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Why do you all write like spoiled 6 year olds not getting a cookie from momma Blizzard?! Not a single argument, just claims, selective 'proof' and a lot of whining in general. This is a BALANCE DISCUSSION thread not a CRY MY FUCKING ASS OF thread.
On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:17 Toastie.NL wrote:Firstly, your post doesn't address my post. Actually, it is a prime example of the problem I pointed out in this thread. This already makes you come across as a biased, frustrated Terran player. Link 1: I haven't heard of said tournament, I only recognize the names of a few players, which I don't see as the best ever. My conclusion; not a prestigious tournament and not representative of the highest level. Link 2: Most of these tournaments we're soon after the patch, when the Terran Metagame hadn't caught up yet. Thus, this picture is not representative of the highest level nowadays. Link 3: National tournament, not the biggest names. I'll give it to you, Zerg is easier at the semi- pro level, but we should care about the pro's, the guys that really practice and are on top of the metagame, not those who slack behind (as given in link 1/3). None of your 'proofs' are actual evidence of a skewed balance situation that is occuring right at this moment. Battlenet race distribution is a retarded source to call for balance. - Europeans and Americans play a lot more defenisive (turtle style) than koreans. Terran is the race that suffers from this because the race can't sit back and macro, because it will lose in the long run. - Terran has had a ton of nerfs, causing it to devellop new styles all the time. This requires people to relearn their race regularly which is demotivating. - Terran was the 'OP noob race' and a lot of the players have undoubtedly be BM'ed a lot during beta and 2011. Which might have made them switch (being harassed after every game is not fun) On July 21 2012 19:08 sieksdekciw wrote:Queen has to either have lower dmg, lower range, lower health, or be occupied for the full time for injects and until each tumor is done. Additionally, tumors should have +10 second lay down time. Currently, there are almost no viable options for terran or toss to harrass zerg in early to mid game. And since Blizz are sticking with the idea with the asymmetrical balance, terran HAS to do damage to the zerg in early to mid game.
Nerfing queen builds to the ground is the only solution. Zergs are going to be demoted to their rightful leagues and we are all going to have a better game. This is just uninformed biased rubbish, not going to comment on it. What you answered basically is: 'Yeah, I am a zerg player and how dare you provide tournament results as proof that the game is imba. Also, these tournament results disagree with what I am feeling as a person and as a zerg player. Also bla bla bla` The truth is that at the pro level, terrans have twice as good mechanics compared to their zerg counterparts. You can't deny that it is just easier to a move bl lings and place a fungal here and there, than siege up, stim, split, focus fire with siege tanks, split more, split vikings all the time. However, even with their twice (at least) better mechanics, terran players don't win twice as much as zergs. What is more, they lose most of their games. ZvT is the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, as statistics will show you. Is there any measure for Mechanics? It's really easy to a- move Broodlords and Lings. What will happen? Lings suicide themselves and Broodlords clump like retarded peaches? Corruptors rush into Marines and die?
ZvT is indeed the most imbalanced matchup. In early release. In Terrans favor.
Zerg macro is a lot more intense than Terran Macro, Positioning with broodlords plays a huge role with Zerg, it's the same as Siege Tanks. You need to keep your army well positioned.
If you have to deal with A-move zergs, get +3 vehicle weapons and Thors, which at a low level is feasible. +3 thors SHRED +0/+1 Broodlords that clump up.
The micro required in the engagement for Terran is hard, sure, but splitting and sieging can be done before the engagement. After that, you have to keep your army split.
I highly dislike how Fungal abuses the AI and is a non- micro ability, I hate the ability for it's design, it's just stupid. But you have to start fighting it and stop crying.So, back to the question of imbalance, I believe the problem is the queen allows zerg to drone safely vs terran without making any other units. That, of course, is unfair, since the queen is also the main macro mechanics, and a means of increasing map awareness, healing. You can't have a unit that heals, helps macro, helps map awareness, and on top of that wins a head to head fight with 2.5 hellions which, by the way, are battle units. The Queen is a support unit. It is both a support caster as well as a macro mechanic. Also, 6 queen builds take 900 minerals from the Zerg (600 if you exclude the necessary queens).
