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Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 307

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Pato
Profile Joined January 2004
Argentina67 Posts
July 22 2012 03:37 GMT
#6121
zerg good..
Im really concerned of why after numerous results blizzard didn't take action in this.
U can see they also ruined all terrans and make them impossible to qualify for every competive tournament around the map.
Its really dissapointing :/
Iron_
Profile Joined April 2010
United States389 Posts
July 22 2012 03:43 GMT
#6122
On July 22 2012 12:27 Ziggitz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.


4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact.


OK so you nitpicked my amount of scvs on minerals per base. Sorry, I went with optimal. Yes 24 is the max, 20 is much more efficient. My money says he had 24 on each, but we do not have the replay. No reason to talk about expanding because they were both on the same amount of bases (remember when it was only equal when zerg was up a full base?)

Anyway, you continue with this "Terran's don't know how to allocate resources and play lategame" argument. You now are saying that pro Terrans think the same as non pro Terrans. AND you just tried to pull out the awesome argument about how Terran should not build marines. You are now a troll, nice work.

Oh and Ziggy, go ahead into the unit tester and A move that same zerg army into a Terran army. See how you do as Terran. Try it once with 0 gas then try it again with 5000 gas. Still get annihilated by 50 pop right? Right.
Pinna
Profile Joined April 2011
Finland152 Posts
July 22 2012 03:43 GMT
#6123
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.

Transform that 4k gas to minerals. How many marines can you get with that? Well, it's nothing, it's not the reason why Taeja might have lost.
School..
padfoota
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Taiwan1571 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-22 04:00:10
July 22 2012 03:58 GMT
#6124
My only problem now is that I find placing terran buildings really hard sometimes...they take so much fucking space.

I cant join the above argument because I didnt watch it T_T.
Stop procrastinating
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-22 04:03:41
July 22 2012 04:03 GMT
#6125
On July 22 2012 12:43 Pinna wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.

Transform that 4k gas to minerals. How many marines can you get with that? Well, it's nothing, it's not the reason why Taeja might have lost.

And you think 3 SCVs here and there is going to make that 4000 minerals magically appear.

You Zergs seem to be having trouble understanding this, so I'll spell it out clearly.

There is nothing.

For Terran.

To spend all their gas on.

Taking lots of bases is very difficult for Terran. Getting more SCVs than you need to mine more than 3 at a time is a waste of supply. Terran is not Zerg. Nor is it Protoss. There is no gas sink spellcaster that balances out your income. Terran T3 isn't even good. Zerg/Protoss T3 is. There's not a whole hell of a lot out there to spend the gas on, and insisting that reassigning those 6-9 SCVs from refineries to mineral patches is going to result in some crazy upswing in income that makes it all better doesn't make it so.
Pinna
Profile Joined April 2011
Finland152 Posts
July 22 2012 04:18 GMT
#6126
On July 22 2012 13:03 forsooth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 12:43 Pinna wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.

Transform that 4k gas to minerals. How many marines can you get with that? Well, it's nothing, it's not the reason why Taeja might have lost.

And you think 3 SCVs here and there is going to make that 4000 minerals magically appear.

You Zergs seem to be having trouble understanding this, so I'll spell it out clearly.

There is nothing.

For Terran.

To spend all their gas on.

Taking lots of bases is very difficult for Terran. Getting more SCVs than you need to mine more than 3 at a time is a waste of supply. Terran is not Zerg. Nor is it Protoss. There is no gas sink spellcaster that balances out your income. Terran T3 isn't even good. Zerg/Protoss T3 is. There's not a whole hell of a lot out there to spend the gas on, and insisting that reassigning those 6-9 SCVs from refineries to mineral patches is going to result in some crazy upswing in income that makes it all better doesn't make it so.

