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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On July 22 2012 10:46 Toadvine wrote: I've just finished watching Taeja vs Losira g1, and your post literally has me in tears. Please explain I like to laugh too. | ||
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
For a protoss we try to get Mothership, Archon, Colossus, stalker. That alone costs a lot of gas and time to create, plus we have to wait for enough energy for the Vortex. Sometimes the other comp you will see is Sky toss aginst Late game zerg and I'm sure most people will agree that the Carrier is expensive and takes a long time similar to BC's. Since the game has launched Bio has always been the strongest comp and it has been used so long that I think it is hard for Terrans to try something different that they are not used too. I would say fine use Bio and try to get the most effiency you can out of them but set up your structures ahead of time so when you lose that army you can produce the T3 air units and whatever else you need to try and deal with it. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
Do you feel it is normal for a race to have lost 5k more units, lose 10k more (difference is 15k), remax and have a bank of 3000 minerals? Cause that is what happened in Losira vs Taeja. Gosh, so the terran played 15k more effectively, rolled an engagement next to zerg base, and then loses? Comeon, let's not kid ourselves. Taeja plays better throughout the whole tournament. Think about what a terran does. He scans ahead, sends some stimmed units forward, then inches his siege tanks back. Zerg just moves freely. As it comes down to an engagement, we clearly see that all zergs just a move and place fungals. That's it. No great secrets. A moving with all units but the blings, sticky storm with infestors. Nothing more. Terran: Siege, focus fire, stim split, split split split, focus fire with vikings, drop at two places at the same time. Cause that is what happened vs Losira. Losira still won. The game is clearly broken if winning costs that little effort from one side. Take Stephano vs Ryung. Ruying was totally and utterly more mechanically skilled. There were engagements which Stephano did that only a madman or a child with polio and mental deficiency could play out worse, like engaging 50 marines and 7 sieged siege tanks at a very small choke where most of the tanks were on the low ground. Stephano lost his whole army in front of his freaking base, yet he won. The game is so forgiving for such huge errors on the zerg side. Stephano was constantly missing drops, regardless of the fact he had a vision on the entire map. If this was a terran, it would be mostly a masters terran and certainly not a player capable of winning so many major leagues. Yet, as a Zerg, even with his beyond mediocre for a pro player mechanics (he admits it himself) Stephano is destroying code S terrans left and right. When winning requires so little effort from one side and requires so much effort from the other side, the game is broken. The only way to fix it would be to nerf zerg economy, in my opinion, as I have outlined in previous posts. So, now that we have agreed that nerfs are needed on zerg, and that zerg is clearly overpowered, let's try to discuss what exactly should be nerfed in that race. I am thinking of fungal and queens. | ||
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
On July 22 2012 10:54 Ziggitz wrote: Mechanics involves actually knowing what you're supposed to be doing. Banking thousands of gas you're never going to spend is bad mechanics. If you have 6 scv's mining gas you don't need for the roughly ten minutes it takes to bank that kind of gas, you could have expanded and mined more minerals for a bigger bio comp or actually spent on high quality units. Have you been watching the summer arena? Every TvZ set the Terran is banking 2000+ gas at least once. This is something every high level Terran is doing right now. Taeja just lost a game to Losira after banking 4000 fucking gas and he is considered an incredibly good TvZ player. Do you think perhaps if he had been able to max out and engage several minutes earlier by mining more minerals and less gas he might have won? Or perhaps he could have remaxed faster if he had 2 extra factories an extra starport and a few more barracks that he could have easily afforded and still have the bank to produce from them if he had had 3000 more minerals instead of gas. Yeah I'm going to point out that Terrans haven't mastered the basics of resource allocation late game because they haven't. OK, I finally chimed into this thread a few posts back (mentioned the really silly win Lorisa just had vs Taeja on entombed after sacrificing his maxed tier 3 army), and one of the things I was talking about is how zergs are trying for this argument that Terrans don't know how to play. Here above is what we need to curtail somehow. We have a bunch of average ladder zerg players that have the audacity to say that professional Terrans do not know the basics of how to play this game. Lets think about that for a second. Average players (see above, what I quoted), inexplicably stating that PRO TERRANS have no idea how to play. This is their argument. This is how they are trying to prove that zerg is perfectly balanced and it is simply the fact that Terran pro's are idiots and refuse to learn mechanics and learn proper unit comp. You know what I find incredibly ironic about this? In the early days of this game, it was a common thought process that balancing this game is really hard because of the Terran skill cap, and how *better skilled terran players* are yucking things up for the regular Terran players. But sure, lets just pretend that all those Terran players are trained chimps now. They are not playing for their own livelihood or anything like that. Good plan. Zerg is balanced. Sold. | ||
