EPTHot damn, Terran is pretty good! (according to those graphs)
[July] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs - Page 10
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
Hot damn, Terran is pretty good! (according to those graphs) | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:32 Chargelot wrote: That's funny. High Templars got nerfed because Blizzard didn't want Protoss to be able to instantly kill anything in range of a pylon. And really, you brought up the colossus? Something that hasn't changed since beta? I mean shit, I'm going to start complaining that Protoss players whined and my Concussive Shells now require an upgrade. KA got nerfed because Blizzard felt on Large maps it was too strong of a mechanic to warpin templars with energy, which is true, it made the race a lot more forgiving and was a step in the rigth direction. But now you see mass ghost play pop up, when the Ghost count reaches 10+ Ghost it becomes near impossible to stop the Terran from EMP'ing your entire army. And Zerg....as White-ra said it brilliantly yesterday "Infestors too strong [sic]" "one mistake and you lose game"  edit: Reintroducing KA is a dumb idea though, that thing needed to go away. Instead maybe Infestors (And to a lesser extent, Ghosts), need their respective upgrade also removed? | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada949 Posts
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:37 Dommk wrote: KA got nerfed because Blizzard felt on Large maps it was too strong of a mechanic to warpin templars with energy, which is true, it made the race a lot more forgiving and was a step in the rigth direction. But now you see mass ghost play pop up, when the Ghost count reaches 10+ Ghost it becomes near impossible to stop the Terran from EMP'ing your entire army. And Zerg....as White-ra said it brilliantly yesterday "Infestors too strong [sic]" "one mistake and you lose game" edit: Reintroducing KA is a dumb idea though, that thing needed to go away. Instead maybe Infestors (And to a lesser extent, Ghosts), need their respective upgrade also removed? As a Terran, I would not only say it is okay, but I would like to see an EMP nerf. I agree, it's way too strong. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:35 Amui wrote: Protoss are stronger late game. That's just a fact because otherwise we'd have shitty early, mid and late game. They aren't OP until they get around 12+gates, 3 robos, 2 stargates, a huge bank to spend and are making 3 colossus 2 voids and warping in 30 supply a cycle. .. How is that different from Terran producing MMM of 15Rax + 3Reactored Starports? Only advantage Protoss gets with warpins is the VERY first round, after that the production capacity is met by Terran. Not to mention when you get Templar tech they start putting 45second cooldowns on your gateways, so your Large gateway count isn't as big of an advantage as it looks and more of an necessity | ||
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Yew
United States940 Posts
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Chargelot
2275 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:41 Dommk wrote: .. How is that different from Terran producing MMM of 15Rax + 3Reactored Starports? Only advantage Protoss gets with warpins is the VERY first round, after that the production capacity is met by Terran. Dear God, do Terrans actually do that? | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:23 babysimba wrote: Regardless of balance, KA was just bad game design. It totally removes the need for positional awareness for toss. To some extent, warp-ins are the same. I believe this is what generates the hate for toss race, toss with no game sense can still do reasonably well. Just compare the skill level of toss vs zerg/terran in GSL, you can tell that playing toss doesn't really require a large skill set (you just need to be very good at certain stuffs). I hope HOTS can solve this issue though, making toss less of a "ball of army" race by giving them units with higher efficiency in low numbers. WOW, toss is the most micro intensive race (reason why so many wc3 players play toss) if toss is so easy to play (at a high level) then why arent protoss dominating? And why isnt everyone playing them, i mean the money in sc2 is really good right now why wouldnt everyone switch over to the easiest race? Protoss units have the most ablities in the game and also the most micro abilities no matter wich way you look at it. Your hate for protoss is clearly shining through doesnt mean you can speak for the whole community on the matter though. Thats your oppinion each race is dificult in its own way, i for one have switched to zerg for the past month and have a much easier time wining, i wouldnt say its easier but it definitely requires considerably less unit micro in terms of ground army (sure muta micro can get a bit intense but so can pheonix micro, especially with graviton beam in the mix) Can you explain to me why you think other races require a larger skillset in a concise and intelligent manner? Especially considering the win rates protoss are having to work even harder these days, and you still beleive it will require less skill then other races to get out of this winrate slump in EVERY matchup. Protoss has an inferior winrate in every matchup (im not trying to balance whine im just pointing out what the statistics represent) and you say they are the easy race? If its easy to do well with protoss shouldnt that be represented in the winrates? maybe im looking at the graph wrong. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:18 Amui wrote: Not really. If a terran suspects it's coming and is prepared(it's not THAT hard, there are pretty obvious tells, T walls, protoss takes double gas relatively early with decent amounts of chrono), they can sac 2 depots, rush a viking+tank if teching, or wait for stim, and be fine for the most part. Most of the times I see GSL terrans lose to this, they make panic errors such as having 4 marines queued up in a barracks, don't immediately start depots in safe zones, etc. Keep in mind this is a SUSPICION, and they are fine for the most part, and if scouted, has failed almost every time. 1/1/1 allin on the other hand, gets scouted most of the time, and protoss still lose a lot when it comes 2 minutes later. They are 2 different kinds of allins. Both can kill unprepared players. Only one of them really kills prepared players with a high degree of success. there are no obvious tells. the toss won't double gas before killing your scouting SCV with a stalker and you don't need to need to start saving chronos until you start the stargate. the only way to scout it is with lucky scans or random scv scout in case of proxy. early scouting is a issue for all races imo. as for holding it off, you can probably 3rax before CC but that's a bad build. 