isn't now), and suddenly making siege tanks stronger really doesn't strike me as an intelligent solution. In my opinion, if you have a game that was relatively balanced at one point, you change something, and suddenly it becomes unbalanced, the logical thing to do would be to revert the changes that made it so in the first place. Unfortunately for me, Blizzard wants zerg to be stronger in the early game. I don't actually see a problem with the queen, if a zerg decides to spend 900-1200 minerals on a unit, I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to compete with equal or lesser valued units. (lets be fair, if they weren't making the queens, they'd have that third going a whole lot quicker, seeing as the extra 3-5 queens cost 450-750 minerals. (translates to 9 - 15 drones). I see a lot of complaining that hellion can't do anything anymore, and I see no reason they should. If you spend 400 minerals on hellions, 1200 minerals of queens is logically going to deter that. Before the patch, zerg would just spend that 1200 minerals else where to prevent the hellions (spines, queens, yadda yadda). I'm not familiar with terran at all, so I can't make any suggestions to change them, however I'm curious for someone who understand terran enough to do comparisons between their early timings and the queen defence. Is it really over powered, or is terran reacting in the wrong way to such a greedy style? EDIT: Why the fuck is everyone arguing about APM?
The problem is that Terran and Zerg economies don't function the same.
In a mirror situation, you would say "He wasted 600 (it's 600 in 6 queen opener btw, as those 300 for the first 2 can't be seen as investments in the mass queen part) recourses on defensive units that can't attack me - Guess I'll go for another CC and double gas!" But against Zerg, it doesn't work that way.
Zerg is a race that grows exponentially given time. Their growth exceeds the grwth of any kind of macro Terran can do. Zerg will do it better, faster, and is better suited for it due to how their production works.
The Queen styles (I think it is a result of metagame development after the patch, not the patch itself) make it possible for Zerg to get up to 60 drones without making any units because they are safe against pretty much everything. All things are dealt with by 6 Queens and a round of Zerglings if needed.
Therefor, Zergs exponential economy doesn't get disrupted as it used to be, and Zerg has a massive lead in the midgame and lategame. Terran cannot 'punish' the Zerg for the greed with agression because of the queens, and Terran cannot punish with more greed because Zerg will have either the better economic growth, or make roaches and banelings and kill the Terran right there.
Terran needs to add on production facilities. For Terran to go up the level from 2 base to 3 base production costs more (estimated: 550 OC, 600 for 4 rax, 150/100 for Factory, 300 for Missile Turrets, 100 for Bunker, 250/225 for Add ons) that it does for Zerg to reap the same benefits of an extra base (300 minerals, Queens were already built).
The extra safety Queens Provide Zerg with makes it that Terran falls behind in the economic game because it is VERY HARD to do anything against the Zerg, to slow them and their exponential growth down.
To fix that, there's two things you can do:
- Strenghten Terran in the mid or lategame, so they can lock the Zerg economy at a certain level with a powerful push and get even in economy that way. This means, buffing Midgame so lategame occurs on even grounds, or buffing lategame so the disadvantage of Terran in the early/midgame is compensated for.
- Weaken Zerg in the early game so Terran is able to deal the damage and keep the economy of the Zerg in check,
I hope this analysis is understandable for you, and hopefully some other people in this thread get their eyes opened. Remember that this is all theoretical by the way.
Kind regards!
TLDR:
Because of how the Zerg economy works (exponentially) Terran gets behing in the economic game due to high Queen count openers. To compensate, Terran has to be buffed for mid/lategame or Zerg has to be nerfed in the early game. (Buff/Nerf with very few, small changes, preferably. The balance is razorthin in such a situation)
PS:
People argue about APM to 'proof' their race is the hardest...
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On July 22 2012 00:11 Toastie.NL wrote:
So, I'm going to set the example for you guys, so you can stop telling each other how hard your race is and just enjoy the freaking game.
Problem: Zerg can get superstrong economy by opening 6 queens which makes the midgame (and thus the endgame) very hard for Terran to keep up with.
Solution: Buff Siege Tanks (Splash radius or damage (preferable set damage to ±50 vs all)
Side Effects: Mech becomes more viable, Tanks become a viable backbone in the midgame vs Protoss (instead of tanks killing themselves faster than the zealots do) and Terran becomes a lot stronger against mass ling builds, which seem popular atm.