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:10 Iron_ wrote: Good plan. Zerg is balanced. Sold. Nobody is buying this. Everybody can clearly see that zerg is op. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:06 sieksdekciw wrote: Do you feel it is normal for a race to have lost 5k more units, lose 10k more (difference is 15k), remax and have a bank of 3000 minerals? Cause that is what happened in Losira vs Taeja. Gosh, so the terran played 15k more effectively, rolled an engagement next to zerg base, and then loses? Comeon, let's not kid ourselves. Taeja plays better throughout the whole tournament. Think about what a terran does. He scans ahead, sends some stimmed units forward, then inches his siege tanks back. Zerg just moves freely. As it comes down to an engagement, we clearly see that all zergs just a move and place fungals. That's it. No great secrets. A moving with all units but the blings, sticky storm with infestors. Nothing more. Terran: Siege, focus fire, stim split, split split split, focus fire with vikings, drop at two places at the same time. Cause that is what happened vs Losira. Losira still won. The game is clearly broken if winning costs that little effort from one side. Take Stephano vs Ryung. Ruying was totally and utterly more mechanically skilled. There were engagements which Stephano did that only a madman or a child with polio and mental deficiency could play out worse, like engaging 50 marines and 7 sieged siege tanks at a very small choke where most of the tanks were on the low ground. Stephano lost his whole army in front of his freaking base, yet he won. The game is so forgiving for such huge errors on the zerg side. Stephano was constantly missing drops, regardless of the fact he had a vision on the entire map. If this was a terran, it would be mostly a masters terran and certainly not a player capable of winning so many major leagues. Yet, as a Zerg, even with his beyond mediocre for a pro player mechanics (he admits it himself) Stephano is destroying code S terrans left and right. When winning requires so little effort from one side and requires so much effort from the other side, the game is broken. The only way to fix it would be to nerf zerg economy, in my opinion, as I have outlined in previous posts. So, now that we have agreed that nerfs are needed on zerg, and that zerg is clearly overpowered, let's try to discuss what exactly should be nerfed in that race. I am thinking of fungal and queens. Isn't that odd that the race that mines more resources and has less cost effective units can win while losing more resources worth of units? It was 30 minutes in when Taeja had banked 5k worth of resources. 4000 of it was gas because he did not manage his economy correctly. You'll notice that losira was mining more and keeping his money low. Perhaps if Taeja knew what his army cost and knew how many gas mining scv's he needed for the number of bases he had he would have maxed out several minutes early by cutting gas and using those scv's for minerals and the game would have swung entirely in his favor. Seriously it's because of shit like this that Zergs are not interested in the massive Terran bitchfest because Terrans seem to think a game where the Terran banks 4k gas and loses is a good example of imbalance. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:10 Iron_ wrote: OK, I finally chimed into this thread a few posts back (mentioned the really silly win Lorisa just had vs Taeja on entombed after sacrificing his maxed tier 3 army), and one of the things I was talking about is how zergs are trying for this argument that Terrans don't know how to play. Here above is what we need to curtail somehow. We have a bunch of average ladder zerg players that have the audacity to say that professional Terrans do not know the basics of how to play this game. Lets think about that for a second. Average players (see above, what I quoted), inexplicably stating that PRO TERRANS have no idea how to play. This is their argument. This is how they are trying to prove that zerg is perfectly balanced and it is simply the fact that Terran pro's are idiots and refuse to learn mechanics and learn proper unit comp. You know what I find incredibly ironic about this? In the early days of this game, it was a common thought process that balancing this game is really hard because of the Terran skill cap, and how *better skilled terran players* are yucking things up for the regular Terran players. But sure, lets just pretend that all those Terran players are trained chimps now. They are not playing for their own livelihood or anything like that. Good plan. Zerg is balanced. Sold. Are you fucking dense? What master plan did Taeja have banking 4k gas? Are you not sold on the basic premise that gathering resource you cannot spend is fucking stupid? Is it lost on you that there were SCV's mining gas that could have been mining usable minerals instead for a long fucking time? Did it occur to you that by watching a few replays it's incredibly easy to see where the gas bank starts to grow and figure out when to stop adding on more gas geysers in order to max out minutes faster than you can if you didn't waste all that mining time? I fucking give up on this thread. User was warned for this post | ||
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HobitSeducer
Sweden5 Posts