Punish it. Get a 3rd CC, or go for a fast Stim timing, use Bio, which is good vs Queens. Figure something out, like the PRO terran players are doing. They seem to do just fine again.
Also, Hellions aren't battle units, Combat Hellions will be, but our WoL Hellions are speciallised vs Light at best. They don't have stats for long engagements.
Your logic around the queen is Flawed.So the queen needs to stop being that swiss army knife in the zerg arsenal. My proposed solution is for the queens to be 'busy' while injecting and creep spreading. That would make reaper openings more viable again, hellion openings less of a waste, and will help the metagame overall. Or we can reduce queen's damage and health. What do you mean by 'Busy'? a Channeling ability? Way to completely thrash everything ZvZ and throw it back into Banelingwars? How would you even do that? you'll have to redesign the entire Zerg race because Zergs early defense will be screwed as well as all the creep mechanics.
Also, the Marine does the same for Terran. Nerf health to 40 and reduce range to 4 because the Marine, in fact, kills everything well?
While we're at it, Stalkers need to be reduced to 40/40 Health, Thors lose their AA attack, Ghost aren't allowed to wear a weapon and use spells and re- arming takes 5 seconds? What the fuck are you making up?
What you answered basically is:
'Yeah, I am a Terran player. If you have any arguments for why my incomplete graphs and carefully selected tournament results are wrong you must be retarded and play Zerg.'
Actually, I play Random. Hah. Rest of comments in Italic.
Also, you show you clearly have no understanding of the Zerg race, the lategame engagements (which require a ton of control, actually) and the design of this game. Try to show some more insight next time or I'll just refuse to answer and respond tou you and come with a stupid one- liner like you did.
On July 21 2012 19:31 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +Europeans and Americans play a lot more defenisive (turtle style) than koreans. Terran is the race that suffers from this because the race can't sit back and macro, because it will lose in the long run.
You don't see a problem with this? It's retarded just in general that one race has to be constantly harassing while the others don't. But even worse, EVERY terran opener has been either directly nerfed or indirectly nerfed. It's broken, seriously there is no denying it.
Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
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On July 21 2012 19:40 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 18:55 Toastie.NL wrote:
Is this the 'TL Terran QQ Thread' or the Discussion thread?
Is this the "Biased Zerg Denial QQ thread" or the Discussion thread? Being a player of all races it's painfully obvious to everyone who is impartial how Zerg biased you are to defend your broken race in some (sadly in vain) attempt to protect your ego.
Demigod Demiintelligence?
I play Random. Go ahead, deny it, make silly claims and call me a liar. Disregard any argument I make for Terran or Zerg by saying I am Biased.
I enjoy my game and I know what I am talking about. Can you say the same?
At least explain the -In Vain- part. It's easy to yell, but what is the real problem?
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Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say.
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On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:17 Toastie.NL wrote:Firstly, your post doesn't address my post. Actually, it is a prime example of the problem I pointed out in this thread. This already makes you come across as a biased, frustrated Terran player. Link 1: I haven't heard of said tournament, I only recognize the names of a few players, which I don't see as the best ever. My conclusion; not a prestigious tournament and not representative of the highest level. Link 2: Most of these tournaments we're soon after the patch, when the Terran Metagame hadn't caught up yet. Thus, this picture is not representative of the highest level nowadays. Link 3: National tournament, not the biggest names. I'll give it to you, Zerg is easier at the semi- pro level, but we should care about the pro's, the guys that really practice and are on top of the metagame, not those who slack behind (as given in link 1/3). None of your 'proofs' are actual evidence of a skewed balance situation that is occuring right at this moment. Battlenet race distribution is a retarded source to call for balance. - Europeans and Americans play a lot more defenisive (turtle style) than koreans. Terran is the race that suffers from this because the race can't sit back and macro, because it will lose in the long run. - Terran has had a ton of nerfs, causing it to devellop new styles all the time. This requires people to relearn their race regularly which is demotivating. - Terran was the 'OP noob race' and a lot of the players have undoubtedly be BM'ed a lot during beta and 2011. Which might have made them switch (being harassed after every game is not fun) On July 21 2012 19:08 sieksdekciw wrote:Queen has to either have lower dmg, lower range, lower health, or be occupied for the full time for injects and until each tumor is done. Additionally, tumors should have +10 second lay down time. Currently, there are almost no viable options for terran or toss to harrass zerg in early to mid game. And since Blizz are sticking with the idea with the asymmetrical balance, terran HAS to do damage to the zerg in early to mid game.
