|
On July 21 2012 20:32 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well  ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro. Not to mention that a zerg needs more APM to manage their macro than a terran or toss could even dream off.
False. Using Orbital energy or chronoing is just as "hard" as injecting. The only difference is that Zerg macro is simplified and all comes from one building. It also comes with a better economy by default (in practice).
This means that Zerg macro is the mechanically the same to execute while being more simple and giving more benefits.
|
On July 21 2012 20:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:32 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro. Not to mention that a zerg needs more APM to manage their macro than a terran or toss could even dream off. False. Using Orbital energy or chronoing is just as "hard" as injecting. The only difference is that Zerg macro is simplified and all comes from one building. It also comes with a better economy by default (in practice). This means that Zerg macro is the mechanically the same to execute while being more simple and giving more benefits.
Not really, not only you can stockpile orbitals and throw several mule/chrono at the same time, but the need for Z to say 1 base ahead means they have to manage a much bigger economy
|
On July 21 2012 20:24 Notfragile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:14 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 20:11 Notfragile wrote:On July 21 2012 20:02 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case. I don't need any help supporting my case, everyone already knows zerg is OP except for you apparently. Please read the statement you made several times. Then find the part that it is bad and not an argument. Then delete your comment and stop posting on this thread. + Show Spoiler + You haven't read the past few pages have you? No, the guy is clearly in denial. Just... don't express yourself that way. It makes you look... dumb. As for the actual discussion, from a spectator point of view: Terran needs slightly better late game. The queen buff managed to get zergs to the late game more consistently. But there, the terran loses if on equal ground, most of the time. So... -A small radius splash on viking attacks to be able to take down corrupter clouds, upgradeable on tech labs and being somewhat expensive so that it does not shut down early muta play -Partially revert the ghost nerf. Not that bullshit that 20 ghosts with siege support annihilated army after army of zerg T3, but snipe being (for example) 35dmg might help. -Make ravens more accessible, make corvid reactor baseline so the terran has time to transition before the blord/corrupter cloud reaches his base. Some changes that would not affect the TvP lategame but help substantially the TvZ one. The solution is not to revert the queen buff so that terran all-ins more often. The solution is to give an actual late game option to the terran. Slightly weaker so there is still need for harassment but not so much that terran has to kill 40 drones to stand a chance.
I don't know, I prefered the metagame before that minus the 10variations of hellion+something Terran allins of two base.
Right now zerg has been dumbed down completly, and at some points I don't really see the difference between a master player like me and a platinum player with Zerg anymore, when it comes down to the first ~8mins of a game. Hatch first, pool hatch get a bunch of queens, spread some creep and drone. It's gotten kind of stupid right now, to the point where I'm just like: "you know. I'm doing this mass drone stuff because I know I'm safe and even though noone will attack me, I still keep on scouting stuff. You on the other hand don't even have an OL in place to see him walking out, you would not be able to survive any weird rush if any weird rush was possible, yet somehow we end up on the same setup after the said 8mins and even then, strategies that were kind of technical like 2base double upgrades+expansion, 2base leenock style mutas, 2base ling/bling midgame busts have all degenerated to: get 3bases and only after you have everything up go for the gas and the tech and units and upgrades." Basically the only big difference I see in my play and one of a platinum leaguer, is that I'm keeping the one zergling alive that is at the watchtower, when the terran walks out and I'm canceling some of my tumours and add more over the cause of time, while he just replaces them.
Right now playing zerg is way to forgiving, due to how superior the economic setup is early on, compared to the old builds. While a lot of times with the 2base openings against hellions, the main focus was about keeping stuff alive, the new 3hatch builds are all about replacing stuff and most decisions have been dumbed down. It doesn't feel like outplaying an opponent anymore. It feels like you just play the same 5scenes over and over again, just with different conclusions, but with hardly any dynamics.
My opinion on this is quite simple. Revert the queen change and if that leads to too much hellion-hellion, hellion-marine, hellion-tank, hellion-2port, hellion-marauder, hellion-medivac etc stuff again, find a different way to buff zerg early on. One that does not include breaking the hellion contain at 5min with units you would go for anyways, but rather one that may include gas and larva - while it should not cost 425/75 for 3roaches to push the hellions away or 725/175 if you want to properly justify the construction of the roach warren and be somewhat allin or semiallin.
Just to put it here again, because I think it fits here. This would be my idea to accomplish something like that.