No, it's you terrans who have a problem understanding.
When terrans expand, they ALWAYS take the extractors. ALWAYS. Why do they do this? They might even be floating gas already, but they still take them. Thats 75 minerals lost, plus the opportunity-cost or whatever the fuck you terrans call it when you scan instead of mule. Also, the gas-mining scv's take up supply, which really does nothing. It is even worse than having some of your army miss-rallied in your main, because those scv's don't even have any changes to do anything. Lets say lategame terran has 4 gasses too much mining. Thats 12 supply, which could otherwise used to make 12 marines. Thats a whole production-cycle of barracks in lategame.

The thing what you terrans are implying, that 12 marines would not make any difference. Or that, the Terrans can just take the gases anyways because floating resources is not bad. Do you even know how retarded that sounds? If a Zerg would leave a game against terran with a bank of 4k gas/minerals he would be called. He would be called horribly at macro. Why is it ok for Terrans to float that much?

Lategame Zerg army is incredibly gas-heavy. Thats why you see Zerg, when taking new expansions in lategame, only saturating the gases. If they would do the same as Terrans, they would saturate the minerals also. They don't do this because they don't need the fucking minerals.
School..
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-22 04:28:07
July 22 2012 04:26 GMT
#6127
On July 22 2012 12:43 Iron_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 12:27 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.


4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact.


OK so you nitpicked my amount of scvs on minerals per base. Sorry, I went with optimal. Yes 24 is the max, 20 is much more efficient. My money says he had 24 on each, but we do not have the replay. No reason to talk about expanding because they were both on the same amount of bases (remember when it was only equal when zerg was up a full base?)

Anyway, you continue with this "Terran's don't know how to allocate resources and play lategame" argument. You now are saying that pro Terrans think the same as non pro Terrans. AND you just tried to pull out the awesome argument about how Terran should not build marines. You are now a troll, nice work.


Learn to fucking read, I've already stated the fucking obvious that if even if you do have 24 scv's on each mineral line then taking gas you would never spend on 3-4 geysers is 9-12 scv's doing nothing for you. That could be 9-12 marines, or earlier production. Even if you couldn't hold another expansion, you could build 1 OC drop 1 mule and then build a second in base OC and be able to mine with 2 extra mules that actually could mine minerals for you when oversaturated. Either way there is no justification for investing in refineries and scv's that will net you fuck all.

Oh and Ziggy, go ahead into the unit tester and A move that same zerg army into a Terran army. See how you do as Terran. Try it once with 0 gas then try it again with 5000 gas. Still get annihilated by 50 pop right? Right.


And you call me a troll. funny.
forsooth
Profile Joined February 2011
United States3648 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-22 04:45:02
July 22 2012 04:33 GMT
#6128
Terrans rarely take gas at any base beyond their third unless there's a particular need for it. You land your CC, drop mules, maybe transfer some SCVs depending on timing, but that's pretty much it. However, there's still a need to have that 3 base gas going for quite a while because of all the infrastructure and upgrading you have to do. Gas only becomes pointless to mine beyond like 20 minutes, and even then you never know if you're going to have to something absurd like do a mass air transition. It's a simple case of it being better to have something and not need it than need something and not have it. 6-12 supply tied up in SCVs that could be 6-12 marines when you're dealing with maxed army fights isn't exactly a huge deal. Is it nice to have a handful of extra marines? Sure, but if that's the line between winning and losing a fight you're pretty well screwed already because you won't have enough out when the next maxed army hits you. Not having gas you might need when the whole map is purple and you can't hold any of the distant expansions you try to take, on the other hand, is very very bad.
StooPidMonkey
Profile Joined July 2012
77 Posts
July 22 2012 04:46 GMT
#6129
On July 22 2012 13:26 Ziggitz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 12:43 Iron_ wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:27 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.


4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact.


OK so you nitpicked my amount of scvs on minerals per base. Sorry, I went with optimal. Yes 24 is the max, 20 is much more efficient. My money says he had 24 on each, but we do not have the replay. No reason to talk about expanding because they were both on the same amount of bases (remember when it was only equal when zerg was up a full base?)

