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On August 14 2011 22:53 Ferox77 wrote: Why can’t NASL just realize that the Koreans do not want to participate in the league. IMO they look kind of pathetic begging the Koreans to play. NASL should not cater to anyone, just let the players who want an opportunity “apply” and then pick from those. It is kind of a problem as Koreans applied.
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On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on.
"The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama.
I dont see why they couldnt just say that.
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On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish.
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This whole situation is really messy and everyone comes off fishy. But for me, the Sc2Con and the Korean Players / Teams come off as dishonest and unprofessional, not just in the NASL drama.
They didn't really leave a good impression on me at all, in everything they were involved.
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On August 14 2011 21:53 NHY wrote:"It is nonsense to suggest S2CON is blocking [our] participation. If we wanted to participate, we would do so regardless of whatever S2CON's wishes were." There are rumors that S2CON is blocking korean team's participation in foreign scene. However, it's been confirmed that since their creation in Nov, 2010 S2CON has left the decision of participating in foreign events to each team's discretion and have not interfered in any way in this regard since. Original article in Korean: + Show Spoiler +NASL 주장, 사실무근으로 확인 - NASL, 협의회 인지(認知) 잘못에 대해 사과 - 이형섭-최윤상 감독, NASL측 주장 사실무근 스타크래프트2 협의회(이하 협의회)가 '이번 NASL 시즌2에 한국 선수 참가 철회가 협의회와는 무관하다'는 입장을 발표했다. 협의회는 공식 홈페이지를 통해 참가 철회로 인한 분쟁은 각 게임단 자체적으로 진행된 내용이라 해명했다. 이어서 협의회는 NASL로부터 공식적인 내용을 전달하거나 받은 적도 없다고 밝혔다. 이 소식을 접한 NASL측은 “한국에서 진행되는 일을 정확하게 알지 못한다. 하지만, 우린 한국팀들의 공통된 결정을 들었고 첫 계약서에는 ‘스타크래프트2 한국 팀 협의회(SC2 Korean Team Committee)’라고 작성되어 있었다. 이후 계약 때에도 이렇게 작성되어 협의회라고 적은 것이다. 만약, 소수 팀들의 결정이었으면 스타2협의회(S2CON)에 사과하고 싶다”며 자신들의 실수에 사과하는 뜻을 내비쳤다. 하지만, 그는 “김승철(FXO소속, sC)와 MVP팀의 소속 선수들이 NASL에 참가하려 하는데 ‘S2CON’이 출전을 막고 있어 당황하고 있다”는 입장을 밝히며 ‘S2CON’가 NASL에 피해를 주고 있다고 주장했다.
이에 PlayXP는 김승철이 소속되어 있는 FXO의 이형섭 감독과 MVP의 최윤상 감독에게 확인해 본 결과 사실 무근인 것으로 확인됐다. 이형섭 감독은 “김승철 선수 본인이 출전하지 않기로 해 철회 한 것”이라며 “NASL 출전과 관련해 S2CON과 그 어떤 논쟁을 벌인 적이 없다”고 밝혔다. 최윤상 감독 또한 “처음부터 NASL에 출전할 의사가 없었는데 이런 말을 듣게 되어 황당하다. 형제 팀인 ‘compLexity’로부터 NASL 출전 제안을 받은 것은 사실이나, 팀 사정상 힘들어 정중히 거절했다, 또 이 제안은 한국 팀들의 출전 철회 후 온 것이고 NASL로부터 직접적인 교섭은 없었다”고 밝혔다. ‘S2CON’의 참가 저지에 대한 질문에는 “만약, 우리가 출전하고 싶었다면 협의회 의사와는 무관하게 출전할 수 있는데 출전을 저지한다니 웃기는 소리다”며 NASL측의 주장을 반박하기도 했다. 한편, 일각에선 ‘S2CON’이 국내 팀의 해외 진출을 막고 있는 것이란 설이 일고 있지만, S2CON은 지난 해 11월 발족 당시부터 해외 대회 출전 여부는 팀 자율에 맡겼으며 그에 따른 부분에 대해 관여한 바가 전혀 없는 것으로 확인 됐다. 글: 안영훈(ethan@playxp.com)
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
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If Boss withdrew from SC2Con because of 1 person, then there's no reason that all of this couldn't be true from SC2Con's point of view as far as NASL goes. I don't know how NASL managed to piss off every single Korean in the world, but seems like that might be the case.