Problem: The mechanics for Zerg and Protoss translate well into the late-game. For Protoss the ability to warp-in gives the ability to instantly reinforce their army anywhere on the map, combine this with chrono boost and a Protoss player has an acceptable way of quickly converting their bank (early game advantage) into an army (late game advantage). The Zerg can pool larvae, combine this with the ability to build (almost) any unit from these larvae and a competent Zerg player has a great mechanic that translates their advantage in bases into an advantage in army. Don't get me wrong, an advantage in bases is always preferable - no matter which race you play - and yes, Terran can of course build more production buildings. My personal feeling is that there should be an easy mechanic that rewards a player with good economy. Good play should be rewarded and as I see it the mechanics in place for Zerg and Protoss accomplishes this by also extending well into the late game. Solution: Some new mechanic that kicks in at 200/200. My first idea was drop-pods but I would prefer it to be someting "unique" to Terran. My suggestion at this time is to give Terran the ability to pre-build. Basicly Terran production buildings would be able to produce even when the terran is maxed. The unit wouldn't emerge until there is enough supply for it but when the supply does get available it would emerge instantaneously. I have no idea how good or bad this mechanic would be and, yes, it is a variation on "warp-in" (any units, not any place). Hopefully it would at least feel different. This is just an idea, there are probably more creative solutions that would be more fun and fit better into the game. The important thing is not this specific solution but the problem. Side Effects: Terran will get a stronger late-game, I am quite honestly not qualified to speculate on whether it would be OP or UP. Edit: Changed the name from "over-cue" to "pre-build" because it made more sense. | ||
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:21 Ziggitz wrote: Are you fucking dense? What master plan did Taeja have banking 4k gas? Are you not sold on the basic premise that gathering resource you cannot spend is fucking stupid? Is it lost on you that there were SCV's mining gas that could have been mining usable minerals instead for a long fucking time? Did it occur to you that by watching a few replays it's incredibly easy to see where the gas bank starts to grow and figure out when to stop adding on more gas geysers in order to max out minutes faster than you can if you didn't waste all that mining time? I fucking give up on this thread. Dear average ladder zerg player who likes to call Terran pro's noobs who don't know how to play to justify his races current state of balance: 1) Once you have 16-20 SCVS on any one mineral patch, it is useless to put more on there because you gain no benefit, and it is *better to have extra gas than zero extra minerals*. His mineral patches were saturated. He could not gain extra bases because of ling runbys. I am fairly sure he is a tiny bit better than you and understands the game at least close to as well as you do (although I am not certain, I am quickly learning in this thread that average zerg ladder players are actually masters of Terran mechanics and intelligence). 2) In SC2, when a race is maxed, it banks minerals and gas because you can not spend it. (Although admittedly, I do not play zerg so I am not privy to some possible ways to spend thousands of minerals and gas on smart things while I am not allowed to build units, I will ask my local average zerg ladder player for advice on that). 3) Lorisa had plenty of minerals and gas banked also. What does this tell us? Clearly nothing, because as a zerg player his brain receptors fire at a higher rate than us trained chimp terrans, and he had a perfectly clear plan to spend all of that in a perfectly efficient manner. I am sorry I ever mentioned this. 4) Please think about what you are saying. Seriously, just read through your posts slowly and read them. You are calling out professional gamers and saying they do not understand the game. I have joked around a lot here, but please do think about that for a minute. It is like you saying Payton Manning sucks at football. It's just silly. | ||
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Torra
Norway469 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:21 Ziggitz wrote: Are you fucking dense? What master plan did Taeja have banking 4k gas? Are you not sold on the basic premise that gathering resource you cannot spend is fucking stupid? Is it lost on you that there were SCV's mining gas that could have been mining usable minerals instead for a long fucking time? Did it occur to you that by watching a few replays it's incredibly easy to see where the gas bank starts to grow and figure out when to stop adding on more gas geysers in order to max out minutes faster than you can if you didn't waste all that mining time? I fucking give up on this thread. 1. Having extra gas should be a good thing for every race. But terran doesn't have a good gas sink like protoss and zerg does. 2. Acquiring new bases is difficult in a lot of late game sitations. Therefore it's easier to mine gas in late game because they're usually still available at your safe bases when minerals are mined out. So when you do get a new base secured in late game, mules are gonna be the terrans biggest source of mineral income, those "6 scvs from every base that's mining gas" as you keep saying, doesn't actually make a huge difference. Only if you're adding extra gasses when you're past 3-4 bases, have a huge gas bank, is starved for minerals and not planning on going anything gas heavy in a whle, only then is it a mistake. | ||
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ordinarY
