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On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else.
"Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning"
Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro
Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's,
Fact is, every race has all of it..
Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z.
BUT all of them require all of it.
Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is.
And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game.
Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too.
And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players.
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On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players.
Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player.
All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game.
Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult.
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I do not really think that zerg macro is any harder then especially terran macro. While you have to inject and spread creep at certain times there is not accuracy required for those tasks. Building supply can be done via hotkeys. Building units can be done via hotkeys. The only timings you need to know are timings for tech buildings, expansions and gas. Everything terran has to do, apart from actually building units, has to be done via accurate clicks. Some things require multiple clicks with a few seconds between them (add-on switching). If you don't place buildings or mules at the right timings your army will also be smaller at a later point in time because you either not have the money, supply or production. Apart from one or two macro hatches the zerg does not have to worry about production scaling at all.
Over all i do not think that zerg has more forced "base watching time" then terran. For every inject terran has to place a building, switch an add-on or call down a mule.
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On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:
Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult.
To be honest, I don't think zergs really comprehend what micro is and to what degree they are NOT microing their units. To them, a moving your broodlords and spamming t with your infestors over large clumps of units is like the highest form of micro. And if, god forbid, some player even transfuses, he immediately becomes the master of micro among zergs.
Yes, try that and microing marines vs banes. They just can't do that. They can't even comprehend that terran, when it comes to battle, is about 5 times more mechanically demanding than zerg.
But that is not the big problem. While terrans do have to micro harder than zerg (and whoever denies that is just plain mad), zerg does have to macro harder, not missing injects etc (not caring much about building placement as terran, but ok, I will let it slide) and pumping every unit from the same building and spreading creep with the same unit that does the inject. I can admit it is harder than what terran has for him. But that is not the problem.
The problem is: terran has to do damage to zerg in early game to be even for late game. If terran doesn't do damage, he is behind. Queen nowadays stops almost any early game options, and I believe lings and banes + infestors are a damn good counter to almost anything terran can throw at zerg in mid game. So basically there is no way for terran to do economic damage to the zerg. That is unfair and should be nerfed to the ground.
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On July 21 2012 23:01 submarine wrote:
I do not really think that zerg macro is any harder then especially terran macro. While you have to inject and spread creep at certain times there is not accuracy required for those tasks. Building supply can be done via hotkeys. Building units can be done via hotkeys. The only timings you need to know are timings for tech buildings, expansions and gas. Everything terran has to do, apart from actually building units, has to be done via accurate clicks. Some things require multiple clicks with a few seconds between them (add-on switching). If you don't place buildings or mules at the right timings your army will also be smaller at a later point in time because you either not have the money, supply or production. Apart from one or two macro hatches the zerg does not have to worry about production scaling at all.
Over all i do not think that zerg has more forced "base watching time" then terran. For every inject terran has to place a building, switch an add-on or call down a mule.
I hate resorting to this, but please don't play up the MULE while downplaying Larva Inject. The latter, while not especially hard, is easily more of a clunky and unforgiving bitch than MULEs could ever be. (Also half the cooldown) Also remember that production scaling with Z means more Queens to keep track of. Again, not much, but not just outright easier than T. Just different.
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On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult.
Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click.
If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898
spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg.
But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive...
Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof.
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On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult. Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click. If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg. But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive... Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof.
I don't care if you buy it. It's a fact. Macro for Zerg happens at fixed intervals since Inject/Tumors have a cooldown. This makes it mindless and means it doesn't interrupt the decision making process. Kiting/Forcefielding etc require reaction time and stop you from doing anything else for an extended period of time. Larva Inject doesn't. If you truly need to do an engagement, you can delay Larva Inject. You can't delay Forcefielding/Kiting or you die straight up.
I don't care about EAPM because Spreading Creep and Injecting and Overlord rallying takes a lot of effective clicks, despite being mindless. I guarantee that Terrans aren't building 10 Supply Depots at a time, so the APM increase from making one is tiny.