Anyway, you continue with this "Terran's don't know how to allocate resources and play lategame" argument. You now are saying that pro Terrans think the same as non pro Terrans. AND you just tried to pull out the awesome argument about how Terran should not build marines. You are now a troll, nice work.


Learn to fucking read, I've already stated the fucking obvious that if even if you do have 24 scv's on each mineral line then taking gas you would never spend on 3-4 geysers is 9-12 scv's doing nothing for you. That could be 9-12 marines, or earlier production. Even if you couldn't hold another expansion, you could build 1 OC drop 1 mule and then build a second in base OC and be able to mine with 2 extra mules that actually could mine minerals for you when oversaturated. Either way there is no justification for investing in refineries and scv's that will net you fuck all.

Show nested quote +
Oh and Ziggy, go ahead into the unit tester and A move that same zerg army into a Terran army. See how you do as Terran. Try it once with 0 gas then try it again with 5000 gas. Still get annihilated by 50 pop right? Right.


And you call me a troll. funny.


9-12 marines instead of scvs! Damn! It's fucking genius! It totally fucking fixed terran's late tvz problem! Is this comment from the fucking piece who said won't comment anymore then fucked himself?
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
July 22 2012 04:50 GMT
#6130
On July 22 2012 13:46 StooPidMonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 13:26 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:43 Iron_ wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:27 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.


4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact.


OK so you nitpicked my amount of scvs on minerals per base. Sorry, I went with optimal. Yes 24 is the max, 20 is much more efficient. My money says he had 24 on each, but we do not have the replay. No reason to talk about expanding because they were both on the same amount of bases (remember when it was only equal when zerg was up a full base?)

Anyway, you continue with this "Terran's don't know how to allocate resources and play lategame" argument. You now are saying that pro Terrans think the same as non pro Terrans. AND you just tried to pull out the awesome argument about how Terran should not build marines. You are now a troll, nice work.


Learn to fucking read, I've already stated the fucking obvious that if even if you do have 24 scv's on each mineral line then taking gas you would never spend on 3-4 geysers is 9-12 scv's doing nothing for you. That could be 9-12 marines, or earlier production. Even if you couldn't hold another expansion, you could build 1 OC drop 1 mule and then build a second in base OC and be able to mine with 2 extra mules that actually could mine minerals for you when oversaturated. Either way there is no justification for investing in refineries and scv's that will net you fuck all.

Oh and Ziggy, go ahead into the unit tester and A move that same zerg army into a Terran army. See how you do as Terran. Try it once with 0 gas then try it again with 5000 gas. Still get annihilated by 50 pop right? Right.


And you call me a troll. funny.


9-12 marines instead of scvs! Damn! It's fucking genius! It totally fucking fixed terran's late tvz problem! Is this comment from the fucking piece who said won't comment anymore then fucked himself?


Do you ever read more than 2 sentences into posts in response to yours? And what's with the sock puppet account?
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-22 04:56:41
July 22 2012 04:54 GMT
#6131
Why are people arguing about resource management when it's hopeless for a Terran to even try and match the production capabilities of the larvae mechanic? Trading bits of your army, as a Terran, is not favorable for the Terran past a certain point, and so both sides will start putting resources in the bank eventually. So all this lategame bullshit about banking gas instead of minerals is retarded because it's going to happen anyways. And unless you're Jesus, you can't turn gas into minerals.

The fact is that Terrans need to start trading with something more expensive, but that period of time to transition towards a higher-tech army, say, battlecruisers, is too long for the Terrans to do without sacrificing something extremely critical and the timing in-game is way too small to do it anyways. Plus, you're trading units that are time-inefficient because of the larvae mechanic.

