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[July] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Hypemeup
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden2783 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:07:37
August 07 2011 07:06 GMT
#241
Well, these graphs are useless for reading balance, considering there has been no patches.

Its that god damn 1-1-1 messing up the stats.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
August 07 2011 07:06 GMT
#242
Hmm, at first the discussion was quite reasonable, but now this thread has turned into a "wtf terran OP ololol" fest and how hard it is to use protoss spells and whatnot. Please stay rational, you can only tell so much about balance from stats like these. The best we can do as Protoss is whine about global builds with a confirmed high kill count like the 1-1-1 (*wink*).

+ Show Spoiler +
I wonder what kind of new unit Terran will be able to incorporate in their one base allins in HotS. :D
dooraven
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia2820 Posts
August 07 2011 07:08 GMT
#243
On August 07 2011 15:58 repEAT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 15:57 Yew wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:54 repEAT wrote:
Someone should re run these without MC, Nestea, and MVP. Should get a better feel for the average pro by removing the outliers.

Then Protoss would be doing even worse >_>

Not necessarily. Protoss gets a ton of wins from MC, but Nestea and MVP give them a lot of losses as well.


Nestea? Sure, MVP? No.

The removal of MC would be devastating to Protoss since Terran has still have Polt/Bomber/other insanely good TvP and Zerg still have Losira/Coca who have very great ZvP. Protoss has.....?
Go go Alliance.
illumn
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand437 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:11:50
August 07 2011 07:10 GMT
#244
EDIT
Why am I arguing about people arguing? I don't know. Consider me out of the argument.
repEAT
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States45 Posts
August 07 2011 07:10 GMT
#245
On August 07 2011 16:08 dooraven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 15:58 repEAT wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:57 Yew wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:54 repEAT wrote:
Someone should re run these without MC, Nestea, and MVP. Should get a better feel for the average pro by removing the outliers.

Then Protoss would be doing even worse >_>

Not necessarily. Protoss gets a ton of wins from MC, but Nestea and MVP give them a lot of losses as well.


Nestea? Sure, MVP? No.

The removal of MC would be devastating to Protoss since Terran has still have Polt/Bomber/other insanely good TvP and Zerg still have Losira/Coca who have very great ZvP. Protoss has.....?

That's kindof the point...I'm not saying it would improve protoss winrate. But if excluding MC drops protoss to like 25% or something, then that's saying a lot more.
teehee
Yew
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States940 Posts
August 07 2011 07:10 GMT
#246
On August 07 2011 16:08 dooraven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 15:58 repEAT wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:57 Yew wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:54 repEAT wrote:
Someone should re run these without MC, Nestea, and MVP. Should get a better feel for the average pro by removing the outliers.

Then Protoss would be doing even worse >_>

Not necessarily. Protoss gets a ton of wins from MC, but Nestea and MVP give them a lot of losses as well.


Nestea? Sure, MVP? No.

The removal of MC would be devastating to Protoss since Terran has still have Polt/Bomber/other insanely good TvP and Zerg still have Losira/Coca who have very great ZvP. Protoss has.....?

Yeah, MC pretty much IS protoss. Puzzle and him are basically the two protoss hopes. Sure, Hongun/Anypro can get deep, but would you really call them the best in their race?
Executor1
Profile Joined April 2011
1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:14:37
August 07 2011 07:12 GMT
#247
On August 07 2011 16:05 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 16:03 illumn wrote:
On August 07 2011 16:01 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:56 Inori wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:54 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:52 Inori wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:50 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:48 Inori wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:32 nt-rAven wrote:
no he is not the only one in the world to be able to do that feedback easiest spell to use in the game or up there.

FB: 9 Range
EMP: 13 Range

FB: single target
EMP: AoE

FB: expensive T3 tech unit
EMP: T1.5 unit

FB: HT very slow; not that hard to spot unit.
EMP: Ghost can cloak. Run speed is same as rest of the army, so gets hidden easly between MM ball.

you were saying?