Nerfing queen builds to the ground is the only solution. Zergs are going to be demoted to their rightful leagues and we are all going to have a better game. This is just uninformed biased rubbish, not going to comment on it. The truth is that at the pro level, terrans have twice as good mechanics compared to their zerg counterparts.
And how would you know that? Do you train with them?
On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:
You can't deny that it is just easier to a move bl lings and place a fungal here and there, than siege up, stim, split, focus fire with siege tanks, split more, split vikings all the time.
Yeah. It's also easier to just a move marines. Luckily neither the Zerg nor the Terran pros do the easy stuff, but rather go for the hard stuff, like counter splitting and targeting banelings on marines, getting the flanks in at the right times and from the right angles to block movement, focusing tanks and pulling infestors and Broodlords to safety.
It's sad to see people so biased, that they don't even acknowledge what proplayers are doing. Go and do this on the ladder, but stop flaming pros.
On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:
However, even with their twice (at least) better mechanics, terran players don't win twice as much as zergs.
How do you even define "twice as good mechanics"? Twice as many APM? Twice as many EAPM? Twice as much distance covered with screenmovement?
But I'm sure as you can give so exact estimates on mechanics, you can quantify them as well. So go ahead. Or can't you? Or maybe what you are talking about is "Terrans drop more and use more marines"? lol
On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:
What is more, they lose most of their games. ZvT is the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, as statistics will show you.
Go on, find me those statistics that show ZvT is more broken right now than any other MU was before --> so you have to find a representative statistic for balance over a periode of time, and then compare it to each other such statistic.
(for example you could pick winrate in TvZ per month, and then compare it to every other MU in every other month in SC2. Hint: you can't top the Korean 66% TvP winrate from April 2011 with a TvZ statistic, so you better find some other statistics about TvZ than winrates, though I can't see any that would be more representative than the winrates, but as you are so certain, I'm pretty sure you will find something)
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On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say.
Please explain, clearly you know it really well  !
To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play.
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On July 21 2012 19:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 21 2012 19:17 Toastie.NL wrote:Firstly, your post doesn't address my post. Actually, it is a prime example of the problem I pointed out in this thread. This already makes you come across as a biased, frustrated Terran player. Link 1: I haven't heard of said tournament, I only recognize the names of a few players, which I don't see as the best ever. My conclusion; not a prestigious tournament and not representative of the highest level. Link 2: Most of these tournaments we're soon after the patch, when the Terran Metagame hadn't caught up yet. Thus, this picture is not representative of the highest level nowadays. Link 3: National tournament, not the biggest names. I'll give it to you, Zerg is easier at the semi- pro level, but we should care about the pro's, the guys that really practice and are on top of the metagame, not those who slack behind (as given in link 1/3). None of your 'proofs' are actual evidence of a skewed balance situation that is occuring right at this moment. Battlenet race distribution is a retarded source to call for balance. - Europeans and Americans play a lot more defenisive (turtle style) than koreans. Terran is the race that suffers from this because the race can't sit back and macro, because it will lose in the long run. - Terran has had a ton of nerfs, causing it to devellop new styles all the time. This requires people to relearn their race regularly which is demotivating. - Terran was the 'OP noob race' and a lot of the players have undoubtedly be BM'ed a lot during beta and 2011. Which might have made them switch (being harassed after every game is not fun) On July 21 2012 19:08 sieksdekciw wrote:Queen has to either have lower dmg, lower range, lower health, or be occupied for the full time for injects and until each tumor is done. Additionally, tumors should have +10 second lay down time. Currently, there are almost no viable options for terran or toss to harrass zerg in early to mid game. And since Blizz are sticking with the idea with the asymmetrical balance, terran HAS to do damage to the zerg in early to mid game.
