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@tripper688: Yeah, I'd be pissed off too if I was in BoxeR or any other ro16er's (the ones that never made it past) position. They played an arduous amount of games online, ace their group stages and finally make it to the ro16 only to lose so quickly in a best of 3, all the while lagging like hell.
Having the ro16 be either a best of 5 or doing something similar to MLG's extended series would have worked out a lot better for both parties, as the players actually get second chances if they mess up badly early on (thus allowing for them to stay longer in the actual tournament) and NASL would have gotten more viewers to tune in due to the fans' favorites still playing (not to mention they'd have more time to fix production errors and such).
The main problem with NASL was how they were so shoddy and rural with their production and match scheduling. They could've followed MLG's dual stream cast too, so that there wouldn't be too long of a wait between matches.
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On August 13 2011 08:27 TheSavageNation wrote:
They signed the contract in good faith in the NASL that they would change their ways, their horrible production quality, the latency problems, and much more complaints.
Why did SlayerS team + Boxer leave the NASL before this debacle even happened?
Who is a better judge of esports, you or Boxer?
I think the latter.
Lol "signed the contract in good faith" that's a new one.
So wherever you come from, a contract isn't a binding agreement, it's just some piece of paper you throw around to look pretty?
I have nothing at all against the SlayerS team because despite everything they may or may not think about NASL, they managed to muster enough professionalism to withdraw BEFORE the games had begun.
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On August 13 2011 08:21 KanoCoke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:15 AllHailCommonSense wrote:On August 13 2011 08:13 KanoCoke wrote:
@tripper688: Oh yeah, I remember reading about BoxeR and crew saying they weren't going to US tournaments for a bit via Twitter. I thought it was more on the fact that they spent so much money travelling to the US for MLG Columbus (MMA's trip), NASL season 1 (BoxeR's trip) and MLG Anaheim (BoxeR, MMA, Ganzi, and Alicia's trip), and didn't want their players (specifically Ryung, MMA and Ganzi) to get exhausted in between trips as they still haven't lost in the GSL Code A/S.
After all, it's not good for players to not be in tip-top shape when every match in the GSL is much more important for them. Weren't all their travel expenses covered by MLG for MLG Anaheim? IIRC it was plane fair and accomodation only. Public transportation, food, and personal shopping is all on SlayerS' side. Which is a fair deal, as having more than that seems a little too much.
No, I just rechecked it. BoxeR and MMA were sponsored as part of the exchange by MLG which covered Flight+Room I think. Ganzi and Alicia went on their own/team dime. Which I guess is obvious to me now remembering that they were not seeded into pool play.
On August 13 2011 08:22 jyLee wrote:
If you want the best, you best pay like it. Do you pay Peyton Manning and some scrub 2nd string QB the same amount of money to come out to an event? What is this retarded line of thinking that everyone needs to be treated 100% evenly. This isnt grade school anymore and better players deserve to be comped more to make it worthwhile for them or they can spend their time elsewhere that would be more profitable. NASL clearly benefits from Koreans coming over with higher viewership but they would rather pocket that extra loot rather than making sure Koreans can come over with minimal out of pocket costs.
$2000 is not enough to cover travel, hotel, food, travel time, and the risk of negative effects on performance in GSL that almost always occur after koreans have to travel to foreign tournaments. Foreign tournaments like MLG are unique and can afford to offer less because they have a direct link to GSL. An easier path to Code S for korean players makes it worthwhile for them to pay out of their own pockets to come over. NASL needs to wake up and make sure Koreans are part of their tournament or they around bound to lose considerable viewership and interest.
It's an interest stance to take. I kind of made a joke about you get what you pay for earlier but yea, if eSports does follow in the footsteps of traditional sports...I can't see why this would be too out of line, as hard as it might be for foreign fans to agree with. In most things, fan favorites and the elite get paid more than the average. Unless it's going to be like poker where everyone buys in to a pool and plays for that. Although some might say that onus falls on the team to pay their players what they're worth...Could also say tournaments should take into account quality of the players and the possible costs and set up contracts accordingly.
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On August 13 2011 08:33 TheSavageNation wrote:
They left the NASL because it was a horrible tournament, it's been a mess since day 1.
And Boxer is a far better judge than you when it comes to esports, that's a given.
I think i'll take his opinion over yours.