And then the theory counter to this would be that zergs would just overmake corruptors, kill the BC's, make broodlords, and we're back at square one. Take any Terran tech path, and the counter is always something the zerg "over makes" in order to get back to some broodlord/infestor/ultra/whatever composition they want. And there is absolutely nothing capable of stopping the zerg from over producing units.

Hence, terrans are sort of in a safety rut where experimenting is basically futile and they are just trying to outplay the zerg before they get comfortable. Blaming this on "well they have a lot of gas" is retarded and pointing the finger at the wrong culprit. There aren't any new and reliable timings that have been discovered as of yet, so until then, Zerg is going to have a generally easier time in ZvT.
im deaf
StooPidMonkey
Profile Joined July 2012
77 Posts
July 22 2012 05:05 GMT
#6132
On July 22 2012 13:50 Ziggitz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 13:46 StooPidMonkey wrote:
On July 22 2012 13:26 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:43 Iron_ wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:27 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.


4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact.


OK so you nitpicked my amount of scvs on minerals per base. Sorry, I went with optimal. Yes 24 is the max, 20 is much more efficient. My money says he had 24 on each, but we do not have the replay. No reason to talk about expanding because they were both on the same amount of bases (remember when it was only equal when zerg was up a full base?)

Anyway, you continue with this "Terran's don't know how to allocate resources and play lategame" argument. You now are saying that pro Terrans think the same as non pro Terrans. AND you just tried to pull out the awesome argument about how Terran should not build marines. You are now a troll, nice work.


Learn to fucking read, I've already stated the fucking obvious that if even if you do have 24 scv's on each mineral line then taking gas you would never spend on 3-4 geysers is 9-12 scv's doing nothing for you. That could be 9-12 marines, or earlier production. Even if you couldn't hold another expansion, you could build 1 OC drop 1 mule and then build a second in base OC and be able to mine with 2 extra mules that actually could mine minerals for you when oversaturated. Either way there is no justification for investing in refineries and scv's that will net you fuck all.

Oh and Ziggy, go ahead into the unit tester and A move that same zerg army into a Terran army. See how you do as Terran. Try it once with 0 gas then try it again with 5000 gas. Still get annihilated by 50 pop right? Right.


And you call me a troll. funny.


9-12 marines instead of scvs! Damn! It's fucking genius! It totally fucking fixed terran's late tvz problem! Is this comment from the fucking piece who said won't comment anymore then fucked himself?


Do you ever read more than 2 sentences into posts in response to yours? And what's with the sock puppet account?

Sadly, I read more than 2 sentences from yours that's why after having been learning/taking from the community for 3 months I decided to register to give back in this very unfortunate way. When most guys are questioning your logic, you did right at first: suggested to close the topic and swelled never comment again. Oh,boy! you see now you are fucking yourself again. Haven't learn anything from your redneck hillbilly cousin? Stay where you belong, in this case, larva I guess.

User was warned for this post
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
July 22 2012 05:17 GMT
#6133
On July 22 2012 14:05 StooPidMonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 13:50 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 13:46 StooPidMonkey wrote:
On July 22 2012 13:26 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:43 Iron_ wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:27 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.


4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact.


OK so you nitpicked my amount of scvs on minerals per base. Sorry, I went with optimal. Yes 24 is the max, 20 is much more efficient. My money says he had 24 on each, but we do not have the replay. No reason to talk about expanding because they were both on the same amount of bases (remember when it was only equal when zerg was up a full base?)

Anyway, you continue with this "Terran's don't know how to allocate resources and play lategame" argument. You now are saying that pro Terrans think the same as non pro Terrans. AND you just tried to pull out the awesome argument about how Terran should not build marines. You are now a troll, nice work.


Learn to fucking read, I've already stated the fucking obvious that if even if you do have 24 scv's on each mineral line then taking gas you would never spend on 3-4 geysers is 9-12 scv's doing nothing for you. That could be 9-12 marines, or earlier production. Even if you couldn't hold another expansion, you could build 1 OC drop 1 mule and then build a second in base OC and be able to mine with 2 extra mules that actually could mine minerals for you when oversaturated. Either way there is no justification for investing in refineries and scv's that will net you fuck all.

