EPTOn July 22 2012 02:34 Charon1979 wrote:
While I agree 100% with you POV, this "asymetrical" design has to go.
That was the initial reason for the whole story of nerfs and buffs. Want to buff Terrans midgame for the purpose to lock Zs economy down? I bet money that terran will just go and develop a push which isnt aimed at the economy but for a quick kill. The problem here is: How to design pressure/push/mechanic so that it makes you even if you do it ok-ish, puts you slightly behind if you mess up or puts you opponent slightly behind if he messes up without creating a "no risk" push that ends the game if done properly/reacted poorly and doesnt matter if executed poorly.
I gladly give up all my "lategame advantages" if I can pressure a FFE toss so hard on one base that we are even in workercount, tech and army if i do it ok-ish, puts toss on 1 base with even worker count but slightly better tech/units if i mess up or kills him instantly if he reacts poorly.
Like a banelingbust which is not denied by 1 singe FF
While I agree 100% with you POV, this "asymetrical" design has to go.
That was the initial reason for the whole story of nerfs and buffs. Want to buff Terrans midgame for the purpose to lock Zs economy down? I bet money that terran will just go and develop a push which isnt aimed at the economy but for a quick kill. The problem here is: How to design pressure/push/mechanic so that it makes you even if you do it ok-ish, puts you slightly behind if you mess up or puts you opponent slightly behind if he messes up without creating a "no risk" push that ends the game if done properly/reacted poorly and doesnt matter if executed poorly.
I gladly give up all my "lategame advantages" if I can pressure a FFE toss so hard on one base that we are even in workercount, tech and army if i do it ok-ish, puts toss on 1 base with even worker count but slightly better tech/units if i mess up or kills him instantly if he reacts poorly.
Like a banelingbust which is not denied by 1 singe FF
I am happy you agree. I don't like it either, but this is the way we have to go.
On July 22 2012 03:16 larse wrote:
The following are things that I wrote in this thread and else where and I compile them here.
+ Show Spoiler +
The following are things that I wrote in this thread and else where and I compile them here.
+ Show Spoiler +
Zerg OP: Facts, Arguments, & Solutions
I. Facts
Here are some simple statistical facts that show the Zerg domination since May 10th.
1. Two Terran Holocaust figures made by someone in the reddit:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4706/sandiegostan.png
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg
Note:
Red means Zerg, Green is Protoss, and Blue is Terran.
All these tournaments happened after the patch 1.4.3.2.
2. There are the June winrate of TLPD which is the best Starcraft 2 database out here:
http://i.minus.com/ijF6GRNzqbJwh.png
What’s going on in that winrate chart? Here is the best explanation by Indigo: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6080900088
3. Global racial distribution from Bronze to Grandmaster:
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
GSTL 2012 Season 2 All-Kills and Multiple Kills List: (I count the ones that have 3 or more than 3 kills in a row)
4. GSTL 2012 Season 2, the Zerg Festival
GSTL 2012 Season 2 All-Kills and Multiple Kills List: (I count the ones that have 3 or more than 3 kills in a row)
Zerg
Life (Zerg): All-kills
Symbol (Zerg): Reversed All-kills, All-kills a second time
Coca (Zerg): All-kills, 3-kills
LosirA (Zerg): 4-Kills
ByuL (Zerg): 4 kills
Sniper (Zerg): 4-kills, 3-kills
Moon (Zerg): 3-Kills
Shine (Zerg): 3-kills
Hyun (Zerg): 3-kills
Leenock (Zerg): 3-kills
Protoss
Puzzle (Protoss): 4-kills, 3-kills
Tassadar (Protoss): 4-kills
Creator (Protoss): 3-kills
JYP (Protoss): 3-kills
Terran
Sculp (Terran): 3-kills
GuMiho (Terran): 3-kills
Jjakji (Terran): 3-kills
GSTL 2012 Season 2, TvZ winrate = 36.4%
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=Z&season=0&leaguetype=50&leagueid=27063&gamever=0&mapid=0
5. Some interesting examples of the Zerg domination:
http://i.imgur.com/WL1rr.jpg
http://bildr.no/view/1224863
(The red highlight color means it’s Zerg)
It is important to note that there are no statistical data that show otherwise since May 10th.
The conclusion of Zerg domination is under serious debates in this forum, but in Teamliquid, it's quite a consensus now that Zerg dominated since May 10th and it's not because of the metagame change.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
II. Arguments
There are many many different arguments about why Zerg is OP or what parts of Zerg is OP. All of the different arguments can be categorized into two broad camps:
1. Zerg's macro mechanism is OP
2. Zerg's army strength (especially late-game) is OP
People in the first camp mostly points to injection and larvae being OP. Because of this superior macro mechanism, the People in this camp consider Zerg's economy and army production can grow faster than the other two races.
