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On August 07 2011 12:58 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 12:56 skrzmark wrote:On August 07 2011 12:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent. Decent as in never losing another game to terran? Hi, Jinro. I didn't mean the charge upgrade but the speed increase they get from upgrading charge. I dunno Zealots were so beastly in SCBW but in SC2 they're some joke (tank, instead of DPS). Jinro probably understood you. The thing is that even if Zealots started with Charge-level speed it would be pretty broken. You could mass Zealots and marines would be completely and utterly helpless - even with the Zealot's normal speed, kiting with marines early on is barely possible, and the Zealot still gets hits in.
Stalkers are too fast and Zealots end up being behind the stalkers instead of in front of where they're suppose to be even though they aren't faster than stalkers with the speed upgrade it keeps them up front more.
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On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent.
That's a horrible idea. Think it out a bit more before suggesting something like that. You thought concussive marauders were bad? That was a tier 1.5 upgrade for a tier 1.5 unit. You're talking about giving a tier 1 unit a tier 2 upgrade.
On August 07 2011 13:00 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 12:58 HolyArrow wrote:On August 07 2011 12:56 skrzmark wrote:On August 07 2011 12:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent. Decent as in never losing another game to terran? Hi, Jinro. I didn't mean the charge upgrade but the speed increase they get from upgrading charge. I dunno Zealots were so beastly in SCBW but in SC2 they're some joke (tank, instead of DPS). Jinro probably understood you. The thing is that even if Zealots started with Charge-level speed it would be pretty broken. You could mass Zealots and marines would be completely and utterly helpless - even with the Zealot's normal speed, kiting with marines early on is barely possible, and the Zealot still gets hits in. Stalkers are too fast and Zealots end up being behind the stalkers instead of in front of where they're suppose to be even though they aren't faster than stalkers with the speed upgrade it keeps them up front more.
This is where you need to improve. There is no reason why your zealots can't be infront of your stalkers right now. Learn to control them; better management or heaven forbid 2 control groups would help.
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On August 07 2011 12:51 akalarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 12:41 AsianEcksDragon wrote:On August 07 2011 12:24 akalarry wrote:
i like how the winrates changed without any patch changes
that means people are learning and evolving. i dont think there should really be any changes for another month or so because maybe toss and zerg can learn and figure something out that will shift it back to even. give it time, one month isn't enough to start nerfing and buffing things. I don't really think that's the case. It's more like which Terran strategy is fotm and how Zerg and Protoss blind counters it the next month. so what was the strategy in may that zerg and toss blind countered last month?
Nothing. They continued dropping because they stopped mixing it up. Remember, it takes awhile for a fotm strategy to catch on with the masses and they don't have to necessarily last a month.
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On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift.
That's funny.
Void Rays got nerfed like 3 times; two times cause Terrans complained
High Templars got nerfed cause Terrans complained.
Collossi got nerfed cause Z and T complained.
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On August 07 2011 13:00 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent. That's a horrible idea. Think it out a bit more before suggesting something like that. You thought concussive marauders were bad? That was a tier 1.5 upgrade for a tier 1.5 unit. You're talking about giving a tier 1 unit a tier 2 upgrade. Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 13:00 skrzmark wrote:On August 07 2011 12:58 HolyArrow wrote:On August 07 2011 12:56 skrzmark wrote:On August 07 2011 12:50 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 07 2011 12:30 skrzmark wrote:
They need Zealot to start with charge upgraded speed and I think toss would do decent. Decent as in never losing another game to terran? Hi, Jinro. I didn't mean the charge upgrade but the speed increase they get from upgrading charge. I dunno Zealots were so beastly in SCBW but in SC2 they're some joke (tank, instead of DPS). Jinro probably understood you. The thing is that even if Zealots started with Charge-level speed it would be pretty broken. You could mass Zealots and marines would be completely and utterly helpless - even with the Zealot's normal speed, kiting with marines early on is barely possible, and the Zealot still gets hits in. Stalkers are too fast and Zealots end up being behind the stalkers instead of in front of where they're suppose to be even though they aren't faster than stalkers with the speed upgrade it keeps them up front more. This is where you need to improve. There is no reason why your zealots can't be infront of your stalkers right now. Learn to control them; better management or heaven forbid 2 control groups would help.
I know, but why would they make such a poor design like that why would a ranged unit need to be fast? They don't need to close a distance such as a Zealot needs to.
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VR all-ins have been extremely powerful in GSL. it's not done as much as 1/1/1 but whenever it's done terran usually loses.