If he says the NASL is a bad tournament, then it is.
And so if it was so obvious (according to you) that the NASL was going to be a bad tournament for KR teams, why couldn't the others withdraw before the event started? I'm sorry but no matter how you cut it, the KR teams did not act professionally at all.
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Anyone noticed how this thread is filled with brand new accounts arguing against each other endlessly?
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Many, many threads are like that on TL now. It is annoying.
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The weird thing is, there're sockpuppets from both sides. I don't get how'd that happen.
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On August 13 2011 08:33 TheSavageNation wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:31 AllHailCommonSense wrote:On August 13 2011 08:27 TheSavageNation wrote:
They signed the contract in good faith in the NASL that they would change their ways, their horrible production quality, the latency problems, and much more complaints.
Why did SlayerS team + Boxer leave the NASL before this debacle even happened?
Who is a better judge of esports, you or Boxer?
I think the latter. Lol "signed the contract in good faith" that's a new one. So wherever you come from, a contract isn't a binding agreement, it's just some piece of paper you throw around to look pretty? I have nothing at all against the SlayerS team because despite everything they may or may not think about NASL, they managed to muster enough professionalism to withdraw BEFORE the games had begun. Dodging the question. They left the NASL because it was a horrible tournament, it's been a mess since day 1. And Boxer is a far better judge than you when it comes to esports, that's a given. I think i'll take his opinion over yours. If he says the NASL is a bad tournament, then it is. 10+ years of Pro-gaming experience, a fan club of 600,000+, and world renown. And a beautiful wife. You lack common sense, my man.
You don't get it. If they thought they tourney was bad fine. That's their right. Nobody is faulting them for that. What people have a problem with is the fact that they signed CONTRACTS to participate in NASL, went thru all the qualifiers, let NASL begin filming matches and THEN decided to pull out. If the tourney was that poor to begin with why sign the contracts? Look at it like this, if lets say Huk signed a contract to compete in GSL and after the tourney started decided to say I don't like the way its being run and left, you would be crying bloody murder.
(I just picked Huk at random, 1st name that popped into my head)
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At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what the supposed justification for SC2Con's antics is, all this will do is get more KR players signed on foreign teams who CAN actually provide them with sustenance and pay for them to attend international events with larger prize pools.
GSL is nice but it's nowhere near enough to support the talent in KR.
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On August 13 2011 08:27 Takezou wrote:
It seems like a very obvious question (as in I hope they did) but did NASL ask the participants what they wanted changed in season 2? Wondering if they had a process where they did this right after season 1.
That's a moot point. Don't sign a contract you don't like because you're bound by it and there is no obligation for the event organizers to change the contract afterward because you don't like it. As for contract times vs qualifiers, qualifiers are not binding. Contracts came almost a month after that. As much as it would have screwed NASL up, they had every right to pull out during that month. Heck, if they don't hand in the contracts and try to negotiate, they would have every right to pull out whenever the hell they pleased which is what I thought happened until NASL posted to the contrary.
On August 13 2011 08:27 TheSavageNation wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:25 AllHailCommonSense wrote:On August 13 2011 08:22 jyLee wrote:
If you want the best, you best pay like it. If you sign a contract, you best honor it. If they didn't like the money, they should have negotiated beforehand. Trying to weasel their way around a week after they signed is very unprofessional. They signed the contract in good faith in the NASL that they would change their ways, their horrible production quality, the latency problems, and much more complaints.Why did SlayerS team + Boxer leave the NASL before this debacle even happened? Who is a better judge of esports, you or Boxer? I think the latter.
Moot point, that's not how contracts work. And even though BoxeR had the same problems with NASL, he did the right thing by just not signing the contract and telling the NASL no thanks. No one is saying NASL is awesome or that the Koreans shouldn't have felt wronged from Season 1. That's not an excuse to breach contracts- If there was no withdrawal clause, they can't pull out after committing.
On August 13 2011 08:33 TheSavageNation wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:31 AllHailCommonSense wrote:On August 13 2011 08:27 TheSavageNation wrote:
They signed the contract in good faith in the NASL that they would change their ways, their horrible production quality, the latency problems, and much more complaints.
Why did SlayerS team + Boxer leave the NASL before this debacle even happened?
Who is a better judge of esports, you or Boxer?