People in the second camp mostly points to the Broodlord and Infestor or the composition of them being OP. Some of them may say Baneling/Zerglings/Infestor/Ultra composition is OP, but most people go with Broodlord and Infestor. In addition, many people also point to the creep which powers up Zerg's army strength and vision even more.
It is important to note that saying Queen is OP is basically in line with the first camp, since the logic of Queen being OP is the same as saying that "queen is OP ----> can't do damage to zerg economy early ----> zerg's economy grows faster than other two races later". So, saying Queen OP is an indirect statement that Zerg's macro mechanism is OP.
This two camps is not necessarily contradictory. It can be that Zerg is OP in both macro mechanism or army strength.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
III. Solutions
Therefore, to address these two types of OPness, we must have different solutions.
To address the first type of OPness, the solutions can be
1. Revert the queen buff, so other two races can do economic damage early or Zerg has to use resources to make defense unit and structure ----> equal economy later on.
2. Nerf the Zerg's macro mechanism. Most people argue that reducing the larvae produced from injection by 1 is a good way. Or it can be increase the injected larvae build time.
----Injection (or Spawn Larvae) duration increased to 50, up from 40.
----Injection (or Spawn Larvae) now produced 3 larvaes, down from 4.
To address the second type of OPness, the solutions are more debatable but most people argue some sorts of nerfs to infestor, Broodlord, or creep.
1. Infestor Nerf:
The infestor nerfs should include one or more than one of the following nerfs:
----Fungal growth now has a projectile
----Instead of stun the unit, Fungal growth now slows down the movement speed of the unit to 10%.
----Infested Terran casting range reduced to 6, down from 9
----The HP of Infested Terran morphing egg reduced to 50, down from 100
Personally, I support the projectile of fungal growth. It's a modest nerf and it's good for micro for both sides which is extremely important to the game and spectator.
I also support the second nerf which is that fungal does not stun units but slow them down. The reason of this nerf is that Fungal can be seen as having higher damage than storm. First, you can't stack storm, which is also true to fungal. But second, you can move away from storm even you are hit, so you take maybe less than 40 damage, but with fungal, you always take 40 damage, so it's a guaranteed damage. And you will be chain fungaled again and again. So in practical situation, the damage of fungal is extremely high.
Also, fungal prevents micro which is one of the most important elements of the game. Why is that so? Here is the post that shows why fungal and some other spells prevent micro: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6079791633
2. Broodlord Nerf:
----Units that are not Light can step over broodlings. (Broodling's unit size decreases in order to be visually appropriate)
This nerf is specifically designed to contain the stopping power of the broodlings which is the only reason why Broodlord is so powerful. The power of Broodlord is simply its broodlings' stopping ability that prevent most units from closing distance. Plus fungal stun units, which makes it even harder to close distance to kill the Broodlord.
3. Creep Nerf:
The Creep nerfs should include one or more than one of the following nerfs:
----Creep tumor build time increased to 20, up from 15.
----Creep tumor's vision range decreased to 9, down from 11.
----Creep now ebbs 2 times faster than spreads.
It is important to note that not all of these nerfs should be applied simultaneously. If all of them are applied, then Zerg may very well be underpowered. There will be minimal nerf, modest nerf, and radical nerf. My suggestion is as the following:
Minimal nerf:
----Revert the queen buff
Modest nerf:
----Queen ground attack range decreased to 4, down from 5
----Fungal growth now has a projectile
----Creep tumor build time increased to 20, up from 15.
Radical nerf:
Radical nerfs can include all the aforementioned nerfs as well as nerfs to Zerg's macro mechanism. But I strongly oppose radical nerfs, since it will make Zerg underpowered and the game will be again imbalanced.
-----------------------------------
Again, I only support minimal or modest nerfs to Zerg, and I truly don't want to see Zerg being UP. But the game at the moment simply lacks balance to a very large degree, just like Terran domination in 2010 and 2011. Terran domination was a problem and it was not good. I didn't enjoy watching Terran kills Protoss and Zerg so easily back in 2010 and 2011, but that doesn't justify the problem of Zerg at the moment.