EMP actually has 10 range. Please don't make Protoss players look bad by posting blatant misinformation...

Sorry, it's actually 12.
10 range + 2 from AoE. Please look into stuff before trying to make others look bad.


No, it's 10. AoE is different from range, so nice try, but I know what I'm talking about. If you want to talk about true range, then sure, but typically, when people talk about range, they don't factor in AoE. Either way, you were giving EMP too much range, and it looks bad when you're trying to make an argument for Protoss.

??? wtf are you talking about?
With HT I can hit Ghost with FB from maximum 9 range.
With Ghost I can hit HT with EMP from maximum 12 range.

Just because it's not written directly in-game doesn't mean it's not there, lol.


Here's the problem. I pointed out blatant misinformation in your post, and you retaliate by trying to nitpick semantics with my post. Check out liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/EMP

See that box in the upper right? Range: 10. What did I say in my post? EMP has 10 range. I never said that EMP has 10 true/maximum range, and if I said that, I would indeed be wrong. But I didn't say that.


This is a stupid argument. He didn't say it had a cast range of 13 [sic] either. You are just nitpicking at each other while saying the exact same thing.


If he had said EMP had 12 range, I would have understood what he meant, since it's reasonable to say that a 10-range AoE attack with a radius of 2 has 12 effective range. But he said the range was 13, and no matter what definition of range he was talking about, 13 is flat out wrong, so my original point stands. I fail to see how we're saying the exact same thing. I don't really know how to be clearer on this -_-;; If a guy says EMP has 13 range, he is wrong, no matter what definition of range he uses. If someone says EMP has 10 range, he is indeed right with the assumption that you're talking about cast range.

Okay so he was wrong but so were you, you didnt say casting range. Your gettings super nitpicky and i doubt you would have kept arguing it was 10 until someone pointed out AOE range if you were actually taking aoe range into account/ realising that it had 2 extra range because of aoe.

Honestly though who cares he was 1 range off is it really that big of a deal, whenever ive heard anyone talk about emp range that knows what they are talking about they say 12 and take the aoe into account, you didnt you just looked it up on liquipedia and immediately assumed you were right, and you would have been if you said casting range wich you didnt. If your just talking about range in general i would say 12 is more right then 10(even you sort of admitted that) and since neither of you specified in your original post i guess your both wrong (but someone corrected him right under his post, you could have just left it at that)
nt-rAven
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada405 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:14:34
August 07 2011 07:13 GMT
#248
huk naniwa kiwi, huk has been using hts forever~ just because they arent winning gsl doesn;t mean they are not evolving protoss for the community~
get owned
IceSlipper
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Australia1028 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:15:25
August 07 2011 07:13 GMT
#249
On August 07 2011 16:08 dooraven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 15:58 repEAT wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:57 Yew wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:54 repEAT wrote:
Someone should re run these without MC, Nestea, and MVP. Should get a better feel for the average pro by removing the outliers.

Then Protoss would be doing even worse >_>

Not necessarily. Protoss gets a ton of wins from MC, but Nestea and MVP give them a lot of losses as well.


Nestea? Sure, MVP? No.

The removal of MC would be devastating to Protoss since Terran has still have Polt/Bomber/other insanely good TvP and Zerg still have Losira/Coca who have very great ZvP. Protoss has.....?

Its getting ridiculous people including coca when talking about great zergs, because he won a couple zvp's in the last gsl and made a good run.. if you are going to include coca as a great zerg player, you cant just exclude a protoss player like alicia or even huk (edit: even puzzle/anypro/hongun are on par with coca, hell even the horrible inca made a further run in the gsl than coca)..

