Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 303

On July 22 2012 00:15 sibs wrote:
I've observed that Terran and Zerg master's players have way more APM than Protoss players, the difference is really very large, occasionally you hit a high-APM protoss but its rare, its not uncommon for Protoss to play at sub 80EAPM, however its very very rare to get a Terran/Zerg lower than 80. Any theories?

On July 22 2012 00:29 Embir wrote:


Wrong. Zerg's got high EAPM because they build units in waves - and then there are tremendous spikes in APM.
The rest is just constant production of Drones from newly spawned larvas.

Second, about Overlord rally - you shouldn't add rally overlord as another action because you can move a whole group of Overlords into selected location (so it is one action for, for example 20 overlords, not 20 actions for each overlord). Also you dont have to move each Overlord - you can send some of them in strategic points, the rest often stays in rally point or is moved under one of the bases.

Third. It is not only about number of clicks, but also about how much precise mouse moves and mouse clicks player has to do - and it is obvious that precise mouse clicks are much more demanding and slower then key clicks - it is fundament of whole idea of hotkeys. In this regard Zerg is MUCH MUCH LESS demanding then Terran.

On July 21 2012 22:20 Shiori wrote:
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.

Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else.

On July 22 2012 00:11 Toastie.NL wrote:

To fix that, there's two things you can do:
- Strenghten Terran in the mid or lategame, so they can lock the Zerg economy at a certain level with a powerful push and get even in economy that way. This means, buffing Midgame so lategame occurs on even grounds, or buffing lategame so the disadvantage of Terran in the early/midgame is compensated for.
- Weaken Zerg in the early game so Terran is able to deal the damage and keep the economy of the Zerg in check,
.

On July 22 2012 01:10 monkybone wrote:


Terran macro is not only adding production facilities and making/switching add-ons, it's keeping every single one of the active at all times. This requires regular attention, and can't be done in waves like Zerg production. Terran macro is a lot different than Zerg macro.

On July 22 2012 00:15 sibs wrote:
I've observed that Terran and Zerg master's players have way more APM than Protoss players, the difference is really very large, occasionally you hit a high-APM protoss but its rare, its not uncommon for Protoss to play at sub 80EAPM, however its very very rare to get a Terran/Zerg lower than 80. Any theories?

On July 22 2012 00:19 Chaggi wrote:
I dunno, I watch my Protoss friends play and they seem to get by with decision making alone rather than speed, which could be harder or easier, whatever

On July 22 2012 02:11 sieksdekciw wrote:

Mehehe, what do you think

On July 22 2012 02:35 Mephtral wrote:
Every time a hatchery has 3+ larvaes, we lose a larvae every 15 seconds. , you need to keep them low too, constantly, otherwise you lose a ton of larvae compared to what you should have.

On July 22 2012 03:34 dvorakftw wrote:

Zerg's 15 second window to avoid losing a potential larvae compared to Terran's 1.5 second window during a Zerg attack for splitting units and target firing banes that can wipe out your entire army and cost you the entire game.

Yeah.

On July 22 2012 03:16 larse wrote:
The following are things that I wrote in this thread and else where and I compile them here.

Zerg OP: Facts, Arguments, & Solutions
I. Facts

Here are some simple statistical facts that show the Zerg domination since May 10th.

1. Two Terran Holocaust figures made by someone in the reddit:

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4706/sandiegostan.png
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg

Note:
Red means Zerg, Green is Protoss, and Blue is Terran.
All these tournaments happened after the patch 1.4.3.2.

2. There are the June winrate of TLPD which is the best Starcraft 2 database out here:

http://i.minus.com/ijF6GRNzqbJwh.png

What’s going on in that winrate chart? Here is the best explanation by Indigo: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6080900088

3. Global racial distribution from Bronze to Grandmaster:

http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

GSTL 2012 Season 2 All-Kills and Multiple Kills List: (I count the ones that have 3 or more than 3 kills in a row)

