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[July] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
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AsianEcksDragon
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1036 Posts
August 07 2011 04:21 GMT
#161
On August 07 2011 13:08 skrzmark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 13:02 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:51 akalarry wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:41 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:24 akalarry wrote:
i like how the winrates changed without any patch changes

that means people are learning and evolving. i dont think there should really be any changes for another month or so because maybe toss and zerg can learn and figure something out that will shift it back to even. give it time, one month isn't enough to start nerfing and buffing things.


I don't really think that's the case. It's more like which Terran strategy is fotm and how Zerg and Protoss blind counters it the next month.


so what was the strategy in may that zerg and toss blind countered last month?


Nothing. They continued dropping because they stopped mixing it up. Remember, it takes awhile for a fotm strategy to catch on with the masses and they don't have to necessarily last a month.


Bane-drops more infestor usage, and roach-ling all-in became quite popular.


I'm sorry. I was not aware that Terran could make banelings, infestors, roaches and lings.
神は乗り越えられる試練しか与えない
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
August 07 2011 04:21 GMT
#162
--- Nuked ---
fadestep
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States605 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 04:23:01
August 07 2011 04:22 GMT
#163
This is continued proof that Protoss remains OP and easy to play. I encourage weak ass Zergs and Terrans to continue to bitch about Colossus.

+ Show Spoiler +
trolling. but really, as P is still bitched at by pros and random ladder kids alike for being easy and OP it always makes me laughs to see stuff like this. yes, i know my race is OP and all i do is a move, now can you GG out and move on to your next 60+% winrate matchup against me?
not a hero
babysimba
Profile Joined November 2010
10466 Posts
August 07 2011 04:23 GMT
#164
On August 07 2011 12:59 HolyArrow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.


Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
August 07 2011 04:24 GMT
#165
On August 07 2011 10:06 Stress wrote:
Keep in mind the Protoss in Korea only have a few outstanding players, unlike the other 2 races, and the marine/tank/raven timing is ridiculously good. I also think that the longer games in TvP are decide by good EMPs, wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of change to it.

I am tired of hearing about the player skills. Every fucking time there is a clear evidence that Protoss sucks, it's because players are shit. Every time Protoss perform well, it's because Protoss is OP.

How retarded is that argument? If the statistics show more than 800 games, how can you talk about outstanding players? Isn't this stats for all games? Truly terrible argument.

PS MC is better than Polt. Period.
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 04:26:54
August 07 2011 04:25 GMT
#166
On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 12:59 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.


Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.

Then why are they still losing?

And why are there so few Protoss in GSL?

I hate this argument, apparently the "easiest" race is the least represented and does the worst...because..."just case"

Or maybe it is just because you have no idea what "Game sense" actually is and vastly underestimating what it takes to play Toss at a high level

fadestep
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States605 Posts
August 07 2011 04:25 GMT
#167
On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 12:59 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.


Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.


This is mindless drivel. Toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well because of warp in? That makes so little sense it hurts my brain. The ability to make small sets of units instantly doesn't allow you to have no game sense in any fashion. Like, none. The Zerg mechanic actually lends itself a lot better to this argument, as popping 30 roaches when you have no army and you see an attack coming seems to show a lack of game sense more than warping in a pair of stalkers and a pair of Zealots to try and beat off a drop. I don't think Zerg takes no game sense, just saying the conclusion you are trying to draw is easier to do with Zerg than Protoss and Zerg is super-duper hard right?
not a hero
AsianEcksDragon
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1036 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 04:26:30
August 07 2011 04:26 GMT
#168
On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 12:59 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.


Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.


You still need very solid mechanics and control to play a high level whether it is to hold off a roach/ling attack or using high temps against ghost and infestors. But you're right about the lack of game sense requirement.
神は乗り越えられる試練しか与えない
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 04:30:07
August 07 2011 04:27 GMT
#169
On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 12:59 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.


Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.


You can theorycraft to get around the hypocrisy all you want. I can complain about other supposedly negative aspects of game design all day, some that, if fixed, would actually benefit Toss. For example, why do bunkers get a refund at all? Doesn't that eliminate the need for good game sense as well, since a Terran can just make bunkers whenever he feels he might be unsafe, at relatively little cost if his game sense is off? Are Blue Flame Hellions, a unit that can end a game with one good shot, good game design? I could go on and on, but whatever. The fact is that people are being all careful and intelligent about balance now saying "Now, now, let's let the game develop before calling for a nerf", when a while ago the moment KA seemed to make PvT imba in favor of Protoss, everyone was crying for the KA nerf.
FredSuceBats
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada12 Posts
August 07 2011 04:27 GMT
#170
Protoss needs the khaydarin amulet back!!! Zerg still has pathogen glands and Terran has mobius reactor.
Quebec
VTPerfect
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States487 Posts
August 07 2011 04:28 GMT
#171
On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 12:59 HolyArrow wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.


Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;


Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers.


careful what you wish for, you'de be surprised the lengths certain protoss players are going right now to make 1.3.6 protoss work. give protoss an equal opportunity unit and u may find yourself severely lacking in the skill department.
skrzmark
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1528 Posts
August 07 2011 04:30 GMT
#172
On August 07 2011 13:21 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 13:08 skrzmark wrote:
On August 07 2011 13:02 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:51 akalarry wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:41 AsianEcksDragon wrote:
On August 07 2011 12:24 akalarry wrote:
i like how the winrates changed without any patch changes

that means people are learning and evolving. i dont think there should really be any changes for another month or so because maybe toss and zerg can learn and figure something out that will shift it back to even. give it time, one month isn't enough to start nerfing and buffing things.