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It's probably the maps (like belshir beach)
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On August 07 2011 13:02 AsianEcksDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 12:51 akalarry wrote:On August 07 2011 12:41 AsianEcksDragon wrote:On August 07 2011 12:24 akalarry wrote:
i like how the winrates changed without any patch changes
that means people are learning and evolving. i dont think there should really be any changes for another month or so because maybe toss and zerg can learn and figure something out that will shift it back to even. give it time, one month isn't enough to start nerfing and buffing things. I don't really think that's the case. It's more like which Terran strategy is fotm and how Zerg and Protoss blind counters it the next month. so what was the strategy in may that zerg and toss blind countered last month? Nothing. They continued dropping because they stopped mixing it up. Remember, it takes awhile for a fotm strategy to catch on with the masses and they don't have to necessarily last a month.
Bane-drops more infestor usage, and roach-ling all-in became quite popular.
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The damn BFH icon buff was too strong
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On August 07 2011 13:04 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift. That's funny. Void Rays got nerfed like 3 times; two times cause Terrans complained High Templars got nerfed cause Terrans complained. Collossi got nerfed cause Z and T complained.
and what was this collossus nerf?
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so we're more balanced in the west, and T is out of control in the east!
obviously simplified but its funny to see the differences.
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Guess It's time to whine about protoss balance.
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On August 07 2011 13:10 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 13:04 MayorITC wrote:On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift. That's funny. Void Rays got nerfed like 3 times; two times cause Terrans complained High Templars got nerfed cause Terrans complained. Collossi got nerfed cause Z and T complained. and what was this collossus nerf?
Beta Colossus
Idk i think that the early ghost usage is so devastating atm. One EMP can just be a game breaker and it also make you feel safe against 6 gate pushes.
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On August 07 2011 09:53 TheAmazombie wrote:
Well, the jump in terran wins is probably directly associated with this new strong breed of terrans from both Korea (Slayers) and Europe (Strelok, Thorzain, BratOK, and others). I love these graphs, good to see.
Well, none of those teams/players are new..
Just a shift in the meta imo. I wonder what P and Z will have to do to catch up.
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On August 07 2011 13:12 DarkRise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 13:10 fraktoasters wrote:On August 07 2011 13:04 MayorITC wrote:On August 07 2011 12:57 Teim wrote:
Ridiculous people already calling for nerfs for TvP. Didn't we learn anything from PvZ? Wait for the metagame to shift. That's funny. Void Rays got nerfed like 3 times; two times cause Terrans complained High Templars got nerfed cause Terrans complained. Collossi got nerfed cause Z and T complained. and what was this collossus nerf? Beta Colossus Idk i think that the early ghost usage is so devastating atm. One EMP can just be a game breaker and it also make you feel safe against 6 gate pushes.
o.....k...... why are we talking about beta changes? You know, changes when the game was in beta testing.
I mean if we want to talk about those lets talk about roaches.
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On August 07 2011 10:21 koolaid1990 wrote:
Protoss players have trouble because protoss players suck. I mean think about it, MC is the sole person to have made the statement "protoss is op". Now that MC has been out of korea for a while, people can't be influenced by his all mighty builds. An example is when MC DOMINATED july in pvz with the 6 gate build which then became popularized, then protoss was overpowered in zvp. But MC went on a break for a while, zergs learned how to use infestors, then zerg is now favored. Its simply because protoss players suck, not cuz toss sucks. 1 guy influences the whole chart fyi, like marineking's 2 rax build that favored terran in tvz by ALOT after the finals.
Thats BS, protoss players practice just as hard as the rest of the races. In my eyes protoss has always had its problems with gateway units being so weak and strong t3 units that are easily countered. Its amazing how many people were complaining about protoss months ago (they were sc2's punching bag and still are somehow even with their extremely lackluster performance recently aside from a few pro's)
Its far less likely that protoss players are just worse, they practice just as hard (if not harder because of the fact that they are struggling at the moment) its not like the protoss player pool in korea is really that small either, the zerg population seems smaller in fact, so i wouldnt use that as a factor either.
Its such a cop out to just generalize and pull an idra, and say "oh they arent winning because their players are bad".
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On August 07 2011 13:06 JoeSchmoe wrote:
VR all-ins have been extremely powerful in GSL. it's not done as much as 1/1/1 but whenever it's done terran usually loses.
Not really. If a terran suspects it's coming and is prepared(it's not THAT hard, there are pretty obvious tells, T walls, protoss takes double gas relatively early with decent amounts of chrono), they can sac 2 depots, rush a viking+tank if teching, or wait for stim, and be fine for the most part. Most of the times I see GSL terrans lose to this, they make panic errors such as having 4 marines queued up in a barracks, don't immediately start depots in safe zones, etc. Keep in mind this is a SUSPICION, and they are fine for the most part, and if scouted, has failed almost every time.
1/1/1 allin on the other hand, gets scouted most of the time, and protoss still lose a lot when it comes 2 minutes later.
They are 2 different kinds of allins. Both can kill unprepared players. Only one of them really kills prepared players with a high degree of success.
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The craziest match-up on that is the Korean ZvP, it so erratic on that graph. : P
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It's funny that for the past 3-4 months, all the QQing was about Protoss. Now, if you look at the statistics however...
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EPT