+ Show Spoiler +Number 1:Roach - life from 145 to 125 "Tunneling Claws" changed: -) Regeneration bonus removed (so roach only has the "standard rapid regeneration" of 5HP/sec) -) Heal bonus added: anytime the roach burrows, it immidiatly regains 15HP + Show Spoiler +The way burrow works, is that you it takes some time to burrow (0.55sec + a rnd number from 0.00 to 0.10sec for the roach)
and it takes some time to unburrow (0.44sec+ a rnd number from 0.00 to 0.10sec for the roach).
This means that burrowing and unburrowing takes 0.99-1.19sec for a roach.
If you do this perfectly, it means that the roach regenerates 15+(2 to 3 for the 0.44-0.54 time it takes to uburrow)=17 to 18HP everytime you do this.
To make roaches as efficient as they are right now, you have to burrow them at least once in a combat in a way, that it doesn't lose an attack. So statistically speaking, you really should try to make them burrow more than once.
Numbers are kind of arbitrary and would have to be balanced of course. (125HP roaches might be too bad before the upgrade and have too many problems against very high damage dealers, 15-20HP regeneration for some double clicking might be too much in certain situations etc) It will also depend on how well a good player can really micro them in the end - so how precise you can burrow single or few injured roaches without burrowing noninjured, how many shots you statistically lose etc... (Queen buff reverted) Preroach (this name is not discussable! :D ) Requires: Spawning Pool Cost: 150-50, proably longer build time than the normal roach (so maybe like 35-40 instead of 27) Stats: Those of the Roach right now or slightly lower and slower Roach (replaces Preroach) Requires: Roach Warren (Lairtech!) Cost: 75-25 Stats: Those of the Roach right now Preroaches and Roaches start with burrow or burrow now only requires a spawning pool (though I think in this variant the preroach is too expensive and should be like 125-50 or 150-25). + Show Spoiler +weakens/removes early roach allins, because they are not affordable anymore. Gives the Zerg the opportunity to get very few preroaches for defensive measures out or to maybe micro down a bunker or a canon with them. As a comparison: 7RR costs (150 Warren+50drone+7*75roaches+7*25gas roaches = ) 725/175 4 Preroach rush costs: 600/200 And I mean, who would not love to see the single preroach running across the map when a Protoss goes for a gateway expand, and the Protoss desperatly trying to snipe or block it, so that it can't block the Nexus
|
On July 21 2012 20:57 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:On July 21 2012 20:32 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro. Not to mention that a zerg needs more APM to manage their macro than a terran or toss could even dream off. False. Using Orbital energy or chronoing is just as "hard" as injecting. The only difference is that Zerg macro is simplified and all comes from one building. It also comes with a better economy by default (in practice). This means that Zerg macro is the mechanically the same to execute while being more simple and giving more benefits. Not really, not only you can stockpile orbitals and throw several mule/chrono at the same time, but the need for Z to say 1 base ahead means they have to manage a much bigger economy
And Zerg doesn't have to know anything about production scaling, balancing add-on types, or the importance of base layout in general compared to Terran. Zerg macro may involve a bit more clicking but it's all automatic and repetitious. Even droning is pretty thoughtless and easy now thanks to buffed queens and all the defensive/map vision advantages they provide.
|
On July 21 2012 20:32 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro. You are totally right. While you are microing your ass off at those multiple locations the zerg is just picking his nose. The zerg has to defend those 2 spots you are attacking and believe me it's just as hard for a zerg to defend a drop as it is for you to do it, before fungal that is.
The problem is not that if it is harder to drop at multiple places or defend at multiple places (defending is easier, of course), but the problem is if zerg defends, the terran is behind. If the terran did not attempt to drop or do damage, guess who is behind again: the terran. If the terran does some damage, they are even. If you don't see the problem here, no further discussion is needed: you are biased.
The sad thing is that you and many other people apparently think it is ok. I would oh so much LOVE if I had the possibility to have 30 workers advantage before the 6-th minute mark and then it would be up to my opponent to do something, anything, just not to face my dreaded a move composition and instant remax.