Not that it matters.. i think its pretty clear that its T>Z>P in terms of balance but the difference is so miniscule that the better play SHOULD still win every time..
Let it Raine
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada1245 Posts
August 07 2011 07:14 GMT
#250
stats =/= balance

1-1-1 is probably not balanced though
Grandmaster Zerg x14. Diamond 1 LoL. MLG 50, Halo 3. Raine.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6230 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:15:47
August 07 2011 07:15 GMT
#251
Serious question, has anyone done this kind of data mining on the BW TLPD? The data is all there, and I'd be fascinated to see if BW is any better than SC2 in terms of race balance.

Surely guys like Oov and Savior would have smashed the KR winrates into 70+ at different stages, but BW is still considered balanced. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the plots looked even worse than this.
Executor1
Profile Joined April 2011
1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:17:44
August 07 2011 07:16 GMT
#252
On August 07 2011 16:14 Let it Raine wrote:
stats =/= balance

1-1-1 is probably not balanced though

Agreed, that build is a bit ridiculous its just too many things to prepare for so early on in the game.

Stats do not equal balance but they are a good indicator of shifts in strategies, such as 1/1/1

balance comes into the equation when the metagame ( i never know if im using this term correctly but you know what i mean) doesnt equal out as people learn to defend these strategies, if 1/1/1 remains prevalent for months then balance is an issue.
iamahydralisk
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States813 Posts
August 07 2011 07:16 GMT
#253
On August 07 2011 10:04 TUski wrote:
Blue flames is probably the development that caused the spike in TvZ and overall

Edit: Holy crap I'm a hydralisk :O

You called?

But srsly, to be on topic, Terrans learned how to hellion.
"well if youre looking for long term, go safe, if you expect it to end either way, go risky. wow. just like sc2" - friend of mine when I asked him which girl to pick
Lncognit0
Profile Joined March 2011
United States97 Posts
August 07 2011 07:16 GMT
#254
You should expect that Terran would always be ahead to a degree. Alike in Brood War, around the world Terran is the most played race. More people playing it turns into more innovation and more strategies. You only see a few of them at the top level because all the top Terrans figured out what is best to use. Zerg is just fine the way they are, Protoss may need balance help but even that can't be said for sure for at least a month or two when Protoss players have some time to come up with new strategies, unit comps, etc
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
August 07 2011 07:18 GMT
#255
On August 07 2011 16:10 illumn wrote:
Show nested quote +
If he had said EMP had 12 range, I would have understood what he meant, since it's reasonable to say that a 10-range AoE attack with a radius of 2 has 12 effective range. But he said the range was 13, and no matter what definition of range he was talking about, 13 is flat out wrong, so my original point stands. I fail to see how we're saying the exact same thing. I don't really know how to be clearer on this -_-;; If a guy says EMP has 13 range, he is wrong, no matter what definition of range he uses. If someone says EMP has 10 range, he is indeed right with the assumption that you're talking about cast range.


...he admitted to that mistake.

Show nested quote +
Sorry, it's actually 12.
10 range + 2 from AoE. Please look into stuff before trying to make others look bad.


Yup. But then he felt the need to nitpick my statement as if my statement was equally as fallacious as his was, when, actually, 10 range is in fact correct in the typical definition of the term. I believe I have already made that argument clear. I don't know how I can improve my clarity.

Person A makes fallacious statement, that, no matter how you interpret it, is incorrect.

Person B corrects Person A with a statement that, under a typical assumption (the assumption that "range" is the same thing as "casting range", which is a reasonable assumption since that's how it's defined on liquipedia), is indeed correct.
Darclite
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1021 Posts
August 07 2011 07:21 GMT
#256
On August 07 2011 16:18 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 16:10 illumn wrote:
If he had said EMP had 12 range, I would have understood what he meant, since it's reasonable to say that a 10-range AoE attack with a radius of 2 has 12 effective range. But he said the range was 13, and no matter what definition of range he was talking about, 13 is flat out wrong, so my original point stands. I fail to see how we're saying the exact same thing. I don't really know how to be clearer on this -_-;; If a guy says EMP has 13 range, he is wrong, no matter what definition of range he uses. If someone says EMP has 10 range, he is indeed right with the assumption that you're talking about cast range.