This was just a random solution. Options like buff Raven HSM range, nerf Queen range to 4, Nitro Packs back to tech lab, Ghost Snipe deals 45 (30 vs Massive), Vikings get an expensive splash upgrade at Fusion Core (I like that,there's to little emphasis on Air this game) Etc Etc Sky is the limit.
I challenge you both, Terran and Zerg players, to come up with some decent (AND FAIR) buffs and nerfs to units and talk about a solution together.
Ghost snipe would ideally:
50 energy, 10dmg (+45 vs psionic, +40 vs biological). Range increased to 12. Upon casting, the ghost starts taking aim and after a 6 second period shoots. If the target leaves vision or range, the spell is canceled.
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On July 22 2012 00:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:On July 22 2012 00:16 Big J wrote:On July 22 2012 00:11 Embir wrote:On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:
building a supply depot:
select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously
building an overlord:
select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously
It is just not true - you dont have to rally overlord during its building stage,because you have rally points set up for all units beforehand. Method that you showed is not effective at all and only inflates APM that are needed to build Overlord. In fact terran needs 5 actions to build Supply, Zerg needs 3 and also it doesnt requires precise mouse clicks for Zerg. What is more Zerg is the only race in the game that can assign units to groups during production process. Also, Zerg builds much less buildings during entire game, and their bases functions as unit production facilities. It is race with the easiest macro by far. You cant stockpile larva injects, but from mechanical standpoint it is very easy macro mechanic. I added the rally click because it doesn't matter wether you rally them after they finish or while you build them. You are going to do it once and therefore it is goin in as one action. If you claim that Zerg has fewer clicks macrowise (like if you claim you don't need to rally the OL at all etc), then it means that zergs are outmoving and outmicroing the other races quite hard, because they have thesame (or even slightly more) (E)APM, which they have to spend somewhere. --> if it is not macro, then it means it's army movement and micro. Wrong. Zerg's got high EAPM because they build units in waves - and then there are tremendous spikes in APM. The rest is just constant production of Drones from newly spawned larvas. it doesn't matter for average APM, that there are spikes. That's what average means. Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:
Second, about Overlord rally - you shouldn't add rally overlord as another action because you can move a whole group of Overlords into selected location (so it is one action for, for example 20 overlords, not 20 actions for each overlord). Also you dont have to move each Overlord - you can send some of them in strategic points, the rest often stays in rally point or is moved under one of the bases. Yeah, I also added the rally worker back, while a lot of times you don't want to do that, because you just queue up another depot with the same worker etc etc. It was not about being superexact and showing the best methode. It was about showing that the methodes take about the same APM for Zerg and Terran. If you think it is even harder for Terran, than the strengthens my arguement. Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:
Third. It is not only about number of clicks, but also about how much precise mouse moves and mouse clicks player has to do - and it is obvious that precise mouse clicks are much more demanding and slower then key clicks - it is fundament of whole idea of hotkeys. In this regard Zerg is MUCH MUCH LESS demanding then Terran. Proof or it isn't true.
Of course spikes matters for averange APM because, guess what, they inflate average APM.
Wanna proof of mouse precision required during macro as Terran?
Here you go - building depots, walling off, switching buildings on add-ons, construction of buildings, fortifying of expansions and building simcity
Zerg on the contrary needs mouse precision for macro only during larva inject.
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Ghost snipe would ideally:
50 energy, 10dmg (+45 vs psionic, +40 vs biological). Range increased to 12. Upon casting, the ghost starts taking aim and after a 6 second period shoots. If the target leaves vision or range, the spell is canceled.
that sounds terrible. 6 seconds is a very very long time.