I don't believe you it is harder for zerg to defend a drop than it is for me to do it. In fact, I am sure it is not so. I have to actually pick a drop spot, then when landed, I have to stim and maybe focus targets of value. Before fungal, zerg deals with drops by selecting a group of lings, then a moving them behind the place of the drop. While it is hard for many zergs to do so, even with vision on the entire map given by overlords and creep spread, you do have to admit that most people not being 3 year old or having polio can box a group of units, press a button on the keyboard and then mouse click.
|
On July 21 2012 20:57 Protosnake wrote:
Not really, not only you can stockpile orbitals and throw several mule/chrono at the same time, but the need for Z to say 1 base ahead means they have to manage a much bigger economy
Oh, how dreadful is to have a much bigger economy. I wish real world worked like this so I can alleviate you of managing so large funds. Let me handle a bigger economy, let me worry. After all, having 30 workers + than your opponent is a bad thing and very very hard to manage.
|
On July 21 2012 21:15 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:32 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro. You are totally right. While you are microing your ass off at those multiple locations the zerg is just picking his nose. The zerg has to defend those 2 spots you are attacking and believe me it's just as hard for a zerg to defend a drop as it is for you to do it, before fungal that is. The problem is not that if it is harder to drop at multiple places or defend at multiple places (defending is easier, of course), but the problem is if zerg defends, the terran is behind. If the terran did not attempt to drop or do damage, guess who is behind again: the terran. If the terran does some damage, they are even. If you don't see the problem here, no further discussion is needed: you are biased. The sad thing is that you and many other people apparently think it is ok. I would oh so much LOVE if I had the possibility to have 30 workers advantage before the 6-th minute mark and then it would be up to my opponent to do something, anything, just not to face my dreaded a move composition and instant remax. I don't believe you it is harder for zerg to defend a drop than it is for me to do it. In fact, I am sure it is not so. I have to actually pick a drop spot, then when landed, I have to stim and maybe focus targets of value. Before fungal, zerg deals with drops by selecting a group of lings, then a moving them behind the place of the drop. While it is hard for many zergs to do so, even with vision on the entire map given by overlords and creep spread, you do have to admit that most people not being 3 year old or having polio can box a group of units, press a button on the keyboard and then mouse click.
Not to mention the fact that making smaller selections to section off your army against banelings and infestors rolling in in harder and more time sensitive.
Building a few spines and spores in key location buys Zergs plenty of time to react.
|
You are calling me biased. please take a look at your own posts...
On July 21 2012 20:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:32 wcr.4fun wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro. Not to mention that a zerg needs more APM to manage their macro than a terran or toss could even dream off. False. Using Orbital energy or chronoing is just as "hard" as injecting. The only difference is that Zerg macro is simplified and all comes from one building. It also comes with a better economy by default (in practice). This means that Zerg macro is the mechanically the same to execute while being more simple and giving more benefits.
No.. Inject is a lot harder. If you miss injects you're dead. You can't somehow inject your hatchery twice and get double the amount of larvae. If you manage to stack some energy on your nexus or orbital you just drop 2 mules or 2 chronos at the same time which can even prove to be benificial while having less larvae is just never beneficial.
Not to mention nobody gives a shit about chronoboost in the late game; how many nexuses I see stacked with energy in the late game of 'pro' protoss players. Same for terrans. Stack orbital energy, no biggie, just drop 8 mules instead of 4 at the same time.
Like I said it takes a lot less APM to manage chrono boost and orbital energy and it's a lot more forgiving than inject larvae.
Zergs have more bases and you have to do it for every base. On the other hand you just select all your nexi or orbitals and just move your screen to whatever base you want and use the energy in one go.
And people also forget that creepspread takes a lot of attention, in theory you have to be there every 15 seconds for every creep tumour you ever planted. And you have to be there for every new tumour you want to plant every 25 seconds.
And inject larvae and creep tumour are only 25 energy opposed to mule which is 50. So injecting larvae has double the frequency. Chronoboost is only 25 but who ever has as much nexi as queens? nobody.
|
Wouldn't be better for terran if Ravens were a factory unit?
It would turn the transition into Battlecruiser more viable IMO since Raven wouldn't take Starport prodution time, wich would allow terran to transition to Raven BC with at least 2 less Starports than it may be needed now.