United States55 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:21 Ziggitz wrote: Are you fucking dense? What master plan did Taeja have banking 4k gas? Are you not sold on the basic premise that gathering resource you cannot spend is fucking stupid? Is it lost on you that there were SCV's mining gas that could have been mining usable minerals instead for a long fucking time? Did it occur to you that by watching a few replays it's incredibly easy to see where the gas bank starts to grow and figure out when to stop adding on more gas geysers in order to max out minutes faster than you can if you didn't waste all that mining time? I fucking give up on this thread. I'm not sure how 6 or even 12 extra SCV's on an already saturated mineral base are going to help him win a game. You do understand that once you have a saturated base, the more mining workers on that base actually decrease your average income because you're getting diminishing returns on patches right? You can build a CC and float it to another base, but taking bases in late game TvZ is pretty hard, but I guess you already knew that cause you're a mastermind who understands resource management better than a professional sc2 player. If you can't find bases to mine from, then you literally can't mine minerals. pretty simple concept. | ||
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734pot
Australia294 Posts
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the`postman
United States1643 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:33 Iron_ wrote: I find it funny you begin by calling someone an average player and yet you don't even know that it's 24 workers to fully saturate a mineral line.Dear average ladder zerg player who likes to call Terran pro's noobs who don't know how to play to justify his races current state of balance: 1) Once you have 16-20 SCVS on any one mineral patch, it is useless to put more on there because you gain no benefit, and it is *better to have extra gas than zero extra minerals*. His mineral patches were saturated. He could not gain extra bases because of ling runbys. I am fairly sure he is a tiny bit better than you and understands the game at least close to as well as you do (although I am not certain, I am quickly learning in this thread that average zerg ladder players are actually masters of Terran mechanics and intelligence). 2) In SC2, when a race is maxed, it banks minerals and gas because you can not spend it. (Although admittedly, I do not play zerg so I am not privy to some possible ways to spend thousands of minerals and gas on smart things while I am not allowed to build units, I will ask my local average zerg ladder player for advice on that). 3) Lorisa had plenty of minerals and gas banked also. What does this tell us? Clearly nothing, because as a zerg player his brain receptors fire at a higher rate than us trained chimp terrans, and he had a perfectly clear plan to spend all of that in a perfectly efficient manner. I am sorry I ever mentioned this. 4) Please think about what you are saying. Seriously, just read through your posts slowly and read them. You are calling out professional gamers and saying they do not understand the game. I have joked around a lot here, but please do think about that for a minute. It is like you saying Payton Manning sucks at football. It's just silly. | ||
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the`postman
United States1643 Posts
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HobitSeducer
Sweden5 Posts
I find it funny you begin by calling someone an average player and yet you don't even know that it's 24 workers to fully saturate a mineral line. AFAIK 24 isn't the optimum (though Blizz says so), it depends on the amount of close/distant patches. Usually it's either 20 or 22. | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On July 22 2012 11:33 Iron_ wrote: Dear average ladder zerg player who likes to call Terran pro's noobs who don't know how to play to justify his races current state of balance: 1) Once you have 16-20 SCVS on any one mineral patch, it is useless to put more on there because you gain no benefit, and it is *better to have extra gas than zero extra minerals*. His mineral patches were saturated. He could not gain extra bases because of ling runbys. I am fairly sure he is a tiny bit better than you and understands the game at least close to as well as you do (although I am not certain, I am quickly learning in this thread that average zerg ladder players are actually masters of Terran mechanics and intelligence). 2) In SC2, when a race is maxed, it banks minerals and gas because you can not spend it. (Although admittedly, I do not play zerg so I am not privy to some possible ways to spend thousands of minerals and gas on smart things while I am not allowed to build units, I will ask my local average zerg ladder player for advice on that). 3) Lorisa had plenty of minerals and gas banked also. What does this tell us? Clearly nothing, because as a zerg player his brain receptors fire at a higher rate than us trained chimp terrans, and he had a perfectly clear plan to spend all of that in a perfectly efficient manner. I am sorry I ever mentioned this. 4) Please think about what you are saying. Seriously, just read through your posts slowly and read them. You are calling out professional gamers and saying they do not understand the game. I have joked around a lot here, but please do think about that for a minute. It is like you saying Payton Manning sucks at football. It's just silly. Just one more post, I promise (who am i kidding). I didn't call professional Terrans noobs, I pointed out that they are all making the same mistake consistently. 