EPT[July] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 3
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
The Korean PvT isn't too startling. Protoss has always been the least represented race in Korea and outside of MC has had the least success. The Korean BW playstyles simply fits so much better with terran and zerg while I see protoss as more of a wc3 race, and Korea was never truly behind WC3. If this had Chinese statistics I'm sure the balance would be quite different. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Gsl are being very clever and good for them. Other leagues need to start removing xelnaga, crevasse, shattered, if they want to keep T in check. It's funny how Terran complain how Zerg may be overpowered when the matchup has been Terran favored (statistically) since forever. Terran players feel weak when the balance is near 50%. As for Protoss, 1-1-1 eww. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On August 07 2011 09:51 zeru wrote: Looks like the terran buff (new BFH icon) really made the difference. Also korea has a ton of amazing terrans while they dont have that many good protoss. International graph which has a bigger sample size still looks quite good. Korea does have some amazing terrans. But maybe Korea also has amazing protoss players but we just simply don't see it because at that level of play terran is just crushing their faces. It's funny, I'm not as bothered as much by Protoss being weak as I am by people telling me how OP it is. That's the way I feel too :D. I'm actually glad to know that if a Protoss pro wins a series he actually is the better player. And I just don't understand why it's widely believed that Protoss is OP and we are hated for playing it. Most players played the race since the beta so it's not like they intended to pick the "imba race". I do believe that Marine/Banshee/Tank is a bit too powerful. From what I saw at the GSL, it gives pretty much a 90% winrate for TvP. Only games I've seen where Protoss wins while Terran is doing this is if Protoss void ray all ins and it kicks in before Terran's all in timing or if Protoss's micro is just way better than Terran's. Doesn't seem very right to blind counter a possible all in with another all in. And the difference of winrate in TvP is high enough that we can call the matchup imbalanced, or at least way in favor of T metagame-wise. It doesn't even fit on the graph and P has 38% winrate, are you kidding me? The game is very unlikely to be patched right now I would say, so we will have to watch how things turn out and how pros deal with it before HotS. | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On August 07 2011 09:49 isleyofthenorth wrote: lol but zerg was NEVER ahead in a WHOLE year. you dont you get that? Well I suppose that you're referring to the international graph, which has a much larger population. The fact that zerg was never ahead means that they were either never overpowered, or that there was never an abnormally high proportion of really good zergs in relation to players of other races. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 07 2011 09:49 isleyofthenorth wrote: lol but zerg was NEVER ahead in a WHOLE year. you dont you get that? So why does it matter that the matchup was unfair a year ago when it's getting close to even now? TvP is definitely the most concerning matchup as it stands right now, at least based on the Korean statistics. | ||
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EtohEtoh
Canada669 Posts
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:14 setzer wrote: The PvZ statistics are the most surprising to me. Before the infestor buff I would have thought zergs were having a much more difficult time taking games off of protoss than those statistics show. It looks at though zerg was actually starting to equalize the matchup and then the infestor buff through it out of wack again. Did Blizzard react too fast in buffing zerg? The Korean PvT isn't too startling. Protoss has always been the least represented race in Korea and outside of MC has had the least success. The Korean BW playstyles simply fits so much better with terran and zerg while I see protoss as more of a wc3 race, and Korea was never truly behind WC3. If this had Chinese statistics I'm sure the balance would be quite different. Yeah, I think thats the thing Incontrol was talking about previously with SOTG if I remember correctly, that ZvP was getting pretty balanced even before the infestor buff - and now its no doubt a pretty difficult matchup. man, Moon & Lyn really should have played protoss T_T They'd do so much better!! I love Moon to death, but I hate him for picking zerg, can you imagine what he'd do with blink stalkers?? o_O | ||
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Philipd122
Australia776 Posts