And it would help to control the crazy zerg creep spread since the queen buff. The cost of the Raven would still make it unviable to mass early game, so major issues combat wise won't be a real problem.
getting Raven upgrades from Tech Labs on otherwise Idle factories would be much better too, specialy because it allows a better transition from Marine Tank, that is one of the most standards TvZ compositions.
|
The raven has 5 upgrades.. I repeat.. THE RAVEN HAS FIVE UPGRADES!!!! and its not worth researching even one of them lol
|
Reverting the Queen buff probably wouldn't make people all-in more often. If the buff is reverted, Zerg players have to invest something into defense again - some gas (Roaches), lots of larvae (Lings) or attention and time (Crawler reroots), so they end up playing fair instead of broken - the whole point of the Hellion expand was to force us to play fair - and make no mistake, unhindered Zerg economy is broken. It was ok beforehand because you needed to outplay the opponent to access it. That isn't the case anymore when Queens are better in combat than Roaches, cost no gas or Larvae and don't need that much micro. And then you get mass creep to nerf midgame pushes.
It's easy and standardizes hilariously outrageous greed. I remember when insane creep spread was impressive. I remember being impressed by very greedy Lair and Hive timings. Not anymore. Because all that shit is safe and boring. What the hell is going on if you need an all-in to punish completely ludicrous greed? Not good games, of that I'm sure.*
Buffing the Terran lategame a bit is a good idea, but for goodness' sake don't leave it at that. The game is already horrible to watch because it's so binary - as Jinro put it in a comment about toss, you choose to be a rabid monkey on speed or a sedated sloth. The middleground is evaporating because noncommittal pressure has been nerfed to hell and back. And it makes for some terribly dull games.
So, if you want to keep Zerg a bit safer? (Unnecessary IMHO, there never was a problem, but anyway
Revert the Queen buff, perhaps revert some Terran early game nerfs. And then help those Zerg investments in defense work better in some way. The key is just thatb defending slows the Zerg economy back to sanity and that the defense investment allows Z to fend off the Terran harassment on equal terms.
*Addendum: More than an SC2 enthusiast, I'm an MtG player. I like combo because hey, broken things feel fun. One thing I've noticed over the years is that straight up broken shit stays fun only for a while - when you're still amazed that omfg how is this even allowed. Then it becomes so very dull. The one deck I've stayed with over the years is a concoction that can occasionally do hilariously broken things, but usually ends up playing fair in an attempt to stay alive and then sneak the brokenness in somewhere as a finishing blow or as a calculated risk. This keeps the temptation and fun of brokenness (in SC2, the unhindered Zerg economy) but delivers actual games. Plus doing ridiculous things feels like an accomplishment.
As another way to think about it, imagine if Marines automatically did the MKP thing and beat banelings? They can do that already, but it requires good calls and micro to do it. It's a ridiculous thing as a reward of great play. Standardizing antibling splits would just make that boring and stupid-feeling instead of amazing and the feeling of greatness would just wear off in short order.
|
On July 21 2012 21:38 derpinator wrote:
The raven has 5 upgrades.. I repeat.. THE RAVEN HAS FIVE UPGRADES!!!! and its not worth researching even one of them lol
The bunker has 6upgrades. I repeat. THE BUNKER HAS SIX UPGRADES!!!!! and it doesn't even need one of them to be good.
Just to point out how stupid this talk about 5-6 raven upgrades is. It has essentially 2 important upgrades (energy, HSM), one that you should get anyways when going air (air ups), one that you should get anyway in the lategame because it's kind of cheap and kind of great in a ton of cases (hi-sec) and two weird ones, which I don't get how they made it into the game anyways, when applying the same argumentation as why lurkers were cut. (building armor, durable materials - though buidling armor is kind of like hi-sec, just weaker and the idea behind it kind of... well... why is it here? it could be as well on any race and still don't make sense, for protoss it would at least give a little bit of backup in basetrades, which they suck hard at atm).