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On August 14 2011 22:58 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish.
That may very well be, but s2con had nothing to do with this situation as you can read from both s2con and NASL's statement.
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So the players who decided to try to qualify to NASL just had a massive change of heart all at the same time?
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that.
You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either the NASL says that and gets blasted by people assuming they did something horrible like EG since they had no transparency, or they do what they did and people call them unprofessional for outing business partners. Well, I think it was unprofessional to sign contracts then later pull out, and letting the world know this happened isn't unprofessional at all. The rest of the NASL vs Korean Teams vs SC2con vs FXO stuff is the result of language barriers imo.
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On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all.
"It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside.
Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)?
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)?
I know of no other tournament that has exposed details like this, so of course I can't provide sources. But I would pretty much guarantee you that all the major tournaments(MLG, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL) have contracts with players. It'd be outlining things just like NASL talked about, payment schedule, player/organizer requirements, and probably insurance.
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On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 21:53 NHY wrote:"It is nonsense to suggest S2CON is blocking [our] participation. If we wanted to participate, we would do so regardless of whatever S2CON's wishes were." There are rumors that S2CON is blocking korean team's participation in foreign scene. However, it's been confirmed that since their creation in Nov, 2010 S2CON has left the decision of participating in foreign events to each team's discretion and have not interfered in any way in this regard since. Original article in Korean: + Show Spoiler +NASL 주장, 사실무근으로 확인 - NASL, 협의회 인지(認知) 잘못에 대해 사과 - 이형섭-최윤상 감독, NASL측 주장 사실무근 스타크래프트2 협의회(이하 협의회)가 '이번 NASL 시즌2에 한국 선수 참가 철회가 협의회와는 무관하다'는 입장을 발표했다. 협의회는 공식 홈페이지를 통해 참가 철회로 인한 분쟁은 각 게임단 자체적으로 진행된 내용이라 해명했다. 이어서 협의회는 NASL로부터 공식적인 내용을 전달하거나 받은 적도 없다고 밝혔다. 이 소식을 접한 NASL측은 “한국에서 진행되는 일을 정확하게 알지 못한다. 하지만, 우린 한국팀들의 공통된 결정을 들었고 첫 계약서에는 ‘스타크래프트2 한국 팀 협의회(SC2 Korean Team Committee)’라고 작성되어 있었다. 이후 계약 때에도 이렇게 작성되어 협의회라고 적은 것이다. 만약, 소수 팀들의 결정이었으면 스타2협의회(S2CON)에 사과하고 싶다”며 자신들의 실수에 사과하는 뜻을 내비쳤다. 하지만, 그는 “김승철(FXO소속, sC)와 MVP팀의 소속 선수들이 NASL에 참가하려 하는데 ‘S2CON’이 출전을 막고 있어 당황하고 있다”는 입장을 밝히며 ‘S2CON’가 NASL에 피해를 주고 있다고 주장했다.
이에 PlayXP는 김승철이 소속되어 있는 FXO의 이형섭 감독과 MVP의 최윤상 감독에게 확인해 본 결과 사실 무근인 것으로 확인됐다. 이형섭 감독은 “김승철 선수 본인이 출전하지 않기로 해 철회 한 것”이라며 “NASL 출전과 관련해 S2CON과 그 어떤 논쟁을 벌인 적이 없다”고 밝혔다. 최윤상 감독 또한 “처음부터 NASL에 출전할 의사가 없었는데 이런 말을 듣게 되어 황당하다. 형제 팀인 ‘compLexity’로부터 NASL 출전 제안을 받은 것은 사실이나, 팀 사정상 힘들어 정중히 거절했다, 또 이 제안은 한국 팀들의 출전 철회 후 온 것이고 NASL로부터 직접적인 교섭은 없었다”고 밝혔다. ‘S2CON’의 참가 저지에 대한 질문에는 “만약, 우리가 출전하고 싶었다면 협의회 의사와는 무관하게 출전할 수 있는데 출전을 저지한다니 웃기는 소리다”며 NASL측의 주장을 반박하기도 했다. 한편, 일각에선 ‘S2CON’이 국내 팀의 해외 진출을 막고 있는 것이란 설이 일고 있지만, S2CON은 지난 해 11월 발족 당시부터 해외 대회 출전 여부는 팀 자율에 맡겼으며 그에 따른 부분에 대해 관여한 바가 전혀 없는 것으로 확인 됐다. 글: 안영훈(ethan@playxp.com) So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL? I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
They did pass that information to NASL, together, through Mr. Chae, according to NASL.