1.) Bullshit. First of all, it's 16 for 100% worker efficiency 24 is maximum yield for a mineral line. "Because of ling runbys" is not a fucking excuse for not expanding. If I told you Zerg can't expand because of drops you'd telling to go fuck myself. We've seen time and again, especially on maps like entombed valley, there are plenty of places in the mineral line and wedged between minerals, the map edges, and supply depots that you can put bunkers that no number of lings can destroy because you deny all of the surface area. It is also not unreasonable to have a small number of hellions that can cover 2 or more far away bases and spot incoming harassment with sensor towers. Incase you're also not aware, Command Centers can transform into these things called planetary fortresses which completely nullify ling runbys and are incredibly effective in the late game when access to more minerals is more important than simply the same minerals faster. Also, note, unspendable gas is worse than zero extra minerals even if those were the options available(which they're not), no extra gas is better because you haven't wasted supply on scv's that are doing nothing for you. But even then, with that much gas banked you'd have to make the argument that two marines are better than a raven in order to make the argument(if you can call it that) to not invest in ravens because minus the cost of 2 tech labbed starports you are directly trading two marines for a raven because the only additional cost is the 200 gas and the energy and seeker missile upgrade. 2.) I imagine a lot of Pro level Terrans think like you do which is probably why they are doing so badly. When Zerg maxes out with a lot of its mid game army intact with way too many lings and mutas (or roaches against Protoss) it looks for smaller favorable engagements to trade off supply as efficiently as it can while suing the freed supply for T3 units and Infestors. When Protoss maxes, it throws down a ton of warp gates to remax very quickly after engaging. When Terrans max out, they sit in their base and do nothing while sending out drops to well defended bases, bank gas, and then use up that supply to rebuild the exact same units after doing no damage. Alternatively, they've maxed out on 60 - 80 marines(which by the way are the lowest resource to supply ratio units in the game just like lings and zealots) and then cry when they're obliterated by much higher cost armies. Terrans can easily use drops as they're approaching a maxed army to trade off some of their bio and medivacs to get more marauders, ravens, vikings, tanks, thors or basically anything that isn't a marine or worthless in the late late game. Alternatively they can engage the moment they max out since they have cost effective units and waiting for a higher econ player to bank resources when they can spend immediately after an engagement is a bad idea. If a positional battle is taking place where you cannot force the engagement you can throw down extra production facilities to be able to spend the bank you are building up in a reasonable amount of time, exactly like Protoss builds extra warp gates. You can make a case that in those cases Terran is not cost efficient enough to do well in those cases(But I'm not going to be interested if you're going to use games where the Terran banks 4k as examples). 3.) Losira banked half as much Taeja did and he could spend his resources unlike Taeja. Yeah that's a lot easier for Zergs to do because Zergs can always spend more gas and their larvae usages goes down late game. That doesn't invalidate the fact that Taeja didn't handle his economy properly and could have had a much better army or gotten the same army much faster. 4.) I guess we should just close this thread then since no one who has posted in it is qualified to comment in that case. (Psst. That includes you.) I'm not sure how 6 or even 12 extra SCV's on an already saturated mineral base are going to help him win a game. You do understand that once you have a saturated base, the more mining workers on that base actually decrease your average income because you're getting diminishing returns on patches right? You can build a CC and float it to another base, but taking bases in late game TvZ is pretty hard, but I guess you already knew that cause you're a mastermind who understands resource management better than a professional sc2 player. If you can't find bases to mine from, then you literally can't mine minerals. pretty simple concept. That argument does not hold water at all. If you have 6-12 scv's mining gas that you know you will never spend, then around the time you are taking your third base don't take the gas at it and instead of producing the extra scv's, build an orbital command that can mine from a saturated mineral field. Or simply don't build the additional scv's at all and keep the minerals and supply for something else. This may come as a surprise to you, but professional SC2 players aren't all geniuses. And as for taking extra bases being hard, yes you are correct, SC2 is hard game at the highest level. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
I see engagements where an entire army disappears in 5 seconds. WHAT. WHAT?? | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote: I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame. 4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact. | ||
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DougJDempsey
747 Posts
On July 22 2012 12:05 the`postman wrote: I find it funny you begin by calling someone an average player and yet you don't even know that it's 24 workers to fully saturate a mineral line. .... arent we all average players? do you really think just because your "good" you can be considered a progamer? you reply to valid points with a stupid sentence and "i find it funny"? | ||
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