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PlayXP article on NASL, S2CON situation - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
538 CommentsPost a Reply
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Dr.Sin
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1126 Posts
August 14 2011 17:51 GMT
#261
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.
Dr.Sin
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1126 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 17:53:42
August 14 2011 17:53 GMT
#262
On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.


It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable.
Fleebenworth
Profile Joined April 2011
463 Posts
August 14 2011 17:53 GMT
#263
None of this is surprising given the past history of shadiness and prevarication on the part of NASL. A lot of players were pretty dissatisfied with season 1 and the stupidity of their format/scheduling so when that happens you should expect to have to pay a premium to attract the same players to your tournaments when there are so many other great events going on all the time.

Maybe one day people will learn to not trust anything NASL says about anything. Even if they drastically changed/fixed all the problems with their format tomorrow I am not sure it would be enough for players at this point.
esc0bar
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada112 Posts
August 14 2011 17:54 GMT
#264
On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote:
The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
[/b]


Yeah, there probably was no blackmail or threats from sc2con eh? Seems like the cleanest and most legit organisation lately.
NHY
Profile Joined October 2010
1013 Posts
August 14 2011 17:54 GMT
#265
On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote:
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.


Again, no not everyone in S2CON made this decision.

NASL mentioned 5 teams are withdrawing. only 3 of them are in S2CON
Imres
Profile Joined March 2011
515 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 17:55:51
August 14 2011 17:54 GMT
#266
On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote:
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.


We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con.

An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue.

Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work.
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 17:55:49
August 14 2011 17:55 GMT
#267
Keep in mind that Xeris earlier said that NO team manager contacted him directly to say anything, which further puts holes in the story that the teams "independently" withdrew.

TDN3
Profile Joined August 2011
United States81 Posts
August 14 2011 17:55 GMT
#268
On August 15 2011 02:23 Doso wrote:
Yo Koreans, if you don't want to play in our leagues that's fine. But don't expect us to play in yours (GSL) either, hokay?


lol....ur so smart
esc0bar
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada112 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 17:57:27
August 14 2011 17:56 GMT
#269
On August 15 2011 02:54 Imres wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote:
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.


We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con.

An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue.

Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work.



And the only team that wants to pârticipate in NASL that is part of sc2con decided to leave the organisatino following blackmail and threats, simple maths here.

But please feel free to keep the korean penis in your mouth, it must not take a lot of place in any case, see what i did there?
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 14 2011 17:57 GMT
#270
On August 15 2011 02:54 NHY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote:
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.


Again, no not everyone in S2CON made this decision.

NASL mentioned 5 teams are withdrawing. only 3 of them are in S2CON


FXO and TSL quit SC2Con due to problems with them. The only one who pulled out who was not in SC2Con was SlayerS.
NineKOne
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada92 Posts
August 14 2011 17:58 GMT
#271
too much drama. its ruining the simplistic beauty of starcraft.

Blizzard designed the game to be fun with 1 click of the "find match" button. not this bureaucratic non-sense.
"It's over 9000!" -V
Imres
Profile Joined March 2011
515 Posts
August 14 2011 17:59 GMT
#272
On August 15 2011 02:56 esc0bar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 02:54 Imres wrote:
On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote:
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.


We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con.

An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue.

Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work.



And the only team that wants to pârticipate in NASL that is part of sc2con decided to leave the organisatino following blackmail and threats, simple maths here.


That's an other problem, prove from a legal pov that sc2con took this decision and that NASL told the truth when accusing them. They fucked up but ppl don't recognized it I don't know why. And sc2con is bigger than those team, I don't know how the decisions are taken, but it's not even sure that if the statuts were ok that they could have taken this decision in sc2con.

But stay in your world where unknown facts are here to prove your views.
OPL3SA2
Profile Joined April 2011
United States378 Posts
August 14 2011 17:59 GMT
#273
This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team
Playoffs? You're talking about playoffs?
graph1k
Profile Joined December 2010
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 18:04:30
August 14 2011 18:02 GMT
#274
I think it says a lot that Koreans are willing to pay their own way to MLG for a smaller prizepool and more competition rather than get some of their ride payed for at least by NASL...

Yes, 4 players are given a free ride by MLG, but how many Koreans were at the last MLG? Had to have been at least 8, probably more, and more come every time. This suggests NASL is definitely not free of guilt in this issue. More likely both sides deserve a little fault and there was some bad communication.