Basically, you have no argument at all. The fact is that the hardest parts of this game are decision making and microing an army. Zerg only needs to do one at a very high level. Protoss and Terran need to do both. No amount of APM-intensive macro makes up for that. Period.
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On July 21 2012 23:08 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:01 submarine wrote:
I do not really think that zerg macro is any harder then especially terran macro. While you have to inject and spread creep at certain times there is not accuracy required for those tasks. Building supply can be done via hotkeys. Building units can be done via hotkeys. The only timings you need to know are timings for tech buildings, expansions and gas. Everything terran has to do, apart from actually building units, has to be done via accurate clicks. Some things require multiple clicks with a few seconds between them (add-on switching). If you don't place buildings or mules at the right timings your army will also be smaller at a later point in time because you either not have the money, supply or production. Apart from one or two macro hatches the zerg does not have to worry about production scaling at all.
Over all i do not think that zerg has more forced "base watching time" then terran. For every inject terran has to place a building, switch an add-on or call down a mule. I hate resorting to this, but please don't play up the MULE while downplaying Larva Inject. The latter, while not especially hard, is easily more of a clunky and unforgiving bitch than MULEs could ever be. (Also half the cooldown) Also remember that production scaling with Z means more Queens to keep track of. Again, not much, but not just outright easier than T. Just different.
I did not say that zerg or terran macro was easier. Both require a lot of attention. You can not just look at inject and mule if you compare the macro requirements of the two races. Terran macro is so much more then just calling down mules. Thats all i said in the quoted post. I am just tired of that "zerg is the macro race" and "zerg macro is so much harder". That statements are just wrong.
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On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:
it would still be as demanding as those stats clearly proof.
Nope.
The stats show 35% win rate in TvZ. The stats show 20% terrans in ladder as compared to 40% zergs.
That are the stats that matter.
+ Show Spoiler +
Look at gstl. Keen beats a fxo zerg (whale). What does fxo coach send next...Zerg. And it is the RIGHT decision.
And this trend has been in gstl for a while. Even if you are zerg-sniper, they will send a zerg against you. And he will win.
Cause zerg is imbalanced at the current state. Which, I will reiterate again, is because the fact the queen can serve as macro booster, map awareness tool, a beefy mobile anti air unit, a beefy anti ground siege tank that can kill 2.5 hellions (which are battle units, by the way). Queen costs no gas, and is a nice investment preparing zerg for late game and giving him safety. That way, against terran, zerg can skip other units for 5-7 minutes, which can put them on a 30+ worker lead. Safely. That is not balanced, nor is hard.
Must be nerfed. Don't be in denial.
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On July 21 2012 23:25 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:08 Coffee Zombie wrote:On July 21 2012 23:01 submarine wrote:
I do not really think that zerg macro is any harder then especially terran macro. While you have to inject and spread creep at certain times there is not accuracy required for those tasks. Building supply can be done via hotkeys. Building units can be done via hotkeys. The only timings you need to know are timings for tech buildings, expansions and gas. Everything terran has to do, apart from actually building units, has to be done via accurate clicks. Some things require multiple clicks with a few seconds between them (add-on switching). If you don't place buildings or mules at the right timings your army will also be smaller at a later point in time because you either not have the money, supply or production. Apart from one or two macro hatches the zerg does not have to worry about production scaling at all.
Over all i do not think that zerg has more forced "base watching time" then terran. For every inject terran has to place a building, switch an add-on or call down a mule. I hate resorting to this, but please don't play up the MULE while downplaying Larva Inject. The latter, while not especially hard, is easily more of a clunky and unforgiving bitch than MULEs could ever be. (Also half the cooldown) Also remember that production scaling with Z means more Queens to keep track of. Again, not much, but not just outright easier than T. Just different. I did not say that zerg or terran macro was easier. Both require a lot of attention. You can not just look at inject and mule if you compare the macro requirements of the two races. Terran macro is so much more then just calling down mules. Thats all i said in the quoted post. I am just tired of that "zerg is the macro race" and "zerg macro is so much harder". That statements are just wrong.