Then.... | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:06 Stress wrote: Keep in mind the Protoss in Korea only have a few outstanding players, unlike the other 2 races, and the marine/tank/raven timing is ridiculously good. I also think that the longer games in TvP are decide by good EMPs, wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of change to it. I really disagree with the whole "Protoss players are bad in general, only a few are good." Maybe it's not they're bad, but the race is limiting their potential? I mean I watched Byun play Protoss in GSL and he did horrible. The next season he switched to Terran and guess what? Code A finals. Whenever I watch MC play, he has INSTANT reaction to Terran drops and Baneling drops. That's ridiculously sharp. Whenever I watch other players, a lot of them do not even respond until the marines start shooting. You seriously can't have 1/3 of the world playing and say that all of them are bad players. | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:21 koolaid1990 wrote: Protoss players have trouble because protoss players suck. I mean think about it, MC is the sole person to have made the statement "protoss is op". Now that MC has been out of korea for a while, people can't be influenced by his all mighty builds. An example is when MC DOMINATED july in pvz with the 6 gate build which then became popularized, then protoss was overpowered in zvp. But MC went on a break for a while, zergs learned how to use infestors, then zerg is now favored. Its simply because protoss players suck, not cuz toss sucks. 1 guy influences the whole chart fyi, like marineking's 2 rax build that favored terran in tvz by ALOT after the finals. The last sentence is an important point. In the korean graphs, there aren't nearly as many games, so you can almost tell the race of each month's tournament winner simply by looking at the graph. This effect is magnified by the invention of new builds, of course. | ||
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x2fst
1272 Posts
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isleyofthenorth
Austria894 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:08 awesomoecalypse wrote: They undoubtedly have some influence, but should they somehow be ignored because they're good. Should we ignore MC's results when evaluating Toss? If a race's best player is capable of dominating the way Nestea does, then thats useful to know for balance purposes, because it means that at the very highest skill level we can at the very least say the race is not UP. Like, towards the end of Savior's peak he was really the only Zerg stomping everybody, but simply because he was kicking everyone's ass, no one would ever try to claim Zerg was UP in any way (until Bisu showed up, but thats a different story). i think you should kinda ignore mc yeah. there are just so many terrans code S and especially code A that wouldnt in my opinion if the played p or z | ||
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akaname
United Kingdom599 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Protoss players have trouble because protoss players suck. I mean think about it, MC is the sole person to have made the statement "protoss is op". Now that MC has been out of korea for a while, people can't be influenced by his all mighty builds. Uh, you realize MC hasn't missed a single GSL right? The only times he has been "out of Korea" are for specific tournaments, and then only when the GSL wasn't running or he'd already been eliminated. And its not like he's been dominating either--that frikking tank-raven all-in has killed him a shitload of times too. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Whenever I watch MC play, he has INSTANT reaction to Terran drops and Baneling drops. That's ridiculously sharp. Whenever I watch other players, a lot of them do not even respond until the marines start shooting. Exactly, his minimap awareness, reflexes and overall mechanics are just insane, you can't expect that level of play of all players, and if you honestly look at all the TvT between top terrans, they have actually a "human" reaction time to drops but it doesn't punish them as harshly as it does in PvT (well until BFH appeared anyway ;D). I still think that protoss needs an active units for harass, we don't have drops, phoenix are ridiculously APM-intensive for how easy/hard they are to handle, DTs are kind of a one-trick poney. And I feel like there is a misconception that "terrans and zergs have better multitasking than protosses" but it's just that we don't have any units to multitask with, and people don't realize that defending drops, run-bys and multi-pronged attacks is actually much harder than executing them. That's why MC vs Losira at MLG or MC vs Puma on Terminus at NASL were so impressive. | ||
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akaname
United Kingdom599 Posts
On August 07 2011 10:37 ZenithM wrote: Exactly, his minimap awareness, reflexes and overall mechanics are just insane, you can't expect that level of play of all players, and if you honestly look at all the TvT between top terrans, they have actually a "human" reaction time to drops but it doesn't punish them as harshly as it does in PvT (well until BFH appeared anyway ;D). I still think that protoss needs an active units for harass, we don't have drops, phoenix are ridiculously APM-intensive for how easy/hard they are to handle, DTs are kind of a one-trick poney. And I feel like there is a misconception that "terrans and zergs have better multitasking than protosses" but it's just that we don't have any units to multitask with, and people don't realize that defending drops, run-bys and multi-pronged attacks is actually much harder than to execute them. That's why MC vs Losira at MLG or MC vs Puma on Terminus at NASL were so impressive. just checking... you know Dustin Browder said they were look at a a dedicated marauder harassment unit for protoss for HotS? | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
Exceelllleeeennnnnnntttt. | ||
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