As someone said earlier though. NASL coming straight to TL with their release seems to me to be a move designed to get the SC2 community on their side and a plea not to believe the other side. Release your press releases on your own website, TL will get the info in due time. This is a community site not your personal press site.

Edit:

On August 15 2011 02:59 OPL3SA2 wrote:
This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team


Wait, what? NASL tried to snipe nobody? NASL has no team, EG is LOOSELY (very very very very much so, and even less so now that Incontrol is gone) tied to NASL. EG tried to get players, not NASL. Korean teams have no reason to punish NASL for that.
Fubi
Profile Joined March 2011
2228 Posts
August 14 2011 18:03 GMT
#275
On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.


It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable.


It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature.

The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
whateverpeeps
Profile Joined August 2011
United States214 Posts
August 14 2011 18:04 GMT
#276
On August 15 2011 02:59 OPL3SA2 wrote:
This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team


NASL didn't try to swipe anyone? If anyone deserves that blame, it's EG. What was NASL supposed to do? Hire people to follow managers around to make sure they're not speaking to any players?

If a team manager chooses to speak to a player directly instead of their manager, it's their fault. If a player chooses to leave a team because of a better offer, it's the player's fault, or the team's fault for not being competitive enough.

Besides, problem easily solved by making players sign contracts saying they're not allowed to quit for a certain period after attending foreign tournaments.

So I highly doubt that's the reason for this mess and if it is, it is wrong and petty and is only harming players over something very stupid.
Fubi
Profile Joined March 2011
2228 Posts
August 14 2011 18:05 GMT
#277
On August 15 2011 02:56 esc0bar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 02:54 Imres wrote:
On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote:
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.


We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con.

An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue.

Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work.



And the only team that wants to pârticipate in NASL that is part of sc2con decided to leave the organisatino following blackmail and threats, simple maths here.

But please feel free to keep the korean penis in your mouth, it must not take a lot of place in any case, see what i did there?


Did you even READ FXO's post? It CLEARLY stated that the post had NOTHING to do with this matter, and that them leaving S2CON was due to other reasons. And it also CLEARLY stated that S2CON did not force them about the NASL situation.
Cel.erity
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4890 Posts
August 14 2011 18:05 GMT
#278
On August 15 2011 02:59 OPL3SA2 wrote:
This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team


What? NASL isn't a team, you're thinking of EG, and that's a completely different subject. Something like that could happen at any foreign tournament, not just the NASL...
We found Dove in a soapless place.
BluePanther
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2776 Posts
August 14 2011 18:06 GMT
#279
Who cares if SC2Con made the decision, the teams made the decision, or the players made the decision?


It's irrelevant, somebody still signed a contract and they didn't play.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-14 18:09:20
August 14 2011 18:07 GMT
#280
On August 15 2011 02:40 thanhbao86 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 15 2011 02:20 Doodsmack wrote:
On August 15 2011 02:05 thanhbao86 wrote:
On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote:
After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue.


What do you suggest they do then ?
You realize TL is a community site right (forum) ? Everyone can post what they want. You suggest mods should check every single new post before allow them to be posted (your posts included and I would love to see your reactions when you know mods block your posts). Is that system really the system that you want, ask yourself that question.
Please think before posting, dont just say stuffs like I want ABC without giving real good solutions because those posts are not contributing they are just demanding and we dont want that.



No actually it would be a pretty simple solution - lock the thread after including a mod edit saying this is only one side of the story and the thread will be reopened once the other side has been added.

Notice how I didn't insult you personally when I wrote that? Take this post as an example for your response.


So then people cant post but still can read and have their own opinions? How is that different from what we have now? You will have both stories when each party releases it (Just different threads, but they are still the first post so it is easy to find). If you care you will read them both. I dont see any problem to realize it is only one sided story in the post.
Basically, It is not TL that is the problem its people thinking is the problem. TL is not a judge, it is just a community site. It is not even a news site. It is not its job to clear the confusion, that job belongs to the parties involved. It is your job to wait for the whole story before jumping on the bandwagon and conclude. If you are confused, dont post and dont involve in it since you dont know. A real solution is that people need to mature the hell up and stop posting the first thing in their mind. PERIOD. TL has been and is still a discussion site, blocking discussion is not a TL thing to do.
I am sorry if you think i insulted you, but your first post has no real solution beside saying tl mods have to do sth, so I stay corrected.




I agree that people need to mature up and not post the first thing on their mind, but that's not going to happen. It is these people's endless speculation and condemnation in the threads that creates a snowball effect. The TL community has a bad side to it, and this is it. Locking the threads, again, would be a pretty simple and harmless solution.
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