Macro race, hell yes it is. I mean, Zerg macro is good to the point of brokenness ffs 
So much harder? No, not really. Inject is just an unforgiving bitch is all, but other factions have their own annoyances and a tad tighter early game build orders to worry about. So agreed I guess? ^_^
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On July 21 2012 23:24 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult. Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click. If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg. But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive... Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof. I don't care if you buy it. It's a fact. Macro for Zerg happens at fixed intervals since Inject/Tumors have a cooldown. This makes it mindless and means it doesn't interrupt the decision making process. Kiting/Forcefielding etc require reaction time and stop you from doing anything else for an extended period of time. Larva Inject doesn't. If you truly need to do an engagement, you can delay Larva Inject. You can't delay Forcefielding/Kiting or you die straight up. I don't care about EAPM because Spreading Creep and Injecting and Overlord rallying takes a lot of effective clicks, despite being mindless. I guarantee that Terrans aren't building 10 Supply Depots at a time, so the APM increase from making one is tiny. Basically, you have no argument at all.
just saying random stuff doesn't help you.
You claim zergs build Xoverlords at once, Terrans build each supply depot one by one. Hm... guess who has spent more APM on repetitive macro then.
Spoiler alert: after you did the math (correctly), it's going to be the Terran.
building a supply depot:
select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously
building an overlord:
select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously
supply cap for Terran = 200; supply depot gives 8
supply cap for Zerg = 200; overlord gives 8
--> in the end a Terran has spent more APM on depots, than a Zerg on Overlords, but it's basically very similar.
Don't want to claim anyone's macro is harder. But your argument that building OLs takes more EAPM as building depots is just wrong. SO WRONG!
But yeah, please tell me more about the incredible, incredible skill of P/Ts that have to fight brainless zerg players, with easy mechanics that every T/P would be capable of, but they are just waaaaaaaaaaay to rich to switch race and earn a few hundred thousand bucks with zerg.
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I'm amazed this thread isn't closed by now. It certainly hasn't helped with stopping balance discussions from being spread into other threads (most noteably, every damn LR thread)
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On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:24 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult. Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click. If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg. But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive... Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof. I don't care if you buy it. It's a fact. Macro for Zerg happens at fixed intervals since Inject/Tumors have a cooldown. This makes it mindless and means it doesn't interrupt the decision making process. Kiting/Forcefielding etc require reaction time and stop you from doing anything else for an extended period of time. Larva Inject doesn't. If you truly need to do an engagement, you can delay Larva Inject. You can't delay Forcefielding/Kiting or you die straight up. I don't care about EAPM because Spreading Creep and Injecting and Overlord rallying takes a lot of effective clicks, despite being mindless. I guarantee that Terrans aren't building 10 Supply Depots at a time, so the APM increase from making one is tiny. Basically, you have no argument at all. just saying random stuff doesn't help you. You claim zergs build Xoverlords at once, Terrans build each supply depot one by one. Hm... guess who has spent more APM on repetitive macro then. Spoiler alert: after you did the math (correctly), it's going to be the Terran. building a supply depot: select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously building an overlord: select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously supply cap for Terran = 200; supply depot gives 8 supply cap for Zerg = 200; overlord gives 8 --> in the end a Terran has spent more APM on depots, than a Zerg on Overlords, but it's basically very similar. Don't want to claim anyone's macro is harder. But your argument that building OLs takes more EAPM as building depots is just wrong. SO WRONG! But yeah, please tell me more about the incredible, incredible skill of P/Ts that have to fight brainless zerg players, with easy mechanics that every T/P would be capable of, but they are just waaaaaaaaaaay to rich to switch race and earn a few hundred thousand bucks with zerg.
Yeah, I'll take this post as an admission of defeat. Thanks for playing.