Nerfing queen builds to the ground is the only solution. Zergs are going to be demoted to their rightful leagues and we are all going to have a better game. This is just uninformed biased rubbish, not going to comment on it. The truth is that at the pro level, terrans have twice as good mechanics compared to their zerg counterparts. And how would you know that? Do you train with them? Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:
You can't deny that it is just easier to a move bl lings and place a fungal here and there, than siege up, stim, split, focus fire with siege tanks, split more, split vikings all the time. Yeah. It's also easier to just a move marines. Luckily neither the Zerg nor the Terran pros do the easy stuff, but rather go for the hard stuff, like counter splitting and targeting banelings on marines, getting the flanks in at the right times and from the right angles to block movement, focusing tanks and pulling infestors and Broodlords to safety. It's sad to see people so biased, that they don't even acknowledge what proplayers are doing. Go and do this on the ladder, but stop flaming pros. Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:
However, even with their twice (at least) better mechanics, terran players don't win twice as much as zergs. How do you even define "twice as good mechanics"? Twice as many APM? Twice as many EAPM? Twice as much distance covered with screenmovement? But I'm sure as you can give so exact estimates on mechanics, you can quantify them as well. So go ahead. Or can't you? Or maybe what you are talking about is "Terrans drop more and use more marines"? lol Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:30 sieksdekciw wrote:
What is more, they lose most of their games. ZvT is the most imbalanced matchup in the history of SC2, as statistics will show you.
Go on, find me those statistics that show ZvT is more broken right now than any other MU was before --> so you have to find a representative statistic for balance over a periode of time, and then compare it to each other such statistic. (for example you could pick winrate in TvZ per month, and then compare it to every other MU in every other month in SC2. Hint: you can't top the Korean 66% TvP winrate from April 2011 with a TvZ statistic, so you better find some other statistics about TvZ than winrates, though I can't see any that would be more representative than the winrates, but as you are so certain, I'm pretty sure you will find something)
Are you out of your mind? Are you asking them to be reasonable?
Asking them to explain all their bold statements?
Get actual proof?
Lol.
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On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play.
Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case.
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On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play.
Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it.
Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro.
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On July 21 2012 19:59 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case.
I don't need any help supporting my case, everyone already knows zerg is OP except for you apparently.
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On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro.
I think you lost your credibility when you said you think that blizzard intentionally made zerg overpowered. It's clear you are only here to whine about how bad you think your race is, you haven't said anything meaningful or rational. Leaving this thread now before I lose my mind.
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On July 21 2012 20:05 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro. I think you lost your credibility when you said you think that blizzard intentionally made zerg overpowered. It's clear you are only here to whine about how bad you think your race is, you haven't said anything meaningful or rational. Leaving this thread now before I lose my mind.
Excellent post, you really proved me wrong by...completely dodging my questions.
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On July 21 2012 20:02 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:59 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case. I don't need any help supporting my case, everyone already knows zerg is OP except for you apparently.
He's in denial. I think a vital spot was hit. It really sinks deep to him and hurts his ego.
It's best to let ones like that be, as they will ignore even hard evidence that has been repeatedly posted by players of all races showing gross PvZ and TvZ imbalances.
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On July 21 2012 19:49 Toastie.NL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:40 DemigodcelpH wrote:On July 21 2012 18:55 Toastie.NL wrote:
Is this the 'TL Terran QQ Thread' or the Discussion thread?
