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On August 15 2011 03:22 ftjust wrote:
Imo why would koreans bother to play in NASL when they have to get up in the middle of the night to play? and its really drawn out. And tbh after the first seasons overall was a failure in my eyes i called it that it wouldent get any better.
imo all major events should pay the players to participate since people pay to watch the best people play, i dont pay NASL ticket for a stream that doesnt work
It seems like you have negative feelings about the NASL due to their technical/quality issues and are trying to tie that into Korean playing conditions even though they are not related.
To answer your question about why would the Koreans want to get up int he middle of the night to play. It is simple, NASL has code S prize money and the Koreans did very well in season 1 and during the qualifiers. At least they don't have to fly to America, live here for months only to lose 1 series (possibly to cheese) and leave empty handed as is the case with their own tournament.
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On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school.
Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be:
All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Then the kids claim they're innocent from having thrown tomatoes because Celine said it was the french club.
Imres: its all good. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote:
Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
Spend less time throwing peoples stuff on the floor and more time doing your job.
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On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote:
Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
I wasn't saying something happened. I should've said what "did/didn't happen between NASL and S2CON."
Also, I'm not sure what is your capacity in representing NASL, but I'd suggest sending an email to coaches. It worked for me earlier today.
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I know, SC2 con is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO innocent. Hey, lets take 50% of the spots in NASL, then decide not to play in it. Cmon people, are you freaking serious? Talk about holding NASL for ransom....
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I think I see what's going on..GSL wants to be the premier league in Korea and MLG wants to be the premier league everywhere else..NASL is stuck between a rock and a hard place
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What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled and corrupt.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly.
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On August 15 2011 03:28 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school. Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be: All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Imres: its all good. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
It should be
Some of the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just some of the kids of the french club.
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I talked with Xeris earlier today about this and he said that there have been a lot of problems with communication between all the parties involved. In fact, he isn't exactly sure what parties are involved.
http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/xeris-miscommunication-blame-nasl-s2con-controversy
I also conducted a lengthy interview with him detailing the whole situation from his point of view. I was hoping to hold off publishing it so that I could get the Korean perspective, but so far the Korean teams I have contacted about this situation have declined to reply. I feel obligated to post that interview now so that you can get more details on the situation from NASL's point of view, so expect that on ESFIWorld shortly.
Also, I will try my best to get some information on the Korean side of things, and hopefully I'll have something to post about that later. No guarantees, though.
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On August 15 2011 03:30 Skarmory wrote:
I know, SC2 con is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO innocent. Hey, lets take 50% of the spots in NASL, then decide not to play in it. Cmon people, are you freaking serious? Talk about holding NASL for ransom....
both have failed, and the problem is that NASL failure provided an excuse to SC2con and let them in the position of the last organization vitcimized.
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On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote:
What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly.
That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from.
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On August 15 2011 03:28 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school. Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be: All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club.
Yes, exactly, and the French Club is coming out saying that the French Club did not in any way, told the kids or made a rule saying that "if the concert sucked, throw tomatoes", which they were being accused of, or at least indirectly implied that they were, when all in all, it was just one or two kids started doing it and the rest of the kids saw it and followed based on their own decision.
While clearly still a wrong thing to do, it is still a DIFFERENT matter, which this whole article is trying to tell you and clear up their first accusation.
Now, whether the teams are wrong or right in their decision itself, is a different topic all together, and isn't really what this article is trying to say.
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On August 15 2011 03:23 Xeris wrote:
I don't think I ever said anyone acted unethically or illegally. I just explained why Koreans were leaving the league, and wishing they had told me earlier, simple as that. I mistakenly used the term SC2Con (because I had wrong information), and have apologized for using the name of the entire organization when it was just a few teams operating.
I hope people realized that Xeris have acknowledged that he mistakenly assumed that all the teams that withdrew, were part of SC2Con, and that it was an official response from that body. That has turned out to be untrue.
Not saying whether who's right or wrong, just that people should really read up a lil more before just randomly blasting stuffs.
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I trust the teams more than organisations seeking viewers. NASL has shown to be a fairly unprofessional organization and it doesn't surprise me they are they ones causing the fuss.
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Why are people so eager to play the blame game?
NASL has said they "don't know the exact dynamic of what's going on", SC2CON is "baffled" by what's happened. It's a case of misunderstanding here.
If people like Dr.Sin wishes so much to come up with an "ultimately, they are in the wrong" statement that's so sweeping, they should start pondering the fact that "all men are sinners"...
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This is where I'm missing a piece of information: did any team within sc2con choose to not withdraw (aside from FXO, which is no longer part of sc2con)? My understanding is all the koreans withdrew, in and out of sc2con.
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On August 15 2011 03:33 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote:
What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly. That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from.
Any1 with any brain can see whats going on here.
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On August 15 2011 03:34 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:33 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote:
What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly. That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from. Any1 with any brain can see whats going on here.
Imagination doesn't prove anything sorry for you
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On August 15 2011 03:34 Woizit wrote:
Why are people so eager to play the blame game?
NASL has said they "don't know the exact dynamic of what's going on", SC2CON is "baffled" by what's happened. It's a case of misunderstanding here.
If people like Dr.Sin wishes so much to come up with an "ultimately, they are in the wrong" statement that's so sweeping, they should start pondering the fact that "all men are sinners"...
If you take half the seats in a tournament you qualified for, agreeing to the terms beforehand, and then withdraw, I'm sorry, "all men are sinners" doesn't cut it.
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On August 15 2011 03:32 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:28 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school. Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be: All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Imres: its all good. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It should be Some of the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just some of the kids of the french club.
And in that case, people would say that this reflects badly on the French Club, what kind of people do they let join if this is how they act. Remember when you are a member of whatever organization or club you represent said organization. Its like how the NFL and NBA had player conduct policies in place. They don't want their players giving the leagues a bad name by acting like idiots. So even if SC2Con didn't have anything to do with the actual decision, its still reflects badly on them that their 3 teams acted in a such a manner.
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EPT