Oh and Ziggy, go ahead into the unit tester and A move that same zerg army into a Terran army. See how you do as Terran. Try it once with 0 gas then try it again with 5000 gas. Still get annihilated by 50 pop right? Right.


And you call me a troll. funny.


9-12 marines instead of scvs! Damn! It's fucking genius! It totally fucking fixed terran's late tvz problem! Is this comment from the fucking piece who said won't comment anymore then fucked himself?


Do you ever read more than 2 sentences into posts in response to yours? And what's with the sock puppet account?

Sadly, I read more than 2 sentences from yours that's why after having been learning/taking from the community for 3 months I decided to register to give back in this very unfortunate way. When most guys are questioning your logic, you did right at first: suggested to close the topic and swelled never comment again. Oh,boy! you see now you are fucking yourself again. Haven't learn anything from your redneck hillbilly cousin? Stay where you belong, in this case, larva I guess.


So glad you could add such substance to the discussion.
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
July 22 2012 05:19 GMT
#6134
On July 22 2012 13:54 imBLIND wrote:
Why are people arguing about resource management when it's hopeless for a Terran to even try and match the production capabilities of the larvae mechanic? Trading bits of your army, as a Terran, is not favorable for the Terran past a certain point, and so both sides will start putting resources in the bank eventually. So all this lategame bullshit about banking gas instead of minerals is retarded because it's going to happen anyways. And unless you're Jesus, you can't turn gas into minerals.

The fact is that Terrans need to start trading with something more expensive, but that period of time to transition towards a higher-tech army, say, battlecruisers, is too long for the Terrans to do without sacrificing something extremely critical and the timing in-game is way too small to do it anyways. Plus, you're trading units that are time-inefficient because of the larvae mechanic.

And then the theory counter to this would be that zergs would just overmake corruptors, kill the BC's, make broodlords, and we're back at square one. Take any Terran tech path, and the counter is always something the zerg "over makes" in order to get back to some broodlord/infestor/ultra/whatever composition they want. And there is absolutely nothing capable of stopping the zerg from over producing units.

Hence, terrans are sort of in a safety rut where experimenting is basically futile and they are just trying to outplay the zerg before they get comfortable. Blaming this on "well they have a lot of gas" is retarded and pointing the finger at the wrong culprit. There aren't any new and reliable timings that have been discovered as of yet, so until then, Zerg is going to have a generally easier time in ZvT.


Because people feel like that if they address points where pros make a mistake in a game, they can justify why a pro lost rather than see how strong / imba zerg is.
JustPlay
Profile Joined September 2010
United States211 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-22 05:54:21
July 22 2012 05:40 GMT
#6135
What if:

Only active creep tumors give vision. The no longer active tumors just give creep.


Instead of just rushing creep across the map with a bunch of queens you'd have to think about where to place your active tumors (like overlords), and if you did just spread them across the map then getting your active tumors killed is a big deal because you don't know whether your opponent is knocking out creep or not unless you have map control.

Perhaps a lot more minor than the type of balance discussion most people have, but it's just a fun what-if type thing. Fighting creep feels entirely pointless with the current ZvT openers. Every time a terran scans and tries to kill creep I feel like I'm winning. On a lot of maps dropping is not even viable now because of creep spread.

edit: vvv I like that idea more than this one.
-orb-
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States5770 Posts
July 22 2012 05:53 GMT
#6136
On July 22 2012 14:40 JustPlay wrote:
What if:

Only active creep tumors give vision. The no longer active tumors just give creep.


Instead of just rushing creep across the map with a bunch of queens you'd have to think about where to place your active tumors (like overlords), and if you did just spread them across the map then getting your active tumors killed is a big deal because you don't know whether your opponent is knocking out creep or not unless you have map control.

