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On August 07 2011 14:37 babysimba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 14:33 Dommk wrote:On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.
To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing. Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible? Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose to mediocre Zergs like in the GSTL Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream.
Puzzle also never said it was his weakest, he said he just didn't know how to win against the mass infestor style of EU/NA Zergs
But then again, every top Protoss's "weakest" match up is PvZ right now. Name me one who has said it is their strongest match up. I dare you.
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On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.
To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing.
Forgot to add: I haven't seen nestea lost a single game against stargate play, besides that 1 game against anypro where his OL scouted mass gateways and anypro canceled and go 2 stargates.
I personally find it strange that you think you've figured out that all Protoss players are idiotically blindly copying MC. What lead you to that conclusion? Have you looked into the heads of all the Korean Protosses? Are you just so knowledgeable of the game that you can look at what Korean Protosses do and say, "Heh, he's just blindly copying MC, he doesn't even know what he's really doing". The fact that you talk as if you know better than most of the Korean Protosses shows me that you're either trolling or think so incredibly highly of yourself that your arrogance makes it impossible to have a rational discussion with you. Indeed, when Dommk called you out on your bullshit, all you did was nitpick at one example he made rather than focusing on the real issue of how ridiculously arrogant you sound. There are too many people on TL who think they know better than the pros, and you're pretty much a perfect embodiment of that problem.
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On August 07 2011 14:41 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 14:37 babysimba wrote:On August 07 2011 14:33 Dommk wrote:On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.
To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing. Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible? Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose to mediocre Zergs like in the GSTL Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream. Puzzle also never said it was his weakest, he said he just didn't know how to win against the mass infestor style of EU/NA Zergs But then again, every top Protoss's "weakest" match up is PvZ right now. Name me one who has said it is their strongest match up. I dare you.
MC at NASL finals : "I think, vs zerg, me never lose."
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On August 07 2011 14:44 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 14:41 Dommk wrote:On August 07 2011 14:37 babysimba wrote:On August 07 2011 14:33 Dommk wrote:On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.
To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing. Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible? Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose to mediocre Zergs like in the GSTL Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream. Puzzle also never said it was his weakest, he said he just didn't know how to win against the mass infestor style of EU/NA Zergs But then again, every top Protoss's "weakest" match up is PvZ right now. Name me one who has said it is their strongest match up. I dare you. MC at NASL finals : "I think, vs zerg, me never lose."
A lot has changed since then. Especially since his latest interview he admits Protoss having problems to Zerg and he was going to show everyone how to do it, then promptly losses to a significantly worse Zerg in a macro game in the GSTL
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On August 07 2011 14:14 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +
It has been said many times that if you lose to EMPs, it has more to do with another problem with your play (like bad unit comp or macro) and less because of the EMPs that landed. How many times do you watch pro games that are literally engorged with thoughts and commentary of "BEAUTIFUL EMPS!" yet the Terran never outright gains the advantage from those battles
Do you mean games like MC vs Puma where Puma out right won games against MC when he was 30 food behind by landing 3 EMP's? When The ghost count gets high not only does it guarantee a shieldless Protoss but it also means that Templars are no longer a factor. When was the last time you saw 10 Templars ever manage to toe to toe with 10 Ghosts? It just isn't possible, it makes them a complete deficit. The advantage that Terran gets is that a Templar less, Shieldless Protoss is vastly inferior to a Terran army. To say "there's very little point in making even the few that the Terrans are making now" is absurd considering EVERY single Terran is going mass ghost lategame against Protoss. I don't think there needs to be a nerf to EMP at all, but just like Infestors the benefit of over making them shouldn't be soo strong but I don't want to keep going on with this. TvP is relatively fine these days, it is just the 1/1/1 all-ins that have been crushing Protoss left and right, and there is very little Protoss can do, even if scouted 
You mean the ONE game where MC made an army (templar and archon) that was hard countered by EMP, then proceeded to clump everything? This was a HUGE mistake by MC. It's akin to saying Colossi won a battle against my marine force after I stimmed once already to chase down 5 stalkers. Even then, it was just one game. I can go find another 5 or watch the next big tournament's TvPs and see 2+ good EMPs in a lot of games without the game being decided yet.
