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On August 15 2011 02:57 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:54 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote:
If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it. Again, no not everyone in S2CON made this decision. NASL mentioned 5 teams are withdrawing. only 3 of them are in S2CON FXO and TSL quit SC2Con due to problems with them. The only one who pulled out who was not in SC2Con was SlayerS.
FXO and TSL quit S2CON and you don't count them as someone who isn't in S2CON? Also you are forgetting WeMadeFox.
The point is, S2CON is not a substitute name for 7 Korean teams. Korean teams are only part of S2CON, (yes they are vital one but it's not a whole), and those that made this decision are fraction of that.
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Well that clears the water a little bit. Damn, so much misrepresentation and confusion from both sides. I don't even know what to think.
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Imres:
From my perspective, this is what this is about: "You're defaming our organization even though, we, as the members of this organization, chose to do this (with one of our friends, ie SlayerS)".
I'm not trolling, I'm emphasizing that this is intellectual masturbation.
I understand your point about organizations vs members. However, I've yet to see any formal evidence that sc2con is nothing but an informal body to facilitate decision making. Considering the 'intense' discussion that people had re: PuMa and TSL, it is not unreasonable to question whether they even have statutes or anything more than a verbal basis for operating.
The consequences of a semantic difference are far less than those of the actions they're using semantics to distract from: their pulling out of the NASL.
You say this is about a serious matter and yet you're the one approaching it immaturely with personal attacks. Practice what you preach.
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On August 15 2011 03:10 Dr.Sin wrote:
From my perspective, this is what this is about: "You're defaming our organization even though, we, as the members of this organization, chose to do this (with one of our friends, ie SlayerS)".
They are exactly trying to tell you that the "as members of this organization" part is irrelevant. And the fact that they all came to the same conclusion is because NASL itself really isn't worth it anymore.
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On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts.
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On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts.
This thread is not about whether Korean teams acted ethically/legally.
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In this thread and in the others I've seen a lot of comments negatively portraying the NASL and arguments indicating that the Koreans were somehow not treated as well as they should have been. This is very unfair to the NASL.
It is true that having to get up at 3 or 4 am once a week to play your match sucks, and the travel expenses aren't even completely covered unless you place very high but isn't that true of most other tournaments? Consider the GSL, you don't get to play from your home at 4 am, you have to fly to Korea on your own dime, live there for several months, cover your own expenses and unless you get very far in code S you will be leaving with a lot less money than when you arrived.
Imagine if GSL was more like NASL, then Americans and Europeans could play their qualifier matches from home at 4 am, then if they got into code A they could play those matches from home at 4 am, and then if they made it into code S it would have to fly to Korea but the whole thing would be condensed into 3 days so they could show up, play their matches and fly home without racking up tons of living expenses. If that was the case there would probably be a lot more international players trying to participate in the GSL. Idra lived in Korea for a while, did he ever demand that the GSL pays for his living expenses while in Korea?
Also why are there no complaints from European and American players? In S.Korea everything is located in one city so maybe they don't realize even most players in the United States would have to pay for plane tickets and hotel expenses in order to play in tournaments within the United States.
Both tournaments are set up the way they are for a reason. It is fine to make a value judgement and determine that it is not in a player's or team's best interest to participate in a given tournament. The hate towards the NASL however is ridiculous.
All the talk of prize money also leads to another point. In another article the Korean's expressed anger that foreign tournaments are "using" Korean players to make money. My response would be "yeah so?". All tournaments including the GSL and MLG "use" players to make money, that is how business works. The prize money is not supposed to make it worth while for the teams. Prize money is a reward for individual players who do well. If esports gets big then the money will not come from prizes but from sponsorships which will fund expenses and players/coaches salaries. Sponsors will want to be represented in as many tournaments as possible, and having a good showing and a large fan base will make it easier for players and teams to attract sponsors. Are they going to cut off their nose to spite their face?
Playing in the NASL may be an overall expense for the Korean teams but it could yield long term results. My impression is that the Koreans are feeling threatened by the growing international presence. This is based on the comments in the TiG article and also sentiments expressed by coach Lee following the EG/Puma incident.
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NHY: This thread is about the koreans' response to the accusations they/sc2con acted unethically/illegally.
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On August 15 2011 03:19 Dr.Sin wrote:
NHY: This thread is about the koreans' response to the accusations they/sc2con acted unethically/illegally.
Regarding the contracts, stop twisting the truth
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Imo why would koreans bother to play in NASL when they have to get up in the middle of the night to play? and its really drawn out. And tbh after the first seasons overall was a failure in my eyes i called it that it wouldent get any better.
imo all major events should pay the players to participate since people pay to watch the best people play, i dont pay NASL ticket for a stream that doesnt work
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I'm twisting the truth how? Seriously, I'm going by what I understand of this situation. I'm not being disingenuous.
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I don't think I ever said anyone acted unethically or illegally. I just explained why Koreans were leaving the league, and wishing they had told me earlier, simple as that. I mistakenly used the term SC2Con (because I had wrong information), and have apologized for using the name of the entire organization when it was just a few teams operating.
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On August 15 2011 03:23 Dr.Sin wrote:
I'm twisting the truth how?
You didn't mention the context because in FXO case the answer seems to be yes (and imo it is), in this one, the answer is that the NASL screwed up regarding sc2con responsability (and PR generally)
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Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON.
Edit: Or are you in the wrong thread? From this one? Korean teams withdraw from NASL
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I believed the context was understood since we've been at this for a while now.
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On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts.
I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about.
This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school.
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What IS sc2con anyway? I had never heard of them before this ^^
All I know it is some organization that teams may or may not belong in.
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On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote:
Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON.
Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
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On August 15 2011 03:25 Dr.Sin wrote:
I believed the context was understood since we've been at this for a while now.
Ok my bad, but with the two possibilities I really tought you were leaving this field open on purpose.
I apologize 
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imo the only saving grace about the NASL was its Grand Finals(live), and that was mainly due to the Koreans players, Kr vs Kr or Kr vs Foreigners match up, and especially the awesome finals, with Puma.
To me it says alot there always seems to be controversies around the NASL. There are many other smaller (prize money/player number wise) tournaments internationally that have been attended by Koreans with much enthusiasm, yet only the NASL have face so much problems and issues with the Koreans. That's rather telling, personally. Format? Treatment? Expectations? Something is not right.
Although I wish the Kr teams to be more open about what they're doing, I really hope they get their well deserved international sponsors and exposures.
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EPT