Is this the "Biased Zerg Denial QQ thread" or the Discussion thread? Being a player of all races it's painfully obvious to everyone who is impartial how Zerg biased you are to defend your broken race in some (sadly in vain) attempt to protect your ego. Demigod Demiintelligence? I play Random. Go ahead, deny it, make silly claims and call me a liar. Disregard any argument I make for Terran or Zerg by saying I am Biased. I enjoy my game and I know what I am talking about. Can you say the same? At least explain the -In Vain- part. It's easy to yell, but what is the real problem?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
You may a-move in game, but please don't try to a-move in discussions. You actually have to provide a valid argument.
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On July 21 2012 20:02 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:59 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case. I don't need any help supporting my case, everyone already knows zerg is OP except for you apparently.
Please read the statement you made several times. Then find the part that it is bad and not an argument. Then delete your comment and stop posting on this thread.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 21 2012 20:11 Notfragile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:02 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case. I don't need any help supporting my case, everyone already knows zerg is OP except for you apparently. Please read the statement you made several times. Then find the part that it is bad and not an argument. Then delete your comment and stop posting on this thread. + Show Spoiler +
He was logically sound. It's like being asked to prove that air exists or something. Everyone is already aware. The last 20 pages have piles of hard evidence supporting it already.
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On July 21 2012 20:11 Notfragile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:02 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case. I don't need any help supporting my case, everyone already knows zerg is OP except for you apparently. Please read the statement you made several times. Then find the part that it is bad and not an argument. Then delete your comment and stop posting on this thread. + Show Spoiler +
You haven't read the past few pages have you?
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You guys are ignorant and not worth my time. Read my posts and respond and stop bullshitting and insulting me because I disagree with you. <bad words>
Im gonna play anotger game, have fun, you knOw?
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On July 21 2012 20:14 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 20:11 Notfragile wrote:On July 21 2012 20:02 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 19:59 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Also, nitpicking one line out of a 2000 word post (2 post) doesn't really help your case. I don't need any help supporting my case, everyone already knows zerg is OP except for you apparently. Please read the statement you made several times. Then find the part that it is bad and not an argument. Then delete your comment and stop posting on this thread. + Show Spoiler + You haven't read the past few pages have you?
No, the guy is clearly in denial. Just... don't express yourself that way. It makes you look... dumb.
As for the actual discussion, from a spectator point of view:
Terran needs slightly better late game. The queen buff managed to get zergs to the late game more consistently. But there, the terran loses if on equal ground, most of the time. So...
-A small radius splash on viking attacks to be able to take down corrupter clouds, upgradeable on tech labs and being somewhat expensive so that it does not shut down early muta play
-Partially revert the ghost nerf. Not that bullshit that 20 ghosts with siege support annihilated army after army of zerg T3, but snipe being (for example) 35dmg might help.
-Make ravens more accessible, make corvid reactor baseline so the terran has time to transition before the blord/corrupter cloud reaches his base.
Some changes that would not affect the TvP lategame but help substantially the TvZ one. The solution is not to revert the queen buff so that terran all-ins more often. The solution is to give an actual late game option to the terran. Slightly weaker so there is still need for harassment but not so much that terran has to kill 40 drones to stand a chance.
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On July 21 2012 19:31 TheBlueMeaner wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:25 TechNoTrance wrote:On July 21 2012 18:24 Neurosis wrote:On July 21 2012 18:13 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 21 2012 17:56 ErAsc2 wrote:On July 21 2012 17:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On July 21 2012 17:12 ErAsc2 wrote:On July 21 2012 14:49 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 21 2012 14:42 bayside wrote:
Do you guys think that the Zerg Macro Mechanics are broken?