Perhaps a lot more minor than the type of balance discussion most people have, but it's just a fun what-if type thing. Fighting creep feels entirely pointless with the current ZvT openers. Every time a terran scans and tries to kill creep I feel like I'm winning. On a lot of maps dropping is not even viable now because of creep spread.


If you're looking for a creep nerf I think just not allowing tumors to reproduce at all would be a good solution.

People already make so many queens pro zergs would have no problem spreading creep all the way across the map, but it would slow it down and make it harder for medium-high level players that aren't top-level.
'life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery'
how sad that sc2 has no shield battery :(
Lagcraft
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States146 Posts
July 22 2012 05:54 GMT
#6137
On July 22 2012 11:25 HobitSeducer wrote:
Racial mechanics does not give Terrans enough reward for having alot of bases / alot of income
Problem: The mechanics for Zerg and Protoss translate well into the late-game. For Protoss the ability to warp-in gives the ability to instantly reinforce their army anywhere on the map, combine this with chrono boost and a Protoss player has an acceptable way of quickly converting their bank (early game advantage) into an army (late game advantage). The Zerg can pool larvae, combine this with the ability to build (almost) any unit from these larvae and a competent Zerg player has a great mechanic that translates their advantage in bases into an advantage in army.

Don't get me wrong, an advantage in bases is always preferable - no matter which race you play - and yes, Terran can of course build more production buildings. My personal feeling is that there should be an easy mechanic that rewards a player with good economy. Good play should be rewarded and as I see it the mechanics in place for Zerg and Protoss accomplishes this by also extending well into the late game.

Solution: Some new mechanic that kicks in at 200/200. My first idea was drop-pods but I would prefer it to be someting "unique" to Terran. My suggestion at this time is to give Terran the ability to pre-build. Basicly Terran production buildings would be able to produce even when the terran is maxed. The unit wouldn't emerge until there is enough supply for it but when the supply does get available it would emerge instantaneously.

I have no idea how good or bad this mechanic would be and, yes, it is a variation on "warp-in" (any units, not any place). Hopefully it would at least feel different. This is just an idea, there are probably more creative solutions that would be more fun and fit better into the game. The important thing is not this specific solution but the problem.

Side Effects: Terran will get a stronger late-game, I am quite honestly not qualified to speculate on whether it would be OP or UP.

Edit: Changed the name from "over-cue" to "pre-build" because it made more sense.



Well. Let's get back to the post at hand, because it's pointless to argue with people like Ziggitz. By refusing to acknowledge a problem with the overall structure of the game, people like him "stagnate the evolution of the game", as said by OP. Gas banking is not the problem. It's an imperfection, just like the way that toss and zerg both bank way too many minerals in the late game. Improper macro and micro mechanics are always going to be around. You can't be perfect.

Anyway, this idea I do believe has some viability. It would definitely need to be tested. This kind of buff reminds me of a post I saw on this site somewhere. The poster's belief was that instead of nerfing something that caused an advantage, instead buff everything else so that everything has that advantage. This type of development would make the game much more interesting than, say, getting rid of larva / warpgates to make it more of a fair playing field.

Some may say that then people could make tons of starports and pre-build tons of battlecruisers or something. But honestly, protoss can do the same by making tons of warpgates and zerg can do that by stacking tons of larva.

The only real problem with this idea would be getting the overall community, as well as blizzard, to see the logic in it.
YyapSsap
Profile Joined September 2010
New Zealand1511 Posts
July 22 2012 06:05 GMT
#6138
Or couldn't they bring in the upgrade to merge tech/reactor into one addon like the campaign?
StooPidMonkey
Profile Joined July 2012
77 Posts
July 22 2012 06:27 GMT
#6139
On July 22 2012 14:17 Ziggitz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2012 14:05 StooPidMonkey wrote:
On July 22 2012 13:50 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 13:46 StooPidMonkey wrote:
On July 22 2012 13:26 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:43 Iron_ wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:27 Ziggitz wrote:
On July 22 2012 12:26 Shiori wrote:
I actually can't believe people are trying to debate that the different between Taeja winning and losing is taking guys off gas in the lategame.