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On July 21 2012 23:43 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 23:24 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult. Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click. If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg. But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive... Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof. I don't care if you buy it. It's a fact. Macro for Zerg happens at fixed intervals since Inject/Tumors have a cooldown. This makes it mindless and means it doesn't interrupt the decision making process. Kiting/Forcefielding etc require reaction time and stop you from doing anything else for an extended period of time. Larva Inject doesn't. If you truly need to do an engagement, you can delay Larva Inject. You can't delay Forcefielding/Kiting or you die straight up. I don't care about EAPM because Spreading Creep and Injecting and Overlord rallying takes a lot of effective clicks, despite being mindless. I guarantee that Terrans aren't building 10 Supply Depots at a time, so the APM increase from making one is tiny. Basically, you have no argument at all. just saying random stuff doesn't help you. You claim zergs build Xoverlords at once, Terrans build each supply depot one by one. Hm... guess who has spent more APM on repetitive macro then. Spoiler alert: after you did the math (correctly), it's going to be the Terran. building a supply depot: select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously building an overlord: select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously supply cap for Terran = 200; supply depot gives 8 supply cap for Zerg = 200; overlord gives 8 --> in the end a Terran has spent more APM on depots, than a Zerg on Overlords, but it's basically very similar. Don't want to claim anyone's macro is harder. But your argument that building OLs takes more EAPM as building depots is just wrong. SO WRONG! But yeah, please tell me more about the incredible, incredible skill of P/Ts that have to fight brainless zerg players, with easy mechanics that every T/P would be capable of, but they are just waaaaaaaaaaay to rich to switch race and earn a few hundred thousand bucks with zerg. Yeah, I'll take this post as an admission of defeat. Thanks for playing.
Out of arguments? 
But I know, it's unfair if I bring up stats that show that overall zergs are doing as much stuff as T/Ps and then it's unfair that your "supply depots take less APM than Overlords" doesn't hold, just because you want it to hold.
Maybe if you want it really really badly, it will come true!
Really unfair, argueing based upon stats and numbers!
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On July 21 2012 23:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:43 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 23:24 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult. Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click. If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg. But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive... Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof. I don't care if you buy it. It's a fact. Macro for Zerg happens at fixed intervals since Inject/Tumors have a cooldown. This makes it mindless and means it doesn't interrupt the decision making process. Kiting/Forcefielding etc require reaction time and stop you from doing anything else for an extended period of time. Larva Inject doesn't. If you truly need to do an engagement, you can delay Larva Inject. You can't delay Forcefielding/Kiting or you die straight up. I don't care about EAPM because Spreading Creep and Injecting and Overlord rallying takes a lot of effective clicks, despite being mindless. I guarantee that Terrans aren't building 10 Supply Depots at a time, so the APM increase from making one is tiny. Basically, you have no argument at all. just saying random stuff doesn't help you. You claim zergs build Xoverlords at once, Terrans build each supply depot one by one. Hm... guess who has spent more APM on repetitive macro then. Spoiler alert: after you did the math (correctly), it's going to be the Terran. building a supply depot: select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously building an overlord: select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously supply cap for Terran = 200; supply depot gives 8 supply cap for Zerg = 200; overlord gives 8 --> in the end a Terran has spent more APM on depots, than a Zerg on Overlords, but it's basically very similar. Don't want to claim anyone's macro is harder. But your argument that building OLs takes more EAPM as building depots is just wrong. SO WRONG! But yeah, please tell me more about the incredible, incredible skill of P/Ts that have to fight brainless zerg players, with easy mechanics that every T/P would be capable of, but they are just waaaaaaaaaaay to rich to switch race and earn a few hundred thousand bucks with zerg. Yeah, I'll take this post as an admission of defeat. Thanks for playing. Out of arguments? But I know, it's unfair if I bring up stats that show that overall zergs are doing as much stuff as T/Ps and then it's unfair that your "supply depots take less APM than Overlords" doesn't hold, just because you want it to hold. Maybe if you want it really really badly, it will come true! Really unfair, argueing based upon stats and numbers!
You don't actually read my posts, so that's why I'm not arguing with you. Besides, your point is ridiculous and everyone can see that. This discussion has nothing to do with EAPM. It has to do with whether or not Zerg's macro being APM-intensive accounts for their engagement micro being simplistic. I argue that it doesn't, you ignore the question entirely.