|
On July 21 2012 21:51 Coffee Zombie wrote:Reverting the Queen buff probably wouldn't make people all-in more often. If the buff is reverted, Zerg players have to invest something into defense again - some gas (Roaches), lots of larvae (Lings) or attention and time (Crawler reroots), so they end up playing fair instead of broken - the whole point of the Hellion expand was to force us to play fair - and make no mistake, unhindered Zerg economy is broken. It was ok beforehand because you needed to outplay the opponent to access it. That isn't the case anymore when Queens are better in combat than Roaches, cost no gas or Larvae and don't need that much micro. And then you get mass creep to nerf midgame pushes. It's easy and standardizes hilariously outrageous greed. I remember when insane creep spread was impressive. I remember being impressed by very greedy Lair and Hive timings. Not anymore. Because all that shit is safe and boring. What the hell is going on if you need an all-in to punish completely ludicrous greed? Not good games, of that I'm sure.* Buffing the Terran lategame a bit is a good idea, but for goodness' sake don't leave it at that. The game is already horrible to watch because it's so binary - as Jinro put it in a comment about toss, you choose to be a rabid monkey on speed or a sedated sloth. The middleground is evaporating because noncommittal pressure has been nerfed to hell and back. And it makes for some terribly dull games. So, if you want to keep Zerg a bit safer? (Unnecessary IMHO, there never was a problem, but anyway Revert the Queen buff, perhaps some Terran early game nerfs. And then help those Zerg investments in defense work better in some way. The key is just thatb defending slows the Zerg economy back to sanity and that the defense investment allows Z to fend off the Terran harassment on equal terms. *Addendum: More than an SC2 enthusiast, I'm an MtG player. I like combo because hey, broken things feel fun. One thing I've noticed over the years is that straight up broken shit stays fun only for a while - when you're still amazed that omfg how is this even allowed. Then it becomes so very dull. The one deck I've stayed with over the years is a concoction that can occasionally do hilariously broken things, but usually ends up playing fair in an attempt to stay alive and then sneak the brokenness in somewhere as a finishing blow or as a calculated risk. This keeps the temptation and fun of brokenness (in SC2, the unhindered Zerg economy) but delivers actual games. Plus doing ridiculous things feels like an accomplishment. As another way to think about it, imagine if Marines automatically did the MKP thing and beat banelings? They can do that already, but it requires good calls and micro to do it. It's a ridiculous thing as a reward of great play. Standardizing antibling splits would just make that boring and stupid-feeling instead of amazing and the feeling of greatness would just wear off in short order.
honest people with honest opinions. I like that, especially if they match mine
Could you give me feedback (per PM or in this thread) on the roach idea I posted above? (in the spoiler) Because you seem to get what this game needs.
|
On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:No.. Inject is a lot harder. If you miss injects you're dead.
Irrelevant statements.
On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:You can't somehow inject your hatchery twice and get double the amount of larvae.
You can however blow it all on transfuses or creeps tumors. Invalid point.
On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:Not to mention nobody gives a shit about chronoboost in the late game; how many nexuses I see stacked with energy in the late game of 'pro' protoss players. Same for terrans. Stack orbital energy, no biggie, just drop 8 mules instead of 4 at the same time.
If I had a quarter for every "pro" Zerg with full energy queens... (which showcases how imba inject currently is if you can still do half-assed and still max at 13 minutes)
On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:Like I said it takes a lot less APM to manage chrono boost and orbital energy and it's a lot more forgiving than inject larvae.
No it doesn't. It's the same process. If you're going to fall back on the "I cant inject twice" argument then I've already invalidated that.
Additionally Zerg is signifcantly more forgiving when it comes to macro. When Zerg gets supply blocked you can still stockpile larva. This makes Zerg more forgiving than any other race in regards to macro difficulty as you don't get punished.
On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:Zergs have more bases and you have to do it for every base. On the other hand you just select all your nexi or orbitals and just move your screen to whatever base you want and use the energy in one go.
Zergs only have more bases because the game is designed to give them a free fully saturated third currently.
On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:And people also forget that creepspread takes a lot of attention, in theory you have to be there every 15 seconds for every creep tumour you ever planted. And you have to be there for every new tumour you want to plant every 25 seconds.
And yet every Zerg down to bronze has creep at the opponent's natural 12 minutes suddenly after a patch. It must be very mechanically demanding, right?
|
|
|
On July 21 2012 21:55 Big J wrote:honest people with honest opinions. I like that, especially if they match mine Could you give me feedback (per PM or in this thread) on the roach idea I posted above? (in the spoiler) Because you seem to get what this game needs.
Interesting but unnecessary, and falls a bit into the stupid trap that introduced the macro crutches in the first place: Making things difficult to do for difficulty's sake. It's fine insofar that people like doing things that are difficult to do at all, but in the context of a core element of Starcraft it is a bad thing. Difficult characters in fighting games and difficult decks in card games are fine because there's a million characters and decks. Making key parts of one faction out of three difficult for the sake of it just annoys people. It's better to have demanding builds, see bioballs or mutaling vs. mech or roach/infestor-heavy comps. Those are choices the players can make without excluding a whole mechanical/flavourful thing from a huge portion of the playerbase than hates those kinds of things.