As for the "10 templar vs 10 ghosts" scenario, it doesn't happen often for a reason. You use ghosts to counter templar, but proper dancing on both sides decides who the winner is, especially since the EMP energy nerf.
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Dommk been complaining abut protoss being too weak since that account was created, way way back in the LR threads 
Even when protoss was owning everyone except the best of the best terrans.
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actually the only thing i think holding back sc2 is the warpgate, because you can change zerg but if they cant handle warpgate u will just let protoss back top same if u nerf terran thats why they keep the protoss weak but i still think they should put amulet back since now theres emp and fungal, its would be even to put it back its not like insta amulet
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From my Terran masters POV Protoss is the strongest race, but at high level I can see how Terran is the best since they reward skill the most, Zerg does too in different ways.
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On August 07 2011 14:45 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 14:44 Jinivus wrote:On August 07 2011 14:41 Dommk wrote:On August 07 2011 14:37 babysimba wrote:On August 07 2011 14:33 Dommk wrote:On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.
To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing. Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible? Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose to mediocre Zergs like in the GSTL Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream. Puzzle also never said it was his weakest, he said he just didn't know how to win against the mass infestor style of EU/NA Zergs But then again, every top Protoss's "weakest" match up is PvZ right now. Name me one who has said it is their strongest match up. I dare you. MC at NASL finals : "I think, vs zerg, me never lose." A lot has changed since then. Especially since his latest interview he admits Protoss having problems to Zerg and he was going to show everyone how to do it, then promptly losses to a significantly worse Zerg in a macro game in the GSTL
Pretty sure he meant a bo3 +, not a team league format where bongbong was likely trained specifically to snipe MC.
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You mean the ONE game where MC made an army (templar and archon) that was hard countered by EMP, then proceeded to clump everything?
No, I was talking about the NASL finals game on Metapolais where MC split his Templar but still couldn't get Feedbacks on Pumas army and got rolled after he split his army but got EMP'd anyway by the 5ghosts. Puma was 30 supply down, but rolled him anyway.
Anyways, I'm going to stop posting because I just made "that guy" in every thread you see, time for me stfu and let the Pros, the people who actually put the effort to win, solve it for themselves.
Dommk been complaining abut protoss being too weak since that account was created, way way back in the LR threads
Even when protoss was owning everyone except the best of the best terrans.
I stopped complaining about balance or a race being weak ever since I got warned last year >_> I just complain about 1/1/1 all-ins 
Anyways, I never said Protoss was weak, even after all that I said PvT was fine and really the only thing that needed adjusting was 1/1/1 all-ins. I was just pointing out scenarios that are kinda ridiculous and could be a reason why Protoss are failing :X But then again, it comes back full circle with "Colossus, Forcefields, warpgates" when Protoss is winning
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On August 07 2011 14:37 babysimba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 14:33 Dommk wrote:On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote:
lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage.
To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts.
Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing. Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible? Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose to mediocre Zergs like in the GSTL Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream.
So you have to be better than MC and PvZ has to be your best matchup otherwise you mindlessly copy MC's builds and suck?
btw, the whole "Terran players are better" argument is not really valid. One cannot assume the skill of the player: the player does as well as his race allows him to. High APM and multitasking capabilities pay off more for terran than for Protoss. While things are pretty close to even in large engagements (although I think there is a problem with EMP, but it's not horrible), what does Protoss have that is as effective of a means of pulling ahead or catching up as drops are? (Warp prisms, dts, and phoenixes are hardly a match for stimmed bio drops, hellions in drops or not, and banshees). Unless you have some special method of proving that Terran players train more, study more, and innovate more that is completely independent of balance (which is pretty much impossible), then the whole "No it isn't imba, Terran players are better!" argument is not valid.