I think Blizzard is aware of the situation. Dustin Browder and David Kim in MLG interviews already said that they know the situationn (it was June, right?). They said in the interview that there are two major concerns of balance: first is the roach in ZvP, and the second is the queen buff in TvZ. The only reason I can think of that Blizzard hasn't do anything is that they are waiting for the 1.5 patch to finalize in other technical aspects (cuz it's a huge patch) and they are using this timeframe to observe more matches and see what is exactly wrong with the matchup at the moment.
I. Facts
Here are some simple statistical facts that show the Zerg domination since May 10th.
1. Two Terran Holocaust figures made by someone in the reddit:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4706/sandiegostan.png
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg
Note:
Red means Zerg, Green is Protoss, and Blue is Terran.
All these tournaments happened after the patch 1.4.3.2.
2. There are the June winrate of TLPD which is the best Starcraft 2 database out here:
http://i.minus.com/ijF6GRNzqbJwh.png
What’s going on in that winrate chart? Here is the best explanation by Indigo: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6080900088
3. Global racial distribution from Bronze to Grandmaster:
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
GSTL 2012 Season 2 All-Kills and Multiple Kills List: (I count the ones that have 3 or more than 3 kills in a row)
4. GSTL 2012 Season 2, the Zerg Festival
GSTL 2012 Season 2 All-Kills and Multiple Kills List: (I count the ones that have 3 or more than 3 kills in a row)
Zerg
Life (Zerg): All-kills
Symbol (Zerg): Reversed All-kills, All-kills a second time
Coca (Zerg): All-kills, 3-kills
LosirA (Zerg): 4-Kills
ByuL (Zerg): 4 kills
Sniper (Zerg): 4-kills, 3-kills
Moon (Zerg): 3-Kills
Shine (Zerg): 3-kills
Hyun (Zerg): 3-kills
Leenock (Zerg): 3-kills
Protoss
Puzzle (Protoss): 4-kills, 3-kills
Tassadar (Protoss): 4-kills
Creator (Protoss): 3-kills
JYP (Protoss): 3-kills
Terran
Sculp (Terran): 3-kills
GuMiho (Terran): 3-kills
Jjakji (Terran): 3-kills
GSTL 2012 Season 2, TvZ winrate = 36.4%
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=Z&season=0&leaguetype=50&leagueid=27063&gamever=0&mapid=0
5. Some interesting examples of the Zerg domination:
http://i.imgur.com/WL1rr.jpg
http://bildr.no/view/1224863
(The red highlight color means it’s Zerg)
It is important to note that there are no statistical data that show otherwise since May 10th.
The conclusion of Zerg domination is under serious debates in this forum, but in Teamliquid, it's quite a consensus now that Zerg dominated since May 10th and it's not because of the metagame change.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
II. Arguments
There are many many different arguments about why Zerg is OP or what parts of Zerg is OP. All of the different arguments can be categorized into two broad camps:
1. Zerg's macro mechanism is OP
2. Zerg's army strength (especially late-game) is OP
People in the first camp mostly points to injection and larvae being OP. Because of this superior macro mechanism, the People in this camp consider Zerg's economy and army production can grow faster than the other two races.
People in the second camp mostly points to the Broodlord and Infestor or the composition of them being OP. Some of them may say Baneling/Zerglings/Infestor/Ultra composition is OP, but most people go with Broodlord and Infestor. In addition, many people also point to the creep which powers up Zerg's army strength and vision even more.
It is important to note that saying Queen is OP is basically in line with the first camp, since the logic of Queen being OP is the same as saying that "queen is OP ----> can't do damage to zerg economy early ----> zerg's economy grows faster than other two races later". So, saying Queen OP is an indirect statement that Zerg's macro mechanism is OP.
This two camps is not necessarily contradictory. It can be that Zerg is OP in both macro mechanism or army strength.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
III. Solutions
Therefore, to address these two types of OPness, we must have different solutions.
To address the first type of OPness, the solutions can be
1. Revert the queen buff, so other two races can do economic damage early or Zerg has to use resources to make defense unit and structure ----> equal economy later on.
2. Nerf the Zerg's macro mechanism. Most people argue that reducing the larvae produced from injection by 1 is a good way. Or it can be increase the injected larvae build time.
----Injection (or Spawn Larvae) duration increased to 50, up from 40.
----Injection (or Spawn Larvae) now produced 3 larvaes, down from 4.
To address the second type of OPness, the solutions are more debatable but most people argue some sorts of nerfs to infestor, Broodlord, or creep.
1. Infestor Nerf:
The infestor nerfs should include one or more than one of the following nerfs:
----Fungal growth now has a projectile
----Instead of stun the unit, Fungal growth now slows down the movement speed of the unit to 10%.