So, again, thanks for playing.
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This is a nice quote by John Carmack.
"At its best, entertainment is going to be a subjective thing that can't win for everyone, while at worst, a particular game just becomes a random symbol for petty tribal behavior."
I'll just leave this right here ^_^
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On July 21 2012 23:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 23:48 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 23:43 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 23:37 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 23:24 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 23:19 Big J wrote:On July 21 2012 22:53 Shiori wrote:On July 21 2012 22:46 Mephtral wrote:On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else. "Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning" Terran players often act like they're the only ones that has to micro Protoss players often act like they got most unforgiving micro because of FF's, Fact is, every race has all of it.. Micro is more important for terran, forcefields are extremely unforgiving if you mess up, and positioning is more important with Z. BUT all of them require all of it. Zerg macro is repetitive, so is terran macro... add on production more often is the only difference, and that's actually not a huge thing when you consider how much time in game it actually is. And before you say "changing addons" it's not very often that happens either, a few times each game. Protoss not being as repetitive, i can give you that, they have to warp in at different places and have to look at the place they're warpin in too. And when they compliment stephanos micro, it's usually because he moves around small squads of his units, while positioning the rest of his army, and focus fire the units he needs to, he focus fires 2-3 sentries with highest energy with small parts of his army. he is incredibly fast, even compared to top terran and protoss players. Terran and Protoss players are the only ones who need to/have the potential for gosu micro. While Stephano moving around small squads is definitely impressive, it's only impressive compared to other Zerg players. Every Terran player at a top level knows how to do this, and so does every Protoss player. All macro is repetitive, which is why it's not a good measure of skill to say someone is really good at macro. That's what leads people to say Zerg is easier at the highest level: once you have your macro perfected, everything else is just like playing an easier version of P/T, since the engagements require so much less APM and preciseness to pull off. Positioning is not more important for Zerg than for anyone else. You cannot win PvZ or PvT or TvP or TvZ without positioning properly. I'd actually argue that the positional battles in PvT are the hardest in the entire game. Stephano may be fast, sure, but focus firing and microing small squads of units are things that literally every top T/P player does. Impressive micro is watching MKP or Puzzle or MC play, not watching a Zerg focus fire an Immortal with Roaches, because that requires a couple of shift-right-clicks. Just because something is very effective doesn't mean it's especially difficult. Sry, I don't buy this shit. You say macro is reptetitive and easy and put it as if it is a nonfactor. Guess what kiting is? click click click. Guess what what creating a (nearly) perfect forcefieldwall is. click click click. If you actually want to discuss upon data, here is an article about APM and EAPM and it lists some nice stats. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898spoiler alert, the top 3 players in terms of EAPM are zerg. But I know what you are going to say: lot's of clicks for creep spreading and unit building and overlord rallying and army moving and nothing impressive... Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all, it would still mean (which I already don't believe in, seeing how toplevel zergs micro their ass off) that zergs are doing a fuckton of stuff and just because it is different stuff (again, I don't believe that but whatever, gonna crush that argument even if it is not true), it would still be as demanding as whatever T/P do meanwhile, as those stats clearly proof. I don't care if you buy it. It's a fact. Macro for Zerg happens at fixed intervals since Inject/Tumors have a cooldown. This makes it mindless and means it doesn't interrupt the decision making process. Kiting/Forcefielding etc require reaction time and stop you from doing anything else for an extended period of time. Larva Inject doesn't. If you truly need to do an engagement, you can delay Larva Inject. You can't delay Forcefielding/Kiting or you die straight up. I don't care about EAPM because Spreading Creep and Injecting and Overlord rallying takes a lot of effective clicks, despite being mindless. I guarantee that Terrans aren't building 10 Supply Depots at a time, so the APM increase from making one is tiny. Basically, you have no argument at all. just saying