Yes. Any race that could safely reach an economic advantage and maintain it, is broken. Zerg has an eco advantage by default. Even builds like 3 cc or constantly cb probes can't saturate and have high enough income as a normal zerg build. This might be a lower level comment than you see on the battle.net forums... The races aren't all the same, Zerg is an economical race, it's one of their core strengths. That doesnt mean Zerg is broken. He is well aware of Zerg's primary role. However the Zerg end-game composition is stronger than P and T, and Zerg also has the best caster in the game. When you combine this with having the best economy and map control by default you get a mess. 1. No, the game is pretty damn balanced right now statistically. You can't just compare unit for unit and decide that a race is better because you like their spellcasters better. 2. Please change your TL icon to a terran one, if you pay close attention to your profile options, it clearly states " Your icon's race". Nobody will think you look less biased just because you have a zerg icon there mate 1. The game is heavily favoring zerg in any matchup 2. Zerg is clearly op, since a majority of people, even Korean pros, state that. 3. Zerg will be nerfed severely, even if you advocate it on TL. Blizzard are not blind, just slow. With HoTS around the corner I think they made zerg way OP on purpose. If that's the case then I doubt they plan on nerfing anything for zerg. This is the kind of post that makes me rarely come to check out this thread. Ridiculous how some people's logic work. Far too much whining here for any meaningful debate. Man just came to check if anything meaningful was going on. Whenever zerg was in slight disadvantage these same terrans would come and say everything is ok, use nydus, innovate. Now that zerg has the matchups down and they start having a slight disadvantage they can only come up with nerfs instead of learning how to play...
Zergs never "got" anything. Infestors were buffed, queens were buffed, ultras were buffed, and at the same time Terran's early game was nerfed with increases on stim/bunker/barracks completion time as well as the blue flame nerf. Zerg players are fooling themselves if they think the sudden Zerg domination in every league on every continent is anything but the result of patches. The queen buff was the last straw. ZvT is not balanced at all anymore, and ZvP hasn't been ever since turtle behind a million spines into an unkillable army was discovered.
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On July 21 2012 19:59 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 19:57 Toastie.NL wrote:On July 21 2012 19:54 Neurosis wrote:Why is that retarded? Terran is the best when harassing constantly and is probably the strongest race when doing so (given, current maps are to large for that).
Also, every opener was nerfed because every opener was to strong.
If you can't see why that is unfair from both a mechanical and strategic point of view then I don't know what else to say. Please explain, clearly you know it really well ! To me it seems like the hardest race gets rewarded the most the closer it gets to perfect play. Which is harder strategically? Saying to yourself, I'm gonna mass drones and defend with queens and static D (if needed). Or, trying to figure out a way to effectively kill drones whilst not going all in or over committing. This by the way, has gotten a hell of a lot more difficult considering every time terrans figure out a new way to kill drones to stay even Blizzard steps in and nerfs it. Mkay, which is harder mechanically. Sitting on your butt and focusing only on macro? Or, trying to micro in multiple locations at once WHILE also keeping up with your macro.
You are totally right. While you are microing your ass off at those multiple locations the zerg is just picking his nose. The zerg has to defend those 2 spots you are attacking and believe me it's just as hard for a zerg to defend a drop as it is for you to do it, before fungal that is. If you get in danger you just lift up your marines and get the hell out of there. Ever had 2 bases next to each other seperate by only a cliff and you need to go miles around on the ground but only an inch through air?
Right. The zerg has to split his army for that one single drop only to find out that the marines can handle all the zerglings you send to the bottom side of the cliff. And then when they're dead, your zerglings at the top can be shot at by the marines at the bottom of the cliff.
What I am saying is, it takes just as much attention for a zerg player to defend against a drop as a terran to execute the drop. What in earths name do you terran players think zerg players are doing the whole time?
Not to mention that a zerg needs more APM to manage their macro than a terran or toss could even dream off. Getting perfect macro for zerg is practically impossible because that would mean you'd have to select every creep tumour every 15 seconds. Use all your queens every time they get 25 energy. Know when to exactly make a drone or a combat unit, using every larva the second they spawn and you have enough minerals and so on...
So your openings got nerfed. Any clue why? Because they were OP as fuck lmao. 5 rax reaper as a prime example.
How is planning a double drop even hard strategically? I thought you would have learned how to do them since they've been going on since the dawn of time.
I'll show you what's hard 'strategically'.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226236
some reading for you.
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EPT