4k unspendable resource gathered over ten minutes. I'm debating that being 4k resources down in army from where you could have been probably had a pretty fucking huge impact.


OK so you nitpicked my amount of scvs on minerals per base. Sorry, I went with optimal. Yes 24 is the max, 20 is much more efficient. My money says he had 24 on each, but we do not have the replay. No reason to talk about expanding because they were both on the same amount of bases (remember when it was only equal when zerg was up a full base?)

Anyway, you continue with this "Terran's don't know how to allocate resources and play lategame" argument. You now are saying that pro Terrans think the same as non pro Terrans. AND you just tried to pull out the awesome argument about how Terran should not build marines. You are now a troll, nice work.


Learn to fucking read, I've already stated the fucking obvious that if even if you do have 24 scv's on each mineral line then taking gas you would never spend on 3-4 geysers is 9-12 scv's doing nothing for you. That could be 9-12 marines, or earlier production. Even if you couldn't hold another expansion, you could build 1 OC drop 1 mule and then build a second in base OC and be able to mine with 2 extra mules that actually could mine minerals for you when oversaturated. Either way there is no justification for investing in refineries and scv's that will net you fuck all.

Oh and Ziggy, go ahead into the unit tester and A move that same zerg army into a Terran army. See how you do as Terran. Try it once with 0 gas then try it again with 5000 gas. Still get annihilated by 50 pop right? Right.


And you call me a troll. funny.


9-12 marines instead of scvs! Damn! It's fucking genius! It totally fucking fixed terran's late tvz problem! Is this comment from the fucking piece who said won't comment anymore then fucked himself?


Do you ever read more than 2 sentences into posts in response to yours? And what's with the sock puppet account?

Sadly, I read more than 2 sentences from yours that's why after having been learning/taking from the community for 3 months I decided to register to give back in this very unfortunate way. When most guys are questioning your logic, you did right at first: suggested to close the topic and swelled never comment again. Oh,boy! you see now you are fucking yourself again. Haven't learn anything from your redneck hillbilly cousin? Stay where you belong, in this case, larva I guess.


So glad you could add such substance to the discussion.

I apologize for the personal insult when I was out of mind.
The substance based on my understanding of this game is:
terran reaches its prime after 3rd oc: 200 3/3 marines + tanks complemented by some vikings or marauders in 2 late tvz scenarios, in rare case with a few thors. The mineral/gas ratio of this combo is approx 3 full saturated mines with 1 and a half gas after upgrades finished. It can beat any pre-hive combo(old muta style or infestor), even stand a chance against hive tech zerg during the 1st big engagement with pro micro skill. The problem of terran mechanism: extra expansion benefits terran for sure, but that army hardly get strengthened after 3rd bases. Because marines play key role in the army, terran will bank gas after 3rd oc.
Zerg's story is completely different: more bases means more larvas, more gas means switching from bl to ultra in a blink of an eye. After zerg survives to hive-tech when it can engage cost-effectively, 3 fully saturated base can bank minerals;6-8gas can accumulate its gas reserve, those mineral/gas /larva reserve strengthen its army in the basketball way: just like NBA's playoffs, its all about the depth on bench. In this case, terran is like a rich team with 5 all-stars and 7 college players. You can buy Kobe, you can have James or KD, but under the rule you are stuck with 7 kids.
Aveng3r
Profile Joined February 2012
United States2411 Posts
July 22 2012 06:34 GMT
#6140
I honestly cant believe that this thread is still open

User was warned for this post
I carve marble busts of assassinated world leaders - PM for a quote
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