NASL admitted after S2CON's official statement that they were using the word "S2CON" freely as a group of korean teams.
But they then said S2COn were blocking sC and MVP from participating.
This is contradicted by 1) FXOBoss 2)FXOChoya 3)MVP's coach and 4)ethan from PlayXP's investigation
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On August 14 2011 23:00 SimDawg wrote: If Boss withdrew from SC2Con because of 1 person, then there's no reason that all of this couldn't be true from SC2Con's point of view as far as NASL goes. I don't know how NASL managed to piss off every single Korean in the world, but seems like that might be the case. I think what is more probable there was in the beginning total chaos in communication, then NASL released their statement. That statement (with probably bad (intentionally?) translation) made Koreans feel unjustly accused. Add to it standard psychological reactions of human groups that are under (perceived) attack to lash out and support each other no matter what and you have current situation with half-truths being thrown around and who knows what going behind the scenes. Frankly SC2 politics just became similar to real life politics, and we just have to approach it in the same way of total scepticism towards every party involved. Does not mean some things aren't more probable, but just keep in mind that everybody is probably lying
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On August 14 2011 23:00 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:58 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish. That may very well be, but s2con had nothing to do with this situation as you can read from both s2con and NASL's statement. Frankly at this point there is no reason to believe them anything they say especially as the whole picture that we currently have(very incomplete I admit) seems to make what they say very unlikely. Welcome to standard politics where statements are only about PR not in the slightest about reality.
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On August 14 2011 23:08 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? I know of no other tournament that has exposed details like this, so of course I can't provide sources. But I would pretty much guarantee you that all the major tournaments(MLG, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL) have contracts with players. It'd be outlining things just like NASL talked about, payment schedule, player/organizer requirements, and probably insurance.
I'd like to hear some confirmation of this. As far as I know, you can just sign up for a spot in the MLG open bracket, and I doubt they throw a contract in your face when you show up at the event to take your place in the bracket.
Also, players seem to be free to pull out of other tournaments at any point.
Payment details can be handled after the competition is over and the prize money is won, and besides it's in the organizer's best interest to pay the prize money. Not sure what insurance would a tournament organizer be covering, I don't know how it works in various countries but I really doubt they cover any sort of personal insurance.
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On August 14 2011 23:12 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:00 NHY wrote:On August 14 2011 22:58 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish. That may very well be, but s2con had nothing to do with this situation as you can read from both s2con and NASL's statement. Frankly at this point there is no reason to believe them anything they say especially as the whole picture that we currently have(very incomplete I admit) seems to make what they say very unlikely. Welcome to standard politics where statements are only about PR not in the slightest about reality.
So you don't believe something that both S2CON and NASL are saying to be true?
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On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? Which other big tournament is actually a league that depends on many weeks of players participation without an ability to replace players during that time ?
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On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)?
It doesnt matter if other tournaments have contracts or not. dont you think it would be pretty smart to have contracts in a 3 months tournament? what if all pulled out 1 week before the final and ruined the tournament?
And i think the contract benefits the players alot, because then they have something binding if the prices doesnt get payed etc
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This is just sad. These few weeks, there have been a lot of miscommunication between different parties. I guess the thing we can learn from this is that if any party has any problem or issue, it would be only appropriate to talk to the other concerned party first before posting anything for the public to see.
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It seriously feels like the teams and organizations are run by a bunch of amateurs. They do all kinds of crazy shit, they take other people's players, make shit up, get themselves in all kind of trouble for personal reasons, and just assume things are a certain way when drama begins and start posting shit without knowing what's actually happening.
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