I hate dealing with these graphs so much for so many reasons.
Its like banging my head against a wall dealing with people who take them to be the definitive proof of balance.

I will, however, commend him for the efforts he's gone through considering I believe he does this mostly by hand. Its still a pretty big undertaking.

TheKRoc

United States74 Posts

August 07 2011 03:49 GMT

#122

That PvZ Korea graph is having the image equivalent of an epileptic seizure.

Edit: Seriously, I read through more of the thread... you are dumb if you think this has anything to do with balance. If anything, this proves that we can't come close to measuring balance; no one race has reached a perfect level of skill or metagame (as proved by the fact that win rates fluctuate regardless of balance) and therefore you cannot measure balance without having that factor in.

mewbert

United States291 Posts

August 07 2011 03:49 GMT

#123

this is obviously very high variance, theres not a steady slope or anything, this is not indicative of balance please stop uploading these stupid charts

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

August 07 2011 03:50 GMT

#124

On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent.

Decent as in never losing another game to terran?

akalarry

United States1978 Posts

August 07 2011 03:51 GMT

#125

On August 07 2011 12:41 AsianEcksDragon wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't really think that's the case. It's more like which Terran strategy is fotm and how Zerg and Protoss blind counters it the next month.

so what was the strategy in may that zerg and toss blind countered last month?

Kovaz

Canada233 Posts

August 07 2011 03:51 GMT

#126

I wouldn't put too much stock into the Korean protoss winrates. There's so few of them that it basically comes down to MC having a weak month and all of a sudden the winrate plummets. Watch, if MC goes deep in the next GSL, protoss is going to look so OP.

Teim

Australia373 Posts

August 07 2011 03:52 GMT

#127

Wait what? Terran doing so well against Protoss? Looks like I'm gonna have to start using some of those 1/1/1 builds.

skirmisheR

Sweden451 Posts

August 07 2011 03:52 GMT

#128

Winrates in tourneys are an EXTREMELY bad measurement of balance. I don't have problems with measuring balance with statistics but using winrates in tournaments to measure balance is just bad. I wish I would write an article about how winrates are affected by balance and post it to TL.net, but I'm too lazy. Maybe I will soon though

TheKRoc

United States74 Posts

August 07 2011 03:53 GMT

#129

On August 07 2011 12:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Show nested quote +

Decent as in never losing another game to terran?

Why even respond to a comment that stupid? It's so clearly ridiculous.

Shield

Bulgaria4824 Posts

August 07 2011 03:54 GMT

#130

It's hilarious because people still claim P is OP, while... you see it's not so OP there.
Someone once said if a race has 45% win rate = UP and 55% win rate = OP, can we officially claim something is imba now?

Giwoon

Korea (South)431 Posts

August 07 2011 03:54 GMT

#131

On August 07 2011 09:56 sickle wrote:
Protoss is just so overpowered.

yeah it is

On August 07 2011 12:54 darkness wrote:
It's hilarious because people still claim P is OP, while... you see it's not so OP there.
Someone once said if a race has 45% win rate = UP and 55% win rate = OP, can we officially claim something is imba now?

not zerg for sure

HolyArrow

United States7116 Posts

August 07 2011 03:54 GMT

#132

On August 07 2011 12:53 bonerificus wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why even respond to a comment that stupid? It's so clearly ridiculous.

Indeed. The clear solution is obviously for Stalkers to start with Blink. :D

Giwoon

Korea (South)431 Posts

August 07 2011 03:55 GMT

#133

On August 07 2011 12:54 HolyArrow wrote:

Show nested quote +

Indeed. The clear solution is obviously for Stalkers to start with Blink. :D

are you retarded? the better solution would be to have
void rays fully charged no matter what

pure_protoss

152 Posts

August 07 2011 03:56 GMT

#134

its easy why terrans and zerg are raping protoss these days...infestors has been stated to be too strong at the moment (even by dustin browder) and by many pros. And versus terran, terrans were able to win for about a year using only marine/marauders/medivacs/vikings...most of them didnt even use the ghost at all...now with the recent buff to ghosts cost...they tried new things and found how strong they are vs toss (removing all the shields) and the energy to sentries and ht's. However, I think terrans could dominate even more if they would use ravens as a standard in their composition!

skrzmark

United States1528 Posts

August 07 2011 03:56 GMT

#135

On August 07 2011 12:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Show nested quote +

Decent as in never losing another game to terran?

Hi, Jinro. I didn't mean the charge upgrade but the speed increase they get from upgrading charge. I dunno Zealots were so beastly in SCBW but in SC2 they're some joke (tank, instead of DPS).

TheKRoc

United States74 Posts

August 07 2011 03:56 GMT

#136

On August 07 2011 12:51 Kovaz wrote:
I wouldn't put too much stock into the Korean protoss winrates. There's so few of them that it basically comes down to MC having a weak month and all of a sudden the winrate plummets. Watch, if MC goes deep in the next GSL, protoss is going to look so OP.

This is true for any race, to a point; those who lead the race in terms of skill and results generally set the tempo for much of that race's players.

It's because, to be frank, most people copy the most successful players.

Teim

Australia373 Posts

August 07 2011 03:57 GMT

#137

Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.

HolyArrow

United States7116 Posts

August 07 2011 03:58 GMT

#138

On August 07 2011 12:56 skrzmark wrote:

Show nested quote +

Hi, Jinro. I didn't mean the charge upgrade but the speed increase they get from upgrading charge. I dunno Zealots were so beastly in SCBW but in SC2 they're some joke (tank, instead of DPS).

Jinro probably understood you. The thing is that even if Zealots started with Charge-level speed it would be pretty broken. You could mass Zealots and marines would be completely and utterly helpless - even with the Zealot's normal speed, kiting with marines early on is barely possible, and the Zealot still gets hits in.

Shield

Bulgaria4824 Posts

August 07 2011 03:59 GMT

#139

On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.

Oh, you mean Terrans waited for the metagame to shift? I thought everyone asked for P nerf.

HolyArrow

United States7116 Posts

August 07 2011 03:59 GMT

#140

On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.

Yeah, I wish that mindset was used when we got KA taken out of the game following a period of comparable Protoss dominance a while back... -_-;;