4. GSTL 2012 Season 2, the Zerg Festival
GSTL 2012 Season 2 All-Kills and Multiple Kills List: (I count the ones that have 3 or more than 3 kills in a row)
Zerg
Life (Zerg): All-kills
Symbol (Zerg): Reversed All-kills, All-kills a second time
Coca (Zerg): All-kills, 3-kills
LosirA (Zerg): 4-Kills
ByuL (Zerg): 4 kills
Sniper (Zerg): 4-kills, 3-kills
Moon (Zerg): 3-Kills
Shine (Zerg): 3-kills
Hyun (Zerg): 3-kills
Leenock (Zerg): 3-kills

Protoss
Puzzle (Protoss): 4-kills, 3-kills
Tassadar (Protoss): 4-kills
Creator (Protoss): 3-kills
JYP (Protoss): 3-kills

Terran
Sculp (Terran): 3-kills
GuMiho (Terran): 3-kills
Jjakji (Terran): 3-kills

GSTL 2012 Season 2, TvZ winrate = 36.4%
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=Z&season=0&leaguetype=50&leagueid=27063&gamever=0&mapid=0

5. Some interesting examples of the Zerg domination:

http://i.imgur.com/WL1rr.jpg
http://bildr.no/view/1224863
(The red highlight color means it’s Zerg)

It is important to note that there are no statistical data that show otherwise since May 10th.

The conclusion of Zerg domination is under serious debates in this forum, but in Teamliquid, it's quite a consensus now that Zerg dominated since May 10th and it's not because of the metagame change.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
II. Arguments

There are many many different arguments about why Zerg is OP or what parts of Zerg is OP. All of the different arguments can be categorized into two broad camps:

1. Zerg's macro mechanism is OP
2. Zerg's army strength (especially late-game) is OP

People in the first camp mostly points to injection and larvae being OP. Because of this superior macro mechanism, the People in this camp consider Zerg's economy and army production can grow faster than the other two races.

People in the second camp mostly points to the Broodlord and Infestor or the composition of them being OP. Some of them may say Baneling/Zerglings/Infestor/Ultra composition is OP, but most people go with Broodlord and Infestor. In addition, many people also point to the creep which powers up Zerg's army strength and vision even more.

It is important to note that saying Queen is OP is basically in line with the first camp, since the logic of Queen being OP is the same as saying that "queen is OP ----> can't do damage to zerg economy early ----> zerg's economy grows faster than other two races later". So, saying Queen OP is an indirect statement that Zerg's macro mechanism is OP.

This two camps is not necessarily contradictory. It can be that Zerg is OP in both macro mechanism or army strength.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
III. Solutions

Therefore, to address these two types of OPness, we must have different solutions.

To address the first type of OPness, the solutions can be

1. Revert the queen buff, so other two races can do economic damage early or Zerg has to use resources to make defense unit and structure ----> equal economy later on.

2. Nerf the Zerg's macro mechanism. Most people argue that reducing the larvae produced from injection by 1 is a good way. Or it can be increase the injected larvae build time.
----Injection (or Spawn Larvae) duration increased to 50, up from 40.
----Injection (or Spawn Larvae) now produced 3 larvaes, down from 4.

To address the second type of OPness, the solutions are more debatable but most people argue some sorts of nerfs to infestor, Broodlord, or creep.

1. Infestor Nerf:
The infestor nerfs should include one or more than one of the following nerfs:
----Fungal growth now has a projectile
----Instead of stun the unit, Fungal growth now slows down the movement speed of the unit to 10%.
----Infested Terran casting range reduced to 6, down from 9
----The HP of Infested Terran morphing egg reduced to 50, down from 100

Personally, I support the projectile of fungal growth. It's a modest nerf and it's good for micro for both sides which is extremely important to the game and spectator.

I also support the second nerf which is that fungal does not stun units but slow them down. The reason of this nerf is that Fungal can be seen as having higher damage than storm. First, you can't stack storm, which is also true to fungal. But second, you can move away from storm even you are hit, so you take maybe less than 40 damage, but with fungal, you always take 40 damage, so it's a guaranteed damage. And you will be chain fungaled again and again. So in practical situation, the damage of fungal is extremely high.

Also, fungal prevents micro which is one of the most important elements of the game. Why is that so? Here is the post that shows why fungal and some other spells prevent micro: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6079791633

2. Broodlord Nerf:
----Units that are not Light can step over broodlings. (Broodling's unit size decreases in order to be visually appropriate)

This nerf is specifically designed to contain the stopping power of the broodlings which is the only reason why Broodlord is so powerful. The power of Broodlord is simply its broodlings' stopping ability that prevent most units from closing distance. Plus fungal stun units, which makes it even harder to close distance to kill the Broodlord.