As far as the ten million Hellion all-ins go, those are dealt pretty well by Tier 1 Zerg units already, you just need to be able to see the all-in coming which the new Ferrarilords help with. That's why I think the preroach thing is unnecessary. All the tools are there already, and those tools are damn good ones (Unlike Nyuds Worms and Ravens XD) it's just up to the players to use them.
|
On July 21 2012 21:58 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:No.. Inject is a lot harder. If you miss injects you're dead. Irrelevant statements. Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:You can't somehow inject your hatchery twice and get double the amount of larvae. You can however blow it all on transfuses or creeps tumors. Invalid point. Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:Not to mention nobody gives a shit about chronoboost in the late game; how many nexuses I see stacked with energy in the late game of 'pro' protoss players. Same for terrans. Stack orbital energy, no biggie, just drop 8 mules instead of 4 at the same time. If I had a quarter for every "pro" Zerg with full energy queens... (which showcases how imba inject currently is if you can still do half-assed and still max at 13 minutes) Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:Like I said it takes a lot less APM to manage chrono boost and orbital energy and it's a lot more forgiving than inject larvae. No it doesn't. It's the same process. If you're going to fall back on the "I cant inject twice" argument then I've already invalidated that. Additionally Zerg is signifcantly more forgiving when it comes to macro. When Zerg gets supply blocked you can still stockpile larva. This makes Zerg more forgiving than any other race in regards to macro difficulty as you don't get punished. Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:Zergs have more bases and you have to do it for every base. On the other hand you just select all your nexi or orbitals and just move your screen to whatever base you want and use the energy in one go. Zergs only have more bases because the game is designed to give them a free fully saturated third currently. Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 21:21 wcr.4fun wrote:And people also forget that creepspread takes a lot of attention, in theory you have to be there every 15 seconds for every creep tumour you ever planted. And you have to be there for every new tumour you want to plant every 25 seconds. And yet every Zerg down to bronze has creep at the opponent's natural 12 minutes suddenly after a patch. It must be very mechanically demanding, right?
Yeah you're deluded, no reason to keep arguing against a person like that.
|
Don't get me wrong: Zerg's macro mechanics require a higher baseline APM than the P/T counterparts, but that doesn't matter at the highest level. Why? Because macroing as Zerg is, in the words of Idra "repetitive." It's not something you need to think to execute, which means it doesn't detract from your ability to make decisions. It is, in a word, mindless. That doesn't mean that players who have perfect injects aren't very good, mind you, because they are, but it means that they're utilizing their muscle memory, not executing anything tactically impressive. The real problem is that if you remove this macro APM sink from Zerg (imagine a world in which Inject/Creep spread were mostly automatic) then you see that there's not actually a lot left compared to what the other two races need to do. This isn't really the fault of Zerg players, but the micro required to play Zerg at a high level (except maybe in ZvZ) is not difficult. Every time a caster compliments Stephano's micro (which is good) I can't help but think that there are literally 30 Protoss and Terran players for whom that micro falls under the heading of "Combat 101." In addition, Zerg players often act like they're the only ones who need to respect positioning when they engage. Clearly they've never watched TvP or tried attacking into Infestor/BL.
Tl;dr: Yes, Zerg has the highest macro sink APM-wise, but this isn't really entitle them to having easy everything else.
|
Basically what Shiori has said, but Zerg macro mechanics, while harder than Terran's and Protoss's (and you can make an argument that adding on stuff is just as/if not harder, etc) it's not really that hard. To put it better, it's not so hard to do - that it should provide such a huge benefit.
If you think injects are hard, then every race's macro mechanics are going to be hard.
|
On July 21 2012 22:36 Chaggi wrote:
Basically what Shiori has said, but Zerg macro mechanics, while harder than Terran's and Protoss's (and you can make an argument that adding on stuff is just as/if not harder, etc) it's not really that hard. To put it better, it's not so hard to do - that it should provide such a huge benefit.
If you think injects are hard, then every race's macro mechanics are going to be hard.
Yep. If I switched to Zerg today, the biggest thing that would stand between me and maintaining my current rank would be Injects. It's not that I lack he APM to do them, since I play quite fast, but that I'm not used to doing them and therefore don't have that rhythm. The engagements, decisions, and build orders seem to me very easy compared to the airtight things I need to do as Protoss.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