I don't really think that's the case. It's more like which Terran strategy is fotm and how Zerg and Protoss blind counters it the next month.


so what was the strategy in may that zerg and toss blind countered last month?


Nothing. They continued dropping because they stopped mixing it up. Remember, it takes awhile for a fotm strategy to catch on with the masses and they don't have to necessarily last a month.


Bane-drops more infestor usage, and roach-ling all-in became quite popular.


I'm sorry. I was not aware that Terran could make banelings, infestors, roaches and lings.


My bad I thought they were saying ZvP.
We got them GOM TvT's and them mlGG's
Kammalleri
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada613 Posts
August 07 2011 04:32 GMT
#173
Terran early pushes vs Protoss are ridiculous. Ghost marine push, MTB, MTBR MTR. The last three pretty much looks the same until you get it in your face and they require completely different composition.

People complain because protoss are OP late game, but until 10-15 minutes you make a mistake you're dead.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
August 07 2011 04:32 GMT
#174
On August 07 2011 13:04 MayorITC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.


That's funny.

High Templars got nerfed cause Terrans complained.


That's funny.

High Templars got nerfed because Blizzard didn't want Protoss to be able to instantly kill anything in range of a pylon.

And really, you brought up the colossus? Something that hasn't changed since beta? I mean shit, I'm going to start complaining that Protoss players whined and my Concussive Shells now require an upgrade.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
RaiKageRyu
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada4773 Posts
August 07 2011 04:34 GMT
#175
I like how for Korean PvZ. It's like a complete turnaround every month.
Someone call down the Thunder?
Xxavi
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1248 Posts
August 07 2011 04:34 GMT
#176
In general though, when will people stop calling Protoss players shit? Does Idra need to change race and then whine about it? Or Bisu to come to SC2 and lose to some random Polt?

Remember, players like Rain, BitByBitPrime weren't Protoss. They got where they got not because of their skill, but Terran being so flexible with their strategies. They have a lot of units that could be genuinely good. Forget about the helions, they still have a lot of other units which will be further explored.

PS It's interesting that both Artosis and Idra played as Protoss (in their spare time?), yet besides the complaining, non of them switched. If the race is so OP, just switch it and destroy nerds everywhere. No, it turns out it isn't that easy. The only memorable product of that BS is the famous "the Artosis pylon" =)
lizzard_warish
Profile Joined June 2011
589 Posts
August 07 2011 04:34 GMT
#177
On August 07 2011 12:26 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Show nested quote +
Which of course both our opinions are retardedly unsubstantiated which is why statistics do not matter, analysis from top players do. They can talk about why, or if, the strategy in tvp for example favours terran, not these graphs.


Yeah cause pros are totally unbiased and always agree with each other, right?
Thats why I said analysis, at the very least they can make reasoned arguments which we can half understand [and hopefully pick up some tips on our play]. Thats a discussion worth having, stats... not so much.
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-07 04:36:36
August 07 2011 04:35 GMT
#178
On August 07 2011 13:32 Kammalleri wrote:
Terran early pushes vs Protoss are ridiculous. Ghost marine push, MTB, MTBR MTR. The last three pretty much looks the same until you get it in your face and they require completely different composition.

People complain because protoss are OP late game, but until 10-15 minutes you make a mistake you're dead.


Protoss are stronger late game. That's just a fact because otherwise we'd have shitty early, mid and late game. They aren't OP until they get around 12+gates, 3 robos, 2 stargates, a huge bank to spend and are making 3 colossus 2 voids and warping in 30 supply a cycle.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Serpico
Profile Joined May 2010
4285 Posts
August 07 2011 04:36 GMT
#179
On August 07 2011 13:34 Xxavi wrote:
In general though, when will people stop calling Protoss players shit? Does Idra need to change race and then whine about it? Or Bisu to come to SC2 and lose to some random Polt?

Remember, players like Rain, BitByBitPrime weren't Protoss. They got where they got not because of their skill, but Terran being so flexible with their strategies. They have a lot of units that could be genuinely good. Forget about the helions, they still have a lot of other units which will be further explored.

PS It's interesting that both Artosis and Idra played as Protoss (in their spare time?), yet besides the complaining, non of them switched. If the race is so OP, just switch it and destroy nerds everywhere. No, it turns out it isn't that easy. The only memorable product of that BS is the famous "the Artosis pylon" =)

Are you done being mad? Switching races at the pro level is extremely difficult and balance changes could occur anyways during that time. It isnt worth it unless you hate the play style of a race.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
August 07 2011 04:36 GMT
#180
On August 07 2011 13:35 Amui wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 07 2011 13:32 Kammalleri wrote:
Terran early pushes vs Protoss are ridiculous. Ghost marine push, MTB, MTBR MTR. The last three pretty much looks the same until you get it in your face and they require completely different composition.

People complain because protoss are OP late game, but until 10-15 minutes you make a mistake you're dead.


Protoss are strong late game. They aren't OP until they get around 12+gates, 3 robos, 2 stargates, a huge bank to spend and are making 3 colossus 2 voids and warping in 30 supply a cycle.


Who lets a protoss do that? Serious question.
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