----Infested Terran casting range reduced to 6, down from 9
----The HP of Infested Terran morphing egg reduced to 50, down from 100
Personally, I support the projectile of fungal growth. It's a modest nerf and it's good for micro for both sides which is extremely important to the game and spectator.
I also support the second nerf which is that fungal does not stun units but slow them down. The reason of this nerf is that Fungal can be seen as having higher damage than storm. First, you can't stack storm, which is also true to fungal. But second, you can move away from storm even you are hit, so you take maybe less than 40 damage, but with fungal, you always take 40 damage, so it's a guaranteed damage. And you will be chain fungaled again and again. So in practical situation, the damage of fungal is extremely high.
Also, fungal prevents micro which is one of the most important elements of the game. Why is that so? Here is the post that shows why fungal and some other spells prevent micro: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6079791633
2. Broodlord Nerf:
----Units that are not Light can step over broodlings. (Broodling's unit size decreases in order to be visually appropriate)
This nerf is specifically designed to contain the stopping power of the broodlings which is the only reason why Broodlord is so powerful. The power of Broodlord is simply its broodlings' stopping ability that prevent most units from closing distance. Plus fungal stun units, which makes it even harder to close distance to kill the Broodlord.
3. Creep Nerf:
The Creep nerfs should include one or more than one of the following nerfs:
----Creep tumor build time increased to 20, up from 15.
----Creep tumor's vision range decreased to 9, down from 11.
----Creep now ebbs 2 times faster than spreads.
It is important to note that not all of these nerfs should be applied simultaneously. If all of them are applied, then Zerg may very well be underpowered. There will be minimal nerf, modest nerf, and radical nerf. My suggestion is as the following:
Minimal nerf:
----Revert the queen buff
Modest nerf:
----Queen ground attack range decreased to 4, down from 5
----Fungal growth now has a projectile
----Creep tumor build time increased to 20, up from 15.
Radical nerf:
Radical nerfs can include all the aforementioned nerfs as well as nerfs to Zerg's macro mechanism. But I strongly oppose radical nerfs, since it will make Zerg underpowered and the game will be again imbalanced.
-----------------------------------
Again, I only support minimal or modest nerfs to Zerg, and I truly don't want to see Zerg being UP. But the game at the moment simply lacks balance to a very large degree, just like Terran domination in 2010 and 2011. Terran domination was a problem and it was not good. I didn't enjoy watching Terran kills Protoss and Zerg so easily back in 2010 and 2011, but that doesn't justify the problem of Zerg at the moment.
I think Blizzard is aware of the situation. Dustin Browder and David Kim in MLG interviews already said that they know the situationn (it was June, right?). They said in the interview that there are two major concerns of balance: first is the roach in ZvP, and the second is the queen buff in TvZ. The only reason I can think of that Blizzard hasn't do anything is that they are waiting for the 1.5 patch to finalize in other technical aspects (cuz it's a huge patch) and they are using this timeframe to observe more matches and see what is exactly wrong with the matchup at the moment.
I love how much effort you put in this. I don't agree with quite a bit of it, but you actually made a lot of work on this. Did you read my post a bit before yours? I quoted a part of it on the top of this post.
Props to you for putting in the thought and effort.
My prefered changes:
>Fungal Growth is now a projectile - It should have the speed of around and about a stimmed marine. this seems like a decent speed.
>Queens Range reverted to 4 Range - Slightly better vs Hellions and Marines, but good Terran micro is still rewarded Damage changed from 4*2 to 8*1, to be stronger against 1 armor (and destructible rocks, lol).
>Hatcheries have a Larvae cap of 3+4, Lairs of 3+4+4, Hives of 3+4+4 - Zerg has to actually invest in a lategame larvae stack and get up to 5 macro hatches.
>Hunter Seeker Missile upgrade cost to 200/200/120 (min/gas/tim), spell cost to 100 (10 sec cooldown) range to 9, speed slightly increased. The new and powerful Lategame Terran Splash.
This might be to much to change at once, but I like the changes. 1 and 4 increase the demands of Zerg Micro, 2 allows Terran to micro again and makes it a slight bit more important, because the damage increased. The third forces Zerg to put more thought in their lategame remax styles as it becomes more expensive to have lots of Hatches running - might encourage more agressive Ultra/Bane/Ling/Infestor play, maybe with Nydus support, instead of the Spine wall wait till we get attacked - remax - kill style we see now.
And the last change, to the HSM, might be far to much, but I would like to see how that works out.
Kind Regards