3. Creep Nerf:
The Creep nerfs should include one or more than one of the following nerfs:
----Creep tumor build time increased to 20, up from 15.
----Creep tumor's vision range decreased to 9, down from 11.
----Creep now ebbs 2 times faster than spreads.

It is important to note that not all of these nerfs should be applied simultaneously. If all of them are applied, then Zerg may very well be underpowered. There will be minimal nerf, modest nerf, and radical nerf. My suggestion is as the following:

Minimal nerf:
----Revert the queen buff

Modest nerf:
----Queen ground attack range decreased to 4, down from 5
----Fungal growth now has a projectile
----Creep tumor build time increased to 20, up from 15.

Radical nerf:
Radical nerfs can include all the aforementioned nerfs as well as nerfs to Zerg's macro mechanism. But I strongly oppose radical nerfs, since it will make Zerg underpowered and the game will be again imbalanced.

-----------------------------------

Again, I only support minimal or modest nerfs to Zerg, and I truly don't want to see Zerg being UP. But the game at the moment simply lacks balance to a very large degree, just like Terran domination in 2010 and 2011. Terran domination was a problem and it was not good. I didn't enjoy watching Terran kills Protoss and Zerg so easily back in 2010 and 2011, but that doesn't justify the problem of Zerg at the moment.

I think Blizzard is aware of the situation. Dustin Browder and David Kim in MLG interviews already said that they know the situationn (it was June, right?). They said in the interview that there are two major concerns of balance: first is the roach in ZvP, and the second is the queen buff in TvZ. The only reason I can think of that Blizzard hasn't do anything is that they are waiting for the 1.5 patch to finalize in other technical aspects (cuz it's a huge patch) and they are using this timeframe to observe more matches and see what is exactly wrong with the matchup at the moment.

On July 22 2012 03:22 monkybone wrote:


I didn't say zerg macro is easy, I'm saying it's different, which you agreed with. And yeah, Zerg does usually produce units in waves or batches. Almost always do we see zerg units being mass produced in an instant, and then a period of waiting. This happens all the time, not only in remaxing situations. You don't see a constant flow of Zerg units in the production tab, like you do with marine tank for example. You may have heard of production cycles. I'm a little surprised you called bullshit, that didn't make a whole lot of sense, so I'm not sure you actually read my post.

On July 22 2012 03:51 wcr.4fun wrote:


Protoss seems to be doing just fine when only looking at the tournament result link. Terrans are lacking.
Most of your solutions are ridiculous though. Reverting the queen change would be a step back to hellion contain for 10 minutes. I'm so looking forward to that! Your larvae nerves are WAY over the top. Zergs can barely hold these stupid all-ins from protoss with the current numbers , how will they ever hold them when it's nerfed to the ground?

You have a problem with instant remax? Nerf the amount of larvae that can be stacked on one hatchery instead of nerfing the amount of larvae per time frame.

Your infestor nerfs are way over the top as well. And changing from stun to a 90 percent slow isn't going to change anything at all. What are your units going to do with 10 percent of their original movement speed? Run away? No. Get in range of broodlords? No.

Projectile based is a reasonable nerf.

Broodlord nerf is just meh. So stalkers would suddenly be able to jump over broodlings as well. It isn't enough that they're one of the most versatile units in the game and have blink. Now they also need to jump over broodlings? lol.

I don't see other units playing a role in this. Since stuff like thors etc can still hit broodlords since their range is so long.

I've got no opinion on the creep nerfs.

My personal opinion is that terran needs to get stronger end game, no need to nerf zerg.

On July 22 2012 03:40 Mephtral wrote:


If you want to bitch and whine, dont do it while quoting my posts

There is a reason good terrans pre-split their army.
try it....

On July 22 2012 05:07 Shiori wrote:
Stephano showing that the safest response to Oz's creative, aggressive opening is to take a third base and play completely standard since Queen/Ling beats everything. Sigh. I guess Oz did "damage" by making Stephano not make Drones.