...he admitted to that mistake.

Sorry, it's actually 12.
10 range + 2 from AoE. Please look into stuff before trying to make others look bad.


Yup. But then he felt the need to nitpick my statement as if my statement was equally as fallacious as his was, when, actually, 10 range is in fact correct in the typical definition of the term. I believe I have already made that argument clear. I don't know how I can improve my clarity.

Person A makes fallacious statement, that, no matter how you interpret it, is incorrect.

Person B corrects Person A with a statement that, under a typical assumption (the assumption that "range" is the same thing as "casting range", which is a reasonable assumption since that's how it's defined on liquipedia), is indeed correct.


So you saw him post something misleading, so you posted something misleading? Why didn't you just correct him and say that it was 10 + 2 rather than say it was 10? I understand what you are saying here describing why you did it...but why not respond to an inaccuracy by being very accurate?
They're fools. You should eat them.
Executor1
Profile Joined April 2011
1353 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:25:13
August 07 2011 07:21 GMT
#257
On August 07 2011 16:18 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 16:10 illumn wrote:
If he had said EMP had 12 range, I would have understood what he meant, since it's reasonable to say that a 10-range AoE attack with a radius of 2 has 12 effective range. But he said the range was 13, and no matter what definition of range he was talking about, 13 is flat out wrong, so my original point stands. I fail to see how we're saying the exact same thing. I don't really know how to be clearer on this -_-;; If a guy says EMP has 13 range, he is wrong, no matter what definition of range he uses. If someone says EMP has 10 range, he is indeed right with the assumption that you're talking about cast range.


...he admitted to that mistake.

Sorry, it's actually 12.
10 range + 2 from AoE. Please look into stuff before trying to make others look bad.


Yup. But then he felt the need to nitpick my statement as if my statement was equally as fallacious as his was, when, actually, 10 range is in fact correct in the typical definition of the term. I believe I have already made that argument clear. I don't know how I can improve my clarity.

Person A makes fallacious statement, that, no matter how you interpret it, is incorrect.

Person B corrects Person A with a statement that, under a typical assumption (the assumption that "range" is the same thing as "casting range", which is a reasonable assumption since that's how it's defined on liquipedia), is indeed correct.

I really dont think he was nitpicking, i think its reasonable thing to say. If anyone says "emp has 10 range" its reasonable to say, "well its 10 range +2 if you take into account the AOE"

And if you actually remembered that it was 10+2 then why not just say that?

Edit: not to mention you made a condescending statement after you corrected him and technically yours wasnt exactly right either.
dooraven
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia2820 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:23:11
August 07 2011 07:22 GMT
#258
On August 07 2011 16:13 IceSlipper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 16:08 dooraven wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:58 repEAT wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:57 Yew wrote:
On August 07 2011 15:54 repEAT wrote:
Someone should re run these without MC, Nestea, and MVP. Should get a better feel for the average pro by removing the outliers.

Then Protoss would be doing even worse >_>

Not necessarily. Protoss gets a ton of wins from MC, but Nestea and MVP give them a lot of losses as well.


Nestea? Sure, MVP? No.

The removal of MC would be devastating to Protoss since Terran has still have Polt/Bomber/other insanely good TvP and Zerg still have Losira/Coca who have very great ZvP. Protoss has.....?

Its getting ridiculous people including coca when talking about great zergs, because he won a couple zvp's in the last gsl and made a good run.. if you are going to include coca as a great zerg player, you cant just exclude a protoss player like alicia or even huk (edit: even puzzle/anypro/hongun are on par with coca, hell even the horrible inca made a further run in the gsl than coca)..

Not that it matters.. i think its pretty clear that its T>Z>P in terms of balance but the difference is so miniscule that the better play SHOULD still win every time..