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doom exactly if two players equal skill match up terran becomes more cost effective EARLY game and at a high level theres always an early, mid and late game, and toss needs to be more effecient to stay alive vs any race since basic units as toss are way more expensive
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The only recommendation i give to warpgates is giving them energy like a nexus and when they have no energy they are treated like a standard gateway~ only way i can really see this fixing and alowing other races to be nerfed early game
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I only feel like ghost is just so cost effective and easy to land EMP, doesn't matter where it hit, HTs or not, it's still drain all the shield and energies from Protoss gateway units. While it's so damn hard to feedback ghost, MC is like the only one in the world who could fb 8 ghosts at the same time.
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no he is not the only one in the world to be able to do that feedback easiest spell to use in the game or up there. but when u play a terran that snipes and uses scans late game or random sacraficial marine..... it gets tricky especially if the terran is innoventive and cloaks and nukes~ but thats not a problem in sc2 atm its more how thy get insta energy as they spawn, and even though they are trying to equate build time enforcer for ht since u can jsut warp them in with gateways, its not fair that is the protoss racial advantage the game has been structured to have protoss use warpgates they should alow the use of amulet and warpgate like they invisioned the game and work around it... and though the trend is infestors are so op, i still think hts are better then infestors especially when u consider the fact that insta feedback, storm and can turn into archons which can splash damage every single zerg unit with bonus damage and terran bio
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On August 07 2011 15:32 nt-rAven wrote:
no he is not the only one in the world to be able to do that feedback easiest spell to use in the game or up there. but when u play a terran that snipes and uses scans late game or random sacraficial marine..... it gets tricky especially if the terran is innoventive and cloaks and nukes~ but thats not a problem in sc2 atm its more how thy get insta energy as they spawn, and even though they are trying to equate build time enforcer for ht since u can jsut warp them in with gateways, its not fair that is the protoss racial advantage the game has been structured to have protoss use warpgates they should alow the use of amulet and warpgate like they invisioned the game and work around it... and though the trend is infestors are so op, i still think hts are better then infestors especially when u consider the fact that insta feedback, storm and can turn into archons which can splash damage every single zerg unit with bonus damage and terran bio
All I hear in this post is "Protoss OP".
You must have looked at the graphs provided and came to the conclusion that Protoss is dominating Zergs and Terrans?
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Ouch.. Korean protosses arent doing too hot : /
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damn it dude it looked so nice a month ago >_______<
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obviously you dont know much about other races if you think im saying protoss is op in that post
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On August 07 2011 15:32 nt-rAven wrote:
no he is not the only one in the world to be able to do that feedback easiest spell to use in the game or up there. but when u play a terran that snipes and uses scans late game or random sacraficial marine..... it gets tricky especially if the terran is innoventive and cloaks and nukes~ but thats not a problem in sc2 atm its more how thy get insta energy as they spawn, and even though they are trying to equate build time enforcer for ht since u can jsut warp them in with gateways, its not fair that is the protoss racial advantage the game has been structured to have protoss use warpgates they should alow the use of amulet and warpgate like they invisioned the game and work around it... and though the trend is infestors are so op, i still think hts are better then infestors especially when u consider the fact that insta feedback, storm and can turn into archons which can splash damage every single zerg unit with bonus damage and terran bio
clicking tiny little unit in the middle of 40 marines and marauders vs land a EMP with range of 10, radius of 2. Do you think which one is harder? FB is the hardest spell in the game, you can misspell between ghost and medivac easily.
Why don't you log in the game, start a custom map unit test and try it out, and see which one is faster? Protoss have to blink stalkers out of the way for zealots to move up, sentry guardian shield and FFs, HTs fb and storm, if colossus in there, you have to A move it too right?. So how are you gonna compare that with pressing E and stutter steps MMMV?
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EPT
