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On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves.
Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break.
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Damn, lots of miscommunication going on lately... but I guess its good they are working to resolve it. Hopefully in the future the communication will be better. :S
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On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break.
It's a part of sc2con statuts... Maybe if you've belonged to a collective organization you'd know that.
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dunno what to say but nasl with such actions nasl is killing itself. first the finals were not that what they should have been (regarding to the hype of the league), then the koreans dont participate in the new season and on top pf that they blame sc2con based on a thought that it must be sc2con. dunno if they can maintain their viewers with such things
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Thank you for the translation. It frustrates me that there's no English translation/version of PlayXP. I think it would ease the amount of misunderstandings (such as this), since almost all korean Starcraft news is posted on PlayXP
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On August 15 2011 02:20 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:05 thanhbao86 wrote:On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote:
After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue. What do you suggest they do then ? You realize TL is a community site right (forum) ? Everyone can post what they want. You suggest mods should check every single new post before allow them to be posted (your posts included and I would love to see your reactions when you know mods block your posts). Is that system really the system that you want, ask yourself that question. Please think before posting, dont just say stuffs like I want ABC without giving real good solutions because those posts are not contributing they are just demanding and we dont want that. No actually it would be a pretty simple solution - lock the thread after including a mod edit saying this is only one side of the story and the thread will be reopened once the other side has been added. Notice how I didn't insult you personally when I wrote that? Take this post as an example for your response.
So then people cant post but still can read and have their own opinions? How is that different from what we have now? You will have both stories when each party releases it (Just different threads, but they are still the first post so it is easy to find). If you care you will read them both. I dont see any problem to realize it is only one sided story in the post.
Basically, It is not TL that is the problem its people thinking is the problem. TL is not a judge, it is just a community site. It is not even a news site. It is not its job to clear the confusion, that job belongs to the parties involved. It is your job to wait for the whole story before jumping on the bandwagon and conclude. If you are confused, dont post and dont involve in it since you dont know. A real solution is that people need to mature the hell up and stop posting the first thing in their mind. PERIOD. TL has been and is still a discussion site, blocking discussion is not a TL thing to do.
I am sorry if you think i insulted you, but your first post has no real solution beside saying tl mods have to do sth, so I stay corrected.
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From what I have heard, NASL more then reasonably tried to accommodate the players. I think the koreans wanted a free ride; tickets to US, hotel and expenses in addition to minimium prize earnings. Hardly fair if you ask me. I would like to hear more about the korean complaints, but so far they seem rather petty. They don't want to take a risk competing in a tournament... And then they all, collectively, but individually, decided to withdraw at the same time for the same reasons.
I can definitely understand why NASL understood and reported the situation as they did.
I can understand why money may be tight with korean teams... I don't think any other organization is going to provide any more of a beneficial offer to so many korean players, as NASL has done. There will still be MLG, but 4 players participating in one tournament is not what I would consider "korean and foreigner competition". Its not what most of us want for international esports. This is extremely disappointing and convoluted.
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On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break.
It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
Edit: I'm repeating myself again:
...If all members of the sc2con act in unison...
NO NO NO NO
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Imres: that's exactly the point. If its collective action on part of the teams, as part of a collective organization, then it is ridiculous for anyone to claim to act independently. They're all independent together and saying its sc2con or not is playing semantics, as it doesn't change what they did. The fact and the manner by which they're trying to shift the blame and not acknowledge responsibility for withdrawing from a tournament they qualified for and participated in at the final hour is simply not acceptable.
We're missing a piece of the puzzle because they're not being transparent about who did what and why.
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Why can't we all just speak the same language T.T
It would make all of these Korean-Foreigner issues so much easier to understand and resolve!
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On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:
It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
You don't find it strange that all of the sc2con teams would get together to make a collective decision and then say it wasn't an sc2con decision? Its just ridiculous semantics at this point. They're trying to distract from the fact that they agreed to participate and then withdrew at the final hour.
It doesn't matter if its sc2con or the teams acting individually-but-really-together. It doesn't change the final result.
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On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break. It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
His point is that they're acting in concert, using collective bargaining as a means to coerce NASL into accepting certain demands.
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On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break. It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
Maybe from the fact sc2con seems so full of shit? Look at the post FXO leaving sc2con, blackmail, lies, threats?
Oh I forgot, they don't have the same values over there, you know the whole "korean way to do business"? Based on respect and all that?