Coca has good ZvP, , he has a 70% win rate in that matchup. His other Matchups are pretty bad, but I'm only taking his ZvP. I'm not stating he's a good Zerg because there are many more deserving of that.
Go go Alliance.
JustTray
Profile Joined May 2011
127 Posts
August 07 2011 07:26 GMT
#259
Pleast stop trying to indicate balance from these stats. This data is irrelevant in that respect. It is not statistically significant. All you should read from this is "Terran won a lot of games in MLG Anaheim," which you already knew if you watched it.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 07:31:05
August 07 2011 07:27 GMT
#260
On August 07 2011 16:21 Darclite wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 16:18 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 16:10 illumn wrote:
If he had said EMP had 12 range, I would have understood what he meant, since it's reasonable to say that a 10-range AoE attack with a radius of 2 has 12 effective range. But he said the range was 13, and no matter what definition of range he was talking about, 13 is flat out wrong, so my original point stands. I fail to see how we're saying the exact same thing. I don't really know how to be clearer on this -_-;; If a guy says EMP has 13 range, he is wrong, no matter what definition of range he uses. If someone says EMP has 10 range, he is indeed right with the assumption that you're talking about cast range.


...he admitted to that mistake.

Sorry, it's actually 12.
10 range + 2 from AoE. Please look into stuff before trying to make others look bad.


Yup. But then he felt the need to nitpick my statement as if my statement was equally as fallacious as his was, when, actually, 10 range is in fact correct in the typical definition of the term. I believe I have already made that argument clear. I don't know how I can improve my clarity.

Person A makes fallacious statement, that, no matter how you interpret it, is incorrect.

Person B corrects Person A with a statement that, under a typical assumption (the assumption that "range" is the same thing as "casting range", which is a reasonable assumption since that's how it's defined on liquipedia), is indeed correct.


So you saw him post something misleading, so you posted something misleading? Why didn't you just correct him and say that it was 10 + 2 rather than say it was 10? I understand what you are saying here describing why you did it...but why not respond to an inaccuracy by being very accurate?


You're indeed correct. I should have said, "EMP has 10 range, or, if you want to talk about true range, then it has 12 range. But 13 is neither of those numbers, so you're wrong." However, I had too much faith that people make the same semantical assumptions that I do, even though my assumptions I'd argue are well-supported, since they're in line with the same way "range" is used on liquipedia, and I'm pretty sure that's how "range" is defined in-game as well.

On August 07 2011 16:21 Executor1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 16:18 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 16:10 illumn wrote:
If he had said EMP had 12 range, I would have understood what he meant, since it's reasonable to say that a 10-range AoE attack with a radius of 2 has 12 effective range. But he said the range was 13, and no matter what definition of range he was talking about, 13 is flat out wrong, so my original point stands. I fail to see how we're saying the exact same thing. I don't really know how to be clearer on this -_-;; If a guy says EMP has 13 range, he is wrong, no matter what definition of range he uses. If someone says EMP has 10 range, he is indeed right with the assumption that you're talking about cast range.


...he admitted to that mistake.

Sorry, it's actually 12.
10 range + 2 from AoE. Please look into stuff before trying to make others look bad.


Yup. But then he felt the need to nitpick my statement as if my statement was equally as fallacious as his was, when, actually, 10 range is in fact correct in the typical definition of the term. I believe I have already made that argument clear. I don't know how I can improve my clarity.

Person A makes fallacious statement, that, no matter how you interpret it, is incorrect.

Person B corrects Person A with a statement that, under a typical assumption (the assumption that "range" is the same thing as "casting range", which is a reasonable assumption since that's how it's defined on liquipedia), is indeed correct.

I really dont think he was nitpicking, i think its reasonable thing to say. If anyone says "emp has 10 range" its reasonable to say, "well its 10 range +2 if you take into account the AOE"

And if you actually remembered that it was 10+2 then why not just say that?

Edit: not to mention you made a condescending statement after you corrected him and technically yours wasnt exactly right either.


Because I'm defining "range" as casting range. Look on liquipedia. What does it define range as? It defines range the same way that I defined it.
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