I think the latter. Lol "signed the contract in good faith" that's a new one. So wherever you come from, a contract isn't a binding agreement, it's just some piece of paper you throw around to look pretty? I have nothing at all against the SlayerS team because despite everything they may or may not think about NASL, they managed to muster enough professionalism to withdraw BEFORE the games had begun. Dodging the question. They left the NASL because it was a horrible tournament, it's been a mess since day 1. And Boxer is a far better judge than you when it comes to esports, that's a given. I think i'll take his opinion over yours. If he says the NASL is a bad tournament, then it is. 10+ years of Pro-gaming experience, a fan club of 600,000+, and world renown. And a beautiful wife. You lack common sense, my man.
No actually, you lack common sense. You don't understand how contracts work. Signing a contract is not about good faith, signing a contract is about AGREEING TO WHAT IS ON THE PAPER. Whether or not they had other discussions about changing certain things and addressing certain grievances becomes irrelevant in the sense that once the contract is signed, the players/teams are bound to the terms of the contract. That's all. Note, not even BoxeR pulled this contract stunt. He (along with SlayerS) know how contracts work. That's why they didn't sign one to play in season 2.
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Where are/were the terms of the contract?
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I'm cool with this. Hopefully we see more foreign teams putting Koreans on their teams now :D
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On August 13 2011 08:39 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:33 TheSavageNation wrote:On August 13 2011 08:31 AllHailCommonSense wrote:On August 13 2011 08:27 TheSavageNation wrote:
They signed the contract in good faith in the NASL that they would change their ways, their horrible production quality, the latency problems, and much more complaints.
Why did SlayerS team + Boxer leave the NASL before this debacle even happened?
Who is a better judge of esports, you or Boxer?
I think the latter. Lol "signed the contract in good faith" that's a new one. So wherever you come from, a contract isn't a binding agreement, it's just some piece of paper you throw around to look pretty? I have nothing at all against the SlayerS team because despite everything they may or may not think about NASL, they managed to muster enough professionalism to withdraw BEFORE the games had begun. Dodging the question. They left the NASL because it was a horrible tournament, it's been a mess since day 1. And Boxer is a far better judge than you when it comes to esports, that's a given. I think i'll take his opinion over yours. If he says the NASL is a bad tournament, then it is. 10+ years of Pro-gaming experience, a fan club of 600,000+, and world renown. And a beautiful wife. You lack common sense, my man. You don't get it. If they thought they tourney was bad fine. That's their right. Nobody is faulting them for that. What people have a problem with is the fact that they signed CONTRACTS to participate in NASL, went thru all the qualifiers, let NASL begin filming matches and THEN decided to pull out. If the tourney was that poor to begin with why sign the contracts? Look at it like this, if lets say Huk signed a contract to compete in GSL and after the tourney started decided to say I don't like the way its being run and left, you would be crying bloody murder. (I just picked Huk at random, 1st name that popped into my head)
Didn't IdrA do something like that by dropping out of GSL immediately before a season started? And afterwards when Rain pulled a similar stunt, he was promptly handed a 2 season ban from GOM?
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On August 13 2011 08:44 TooL wrote:
Where are/were the terms of the contract?
Mmmh unless the contract allowed for withdrawal after signing if further negotiations weren't met...I don't think it would really make a difference? And I don't see why such a clause would be in that contract in the first place.
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On August 13 2011 08:33 TheSavageNation wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:31 AllHailCommonSense wrote:On August 13 2011 08:27 TheSavageNation wrote:
They signed the contract in good faith in the NASL that they would change their ways, their horrible production quality, the latency problems, and much more complaints.
Why did SlayerS team + Boxer leave the NASL before this debacle even happened?
Who is a better judge of esports, you or Boxer?
I think the latter. Lol "signed the contract in good faith" that's a new one. So wherever you come from, a contract isn't a binding agreement, it's just some piece of paper you throw around to look pretty? I have nothing at all against the SlayerS team because despite everything they may or may not think about NASL, they managed to muster enough professionalism to withdraw BEFORE the games had begun. Dodging the question. They left the NASL because it was a horrible tournament, it's been a mess since day 1. And Boxer is a far better judge than you when it comes to esports, that's a given. I think i'll take his opinion over yours. If he says the NASL is a bad tournament, then it is. 10+ years of Pro-gaming experience, a fan club of 600,000+, and world renown. And a beautiful wife. You lack common sense, my man.