random stuff doesn't help you. You claim zergs build Xoverlords at once, Terrans build each supply depot one by one. Hm... guess who has spent more APM on repetitive macro then. Spoiler alert: after you did the math (correctly), it's going to be the Terran. building a supply depot: select worker, select build, select supply depot, put it on the ground, rally worker back - 5clicks for one depot; 2more per depot that is being placed simoltanously building an overlord: select hatchery, select larva, select overlord, rally overlord - 4clicks for one overlord; 2more per overlord that is being built simoltanously supply cap for Terran = 200; supply depot gives 8 supply cap for Zerg = 200; overlord gives 8 --> in the end a Terran has spent more APM on depots, than a Zerg on Overlords, but it's basically very similar. Don't want to claim anyone's macro is harder. But your argument that building OLs takes more EAPM as building depots is just wrong. SO WRONG! But yeah, please tell me more about the incredible, incredible skill of P/Ts that have to fight brainless zerg players, with easy mechanics that every T/P would be capable of, but they are just waaaaaaaaaaay to rich to switch race and earn a few hundred thousand bucks with zerg. Yeah, I'll take this post as an admission of defeat. Thanks for playing. Out of arguments? But I know, it's unfair if I bring up stats that show that overall zergs are doing as much stuff as T/Ps and then it's unfair that your "supply depots take less APM than Overlords" doesn't hold, just because you want it to hold. Maybe if you want it really really badly, it will come true! Really unfair, argueing based upon stats and numbers! You don't actually read my posts, so that's why I'm not arguing with you. Besides, your point is ridiculous and everyone can see that. This discussion has nothing to do with EAPM. It has to do with whether or not Zerg's macro being APM-intensive accounts for their engagement micro being simplistic. I argue that it doesn't, you ignore the question entirely. So, again, thanks for playing.
Well, apart from that I don't buy that shit either, because building depots, rallying scvs back, queuing SCVs and moving around with all that mobile Terran stuff isn't different at all...
(addendum, so that you get what I'm saying: but the overall (E)APM are the same, which means they also have to devote a similar amount of (E)APM to anything else they do like micro during engagements)
I already did comment it. Your one example of "OL vs Depot" doesn't hold. It's your argument, that overall APM or EAPM are not sufficient for machanical skill determination, so it's your job, to find those proofs that show
a) zergs macro takes signficantly more (E)APM
b) that repetetive mechanics don't cut too hard into everything else you are doing
Until now you have only claimed that and then didn't accept the most used measure to determine mechanics. So please come up with something better. Just claiming "Zerg only has to do easy macro stuff", without backup for the truth of the sentence and the truth of the easy part is not an argument.
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On July 21 2012 22:40 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 22:36 Chaggi wrote:
Basically what Shiori has said, but Zerg macro mechanics, while harder than Terran's and Protoss's (and you can make an argument that adding on stuff is just as/if not harder, etc) it's not really that hard. To put it better, it's not so hard to do - that it should provide such a huge benefit.
If you think injects are hard, then every race's macro mechanics are going to be hard. Yep. If I switched to Zerg today, the biggest thing that would stand between me and maintaining my current rank would be Injects. It's not that I lack he APM to do them, since I play quite fast, but that I'm not used to doing them and therefore don't have that rhythm. The engagements, decisions, and build orders seem to me very easy compared to the airtight things I need to do as Protoss.
The only reason I don't switch to zerg for good is cause I like micro too much.
Also cause my computer literally can't handle a 200/200 army of any race. Lagging at 12 minutes would suck hard.
And inject rhythm isn't really too hard to get used to IMO. Took me about 3-4 games before finding a good inject style to use.
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I don't see how having higher EAPM has anything to do with tougher macro. See the following 2 examples on making supply depot vs overlords
Zerg: Hotkey + s + vvvvv. You just created 5 overlords.
Terran: Hotkey home + select scvs and relocate mouse for building placement + b + s + aiming and placing 5 supply depots + q + scroll back to mineral line for queue scvs back to mining.
Not going to go into the mathematics, but if anything I have learned from UI design course is that mouse scroll and mouse aiming takes 2-3x the time compare to clicking a keyboard button. You will definitely end up much fewer APM making 5 supply depots compare to making 5 overlords
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EPT