Lol, can't even respect their contract with NASL and threaten their own to adhere to the korean way. I'm looking forward to the downfall of korean SC2, will be amazing.
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On August 15 2011 02:46 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break. It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas? His point is that they're acting in concert, using collective bargaining as a means to coerce NASL into accepting certain demands.
That would be one way to look at it.
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On August 15 2011 02:46 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:
It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas? You don't find it strange that all of the sc2con teams would get together to make a collective decision and then say it wasn't an sc2con decision? Its just ridiculous semantics at this point. They're trying to distract from the fact that they agreed to participate and then withdrew at the final hour. It doesn't matter if its sc2con or the teams acting individually-but-really-together. It doesn't change the final result.
Not true
Edit: Do you even know which teams are part of S2CON which aren't?
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On August 15 2011 02:44 Dr.Sin wrote:
Imres: that's exactly the point. If its collective action on part of the teams, as part of a collective organization, then it is ridiculous for anyone to claim to act independently. They're all independent together and saying its sc2con or not is playing semantics, as it doesn't change what they did. The fact and the manner by which they're trying to shift the blame and not acknowledge responsibility for withdrawing from a tournament they qualified for and participated in at the final hour is simply not acceptable.
We're missing a piece of the puzzle because they're not being transparent about who did what and why.
Semantics are really important, it's probably the same people, but the NASL PR guy made a gigantic mistake due to this semantic, ruining his posts before he realized his error. They're talking about serious stuff and he names an organization which isn't implied in this stuff apparently (and that show how they deal with the koreans, don't even know to which organization they're talking about)
Without this failure nobody would have blame SC2Con as an organization for that matter (there is still FXOBoSs stuff) and it would seem that NASL staff knows what they're doing which isn't apparently the case. The koreans made the first bad move (the contracts) ,and then NASL PR give them an excuse to strike back, what they did and put them in an uncomfortable position.
I don't say that there position is good, but currently their strategy his legitimated by this failure.
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How is it not true? All the teams "independently" decided to withdraw.
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At this point, even though we don't have all the facts, I think it's safe to say NASL messed up somewhere down the line. Everyone knew from the beginning that the format didn't make any sense, and it was not accommodating to the Korean players. Secondly, the same format allowed one Korean player to bypass all of that hassle and win the entire tournament doing so. Koreans (and Ret, I'm sure) say: "Why did I bust my ass for 10 weeks meeting your asinine schedule yet someone who committed no more than 4 days to this league was able to go home with $50,000?"
Also, it can be apparent from the Koreans' statements that they did not feel respected in their negotiations, and Xeris' postings on TL regarding the NASL, that he is probably not the most qualified person to be running an organization of this scale. The continual aggressive defense against fans who have complaints about the league, and refusal to admit any fault in his league, would seem to indicate someone who cannot properly handle business negotiations.
People are creating all these weird conspiracy theories about some shady characters in Korea who are convincing the Koreans not to return for season 2. The simplest explanation is that they really don't want to. Do you honestly believe if Sundance was in charge of this league, and the Koreans got to play all their games at reasonable times on their own schedule, that they would still decline to play? Of course not. This is all the NASL's mess, and season 3 will have to undergo radical changes if they want to fix it.
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man I have no ideal who to believe this is crazy
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On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves.
Each team's personal decision could be influenced by other team's as well. Maybe one or two teams did the math, decided that the 3 months of work on a NASL that has made no improvement over previous season is not worth the effort, and then the rest of the teams saw their decision, thought about it for themselves, agrees then withdrew as well.
It is kind of like how at concerts, when you see a few people stand up and clap, you'll eventually see the rest of the audience follow and do the same. Also the same as how riots start. When a few people start rocking cars and breaking windows, more and more people follow suit and eventually it goes out of hand. There is no one collective body that told and made the audience stand up or set up the riot, it is just that other's decisions influence each other.
And this is what S2CON is saying. NASL accused S2CON that the organization itself forced or planned something collectively to prevent the players/team from participating in NASL, and S2CON is just trying to clear up this accusation.
But of course, most of the Korean team's are in good terms with each other. The coaches are friends with each other, and their players often help train with members from another team. It is no surprise that one or two team's decisions can influence others. The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
All in all, regardless of who was right and wrong, it was definitely unprofessional and somewhat childish for NASL to jump the gun and wrote that very biased statement just to present themselves to look like the good guys / victims
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EPT