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Whether or not NASL is a horrible tournament is NOT the topic. The topic is Koreans withdrawing from said tournament at the last second, after playing the preliminary matches, and after signing contracts in which they agreed to participate. This has caused NASL season 2 to be delayed because new players are having to be found to replace all of the Korean drop-outs and entire league is having to be rescheduled because of SC2con's actions.
The topic at hand is that the Koreans should have brought these issues up before it was too late. If they weren't going to play they should have notified NASL before they signed contracts and before they played the preliminary matches. It would have been unfortunate, but it would have been manageable. SC2con's actions have disrupted not only the NASL's schedule, but every single player as well that already had their matches scheduled. In contrast, Boxer did it the right way. He didn't like the tourney so he withdrew from Season 2 before signing a contract and before it affected the entire organization of the NASL.
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I love the discrepancy between how KR teams think they should be treated like superstars but at the end of the day they can't afford to pay travel fare for their players. How ridiculous, really. If you're superstars, then why is your team so desperate for sponsors and money?
Oh yeah, that's right, because you're not actually superstars in your own country and not that many people care about SC2. Sounds like maybe they should be a little more lenient with foreign organizations.
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On August 13 2011 08:44 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 08:39 Slider954 wrote:On August 13 2011 08:33 TheSavageNation wrote:On August 13 2011 08:31 AllHailCommonSense wrote:On August 13 2011 08:27 TheSavageNation wrote:
They signed the contract in good faith in the NASL that they would change their ways, their horrible production quality, the latency problems, and much more complaints.
Why did SlayerS team + Boxer leave the NASL before this debacle even happened?
Who is a better judge of esports, you or Boxer?
I think the latter. Lol "signed the contract in good faith" that's a new one. So wherever you come from, a contract isn't a binding agreement, it's just some piece of paper you throw around to look pretty? I have nothing at all against the SlayerS team because despite everything they may or may not think about NASL, they managed to muster enough professionalism to withdraw BEFORE the games had begun. Dodging the question. They left the NASL because it was a horrible tournament, it's been a mess since day 1. And Boxer is a far better judge than you when it comes to esports, that's a given. I think i'll take his opinion over yours. If he says the NASL is a bad tournament, then it is. 10+ years of Pro-gaming experience, a fan club of 600,000+, and world renown. And a beautiful wife. You lack common sense, my man. You don't get it. If they thought they tourney was bad fine. That's their right. Nobody is faulting them for that. What people have a problem with is the fact that they signed CONTRACTS to participate in NASL, went thru all the qualifiers, let NASL begin filming matches and THEN decided to pull out. If the tourney was that poor to begin with why sign the contracts? Look at it like this, if lets say Huk signed a contract to compete in GSL and after the tourney started decided to say I don't like the way its being run and left, you would be crying bloody murder. (I just picked Huk at random, 1st name that popped into my head) Didn't IdrA do something like that by dropping out of GSL immediately before a season started? And afterwards when Rain pulled a similar stunt, he was promptly handed a 2 season ban from GOM?
I don't know Tripper, wasn't following the scene that closely back then, so I'm not gonna say yes or no.
And as a side note Trip, kinda funny how when this whole story broke we were arguing with each other and now we are sorta of on the same side. Full circle indeed lol
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On August 13 2011 08:48 AllHailCommonSense wrote:
I love the discrepancy between how KR teams think they should be treated like superstars but at the end of the day they can't afford to pay travel fare for their players. How ridiculous, really. If you're superstars, then why is your team so desperate for sponsors and money?
Oh yeah, that's right, because you're not actually superstars in your own country and not that many people care about SC2. Sounds like maybe they should be a little more lenient with foreign organizations.
I don't think that's their mindset at all...It's more like they got shafted season 1 and are looking for something better to sweeten the deal for season 2...and when they didn't get it, they pulled that contract stunt. Most of the players and teams that are having issues with NASL aren't having issues because NASL isn't treating them like superstars. They are having issues with NASL because they got a really raw deal that wound up negatively affecting their teams and players last season. It's understandable from their point of view to want something more this time around and maybe even drive a hard bargain to get reparations for the wrongs in season 1 but contract shenanigans were not the way to do it.
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EPT