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On July 22 2012 00:48 Embir wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 00:34 Big J wrote:On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:On July 22 2012 00:16 Big J wrote:On July 22 2012 00:11 Embir wrote:On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:
building a supply depot:
select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously
building an overlord:
select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously
It is just not true - you dont have to rally overlord during its building stage,because you have rally points set up for all units beforehand. Method that you showed is not effective at all and only inflates APM that are needed to build Overlord. In fact terran needs 5 actions to build Supply, Zerg needs 3 and also it doesnt requires precise mouse clicks for Zerg. What is more Zerg is the only race in the game that can assign units to groups during production process. Also, Zerg builds much less buildings during entire game, and their bases functions as unit production facilities. It is race with the easiest macro by far. You cant stockpile larva injects, but from mechanical standpoint it is very easy macro mechanic. I added the rally click because it doesn't matter wether you rally them after they finish or while you build them. You are going to do it once and therefore it is goin in as one action. If you claim that Zerg has fewer clicks macrowise (like if you claim you don't need to rally the OL at all etc), then it means that zergs are outmoving and outmicroing the other races quite hard, because they have thesame (or even slightly more) (E)APM, which they have to spend somewhere. --> if it is not macro, then it means it's army movement and micro. Wrong. Zerg's got high EAPM because they build units in waves - and then there are tremendous spikes in APM. The rest is just constant production of Drones from newly spawned larvas. it doesn't matter for average APM, that there are spikes. That's what average means. On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:
Second, about Overlord rally - you shouldn't add rally overlord as another action because you can move a whole group of Overlords into selected location (so it is one action for, for example 20 overlords, not 20 actions for each overlord). Also you dont have to move each Overlord - you can send some of them in strategic points, the rest often stays in rally point or is moved under one of the bases. Yeah, I also added the rally worker back, while a lot of times you don't want to do that, because you just queue up another depot with the same worker etc etc. It was not about being superexact and showing the best methode. It was about showing that the methodes take about the same APM for Zerg and Terran. If you think it is even harder for Terran, than the strengthens my arguement. On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:
Third. It is not only about number of clicks, but also about how much precise mouse moves and mouse clicks player has to do - and it is obvious that precise mouse clicks are much more demanding and slower then key clicks - it is fundament of whole idea of hotkeys. In this regard Zerg is MUCH MUCH LESS demanding then Terran. Proof or it isn't true. Of course spikes matters for averange APM because, guess what, they inflate average APM. Wanna proof of mouse precision required during macro as Terran? Here you go - building depots, walling off, switching buildings on add-ons, construction of buildings, fortifying of expansions and building simcity Zerg on the contrary needs mouse precision for macro only during larva inject.
Zerg build all their units in a spike and afterwards does not build units at all. Terran builds their units (a little more, because you still essentially queue a round and then don't do any unit production) constantly. You can also make units not in waves as zerg, but you will still have basically the same amount of actions per unit built.
Ergo it doesn't matter. You still need the same amount of clicks.
Just giving a short random list of some things is not a proof. Get some statistics about overall mouse precision needed for Zerg and for Terran.
Or do it the hard way. Pick a variety of games and document/count each and every action and look wether it was "precise" or not.
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Why are you comparing two completely different races to proof uou picked the hard one!? Switch or stop it, because this discussion leads nowhere!
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On July 22 2012 00:15 sibs wrote:
I've observed that Terran and Zerg master's players have way more APM than Protoss players, the difference is really very large, occasionally you hit a high-APM protoss but its rare, its not uncommon for Protoss to play at sub 80EAPM, however its very very rare to get a Terran/Zerg lower than 80. Any theories?
It's the Warpgates fault, some what. If Protoss would use pure Gateway they would function like Terran's production facilities with constant production and the que-system. With Warpgate you press W and spawn units with your mouse 2 times per minute (unless you are slacking with the production or cutting for tech etc) which only register APM for a few sec (I'm not even sure if warping in units is regging apm?). Add that you often ain't that active with your robo and the Protoss playstyle with the slow, defensive deathball. I'm not even sure if chronoboost is regging apm, anyone here knows?
The fastest Protoss in SC2 I've seen is PartinG, when it comes to EAPM. I think he has a bit over 300 in apm and close to 200 eapm. What he does is that he hotkey each Nexus to it's own hotkey and tab between each one of them for probe production and chronoboost, which gives him alot more useful actions than every other Protoss that has every nexus on one hotkey. Other than that he must have some sick mouse speed clicking.
I don't know, it just feels really slow and wierd playing Protoss in SC2. I have no idea how to really put my apm to use on that race. With Zerg I have around 290~300 apm and 173 eapm. a bit slower with Terran when it comes to the overall apm but still 173 eapm on avarage and with Protoss I can have like 120 eapm and if I spam like crazy I can get over 250 apm but it's almost just spam. O_o
I also think Protoss would be so much fun if Gateway production got back into the game, with buffed GW units. That way it would be more fun to macro and you could play a completely other style and break away from the passive deathball and really put your apm and mechanics to use like you can with Terran.
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EPT