2 rax expand? maybe if you double bunker but still hard because VRs circle around to mineral line to draw marines and then you attack from front with stalkers. but heads up VR all-ins beats 1/1/1 almost all the time. you won't have enough marines in time because of putting reactor on rax and VRs destroy buildings faster than banshee. We saw a example of this with ganzi vs hongun. as for 1/1/1 all-ins. I doubt that you can't hold it if the toss knows its coming from the start. every time i see that works the toss has gone for an early expand. but of course the toss doesn't know the 1/1/1 all-in is coming when they first see the first banshee. it could be 1/1/1 expand w/banshee harass. so toss puts down nexus assuming a CC is going up for the terran in the main, but of course toss has no way of knowing w/o robo/stargate tech. TL;DR basically i think both all-ins can be mitigated if early scouting for both races is improved. probably more so for protoss because you can get lucky scans. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:37 Dommk wrote: KA got nerfed because Blizzard felt on Large maps it was too strong of a mechanic to warpin templars with energy, which is true, it made the race a lot more forgiving and was a step in the rigth direction. But now you see mass ghost play pop up, when the Ghost count reaches 10+ Ghost it becomes near impossible to stop the Terran from EMP'ing your entire army. And Zerg....as White-ra said it brilliantly yesterday "Infestors too strong [sic]" "one mistake and you lose game" edit: Reintroducing KA is a dumb idea though, that thing needed to go away. Instead maybe Infestors (And to a lesser extent, Ghosts), need their respective upgrade also removed? I strongly disagree with the comparison between ghosts and templars. While getting 10+ ghosts pretty much guarantees a shieldless Protoss ball, the flipside of 10+ templar means a healthless Terran ball, ie dead. Beyond that, with the archon buff, "used" templar become formidable units against all Terran bio, while "used" ghosts are good against zealots (and only marginally at that). The strongest point of all of this is that overmaking ghosts almost NEVER helps you, especially when that ghost could be 2+ marines or 1+ marauders. It has been said many times that if you lose to EMPs, it has more to do with another problem with your play (like bad unit comp or macro) and less because of the EMPs that landed. How many times do you watch pro games that are literally engorged with thoughts and commentary of "BEAUTIFUL EMPS!" yet the Terran never outright gains the advantage from those battles? EMPs usually play a cumulative role, slowly turning the battles in the Terran's favor until (s)he is just too cost efficient in the long run. On the flip-side, "beautiful" storms and fungals often cause the entire game to swing in favor of those that pull them off. To nerf EMP AGAIN, there's very little point in making even the few that the Terrans are making now. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
It has been said many times that if you lose to EMPs, it has more to do with another problem with your play (like bad unit comp or macro) and less because of the EMPs that landed. How many times do you watch pro games that are literally engorged with thoughts and commentary of "BEAUTIFUL EMPS!" yet the Terran never outright gains the advantage from those battles Do you mean games like MC vs Puma where Puma out right won games against MC when he was 30 food behind by landing 3 EMP's? When The ghost count gets high not only does it guarantee a shieldless Protoss but it also means that Templars are no longer a factor. When was the last time you saw 10 Templars ever manage to toe to toe with 10 Ghosts? It just isn't possible, it makes them a complete deficit. The advantage that Terran gets is that a Templar less, Shieldless Protoss is vastly inferior to a Terran army. To say "there's very little point in making even the few that the Terrans are making now" is absurd considering EVERY single Terran is going mass ghost lategame against Protoss. I don't think there needs to be a nerf to EMP at all, but just like Infestors the benefit of over making them shouldn't be soo strong but I don't want to keep going on with this. TvP is relatively fine these days, it is just the 1/1/1 all-ins that have been crushing Protoss left and right, and there is very little Protoss can do, even if scouted  | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:52 JoeSchmoe wrote: but heads up VR all-ins beats 1/1/1 almost all the time. I think it'd be more helpful to link to somebody who's higher level than 99% of the posters on TL http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753 specifically possiblity 3. 1/1/1 is actually stronger than a Xrax without stim opening against VR allins because you get microable units that outrange voidrays and stalkers respectively. | ||
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nt-rAven
Canada405 Posts
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babysimba
10466 Posts
To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts. Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing. Forgot to add: I haven't seen nestea lost a single game against stargate play, besides that 1 game against anypro where his OL scouted mass gateways and anypro canceled and go 2 stargates. | ||
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WinteRR
Australia201 Posts
One statistic that I'd absolutely love to see is MU win percentages @ specific points of time in a game. I.E. T win % vs P @ 12:00 or less or P v Z win % @ 14mins or later etc etc. Although it's quite hard to produce, such specificity would give a greater depth to statistics in SC (because of how dynamic the variables are). | ||
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nt-rAven
Canada405 Posts
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Disquiet
Australia628 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On August 07 2011 14:25 babysimba wrote: lol at the number of toss whining at my post. Tell me where exactly in my post did i say playing toss is easier OVERALL. I'm quite sure i only mentioned toss players in general being weak in positional awareness currently due to reliance of their race mechanics, though there are exceptions like sage. To those who think toss is having a slump now is due to how the race is weak, but not the low caliber of toss players instead, do tell me which players are actually close to MC. His unit control, more importantly his game understanding. Who else plant down 2 stargates on 3 and make a tech switch at that timing of the game. Who else plant down 3 robos late game and tech switch between colo and immortal+hts. Who else uses warp prism speed or phoenixes to deal with mech and upgrade observer speed to deal with cloaked ghosts. Majority of toss players (including pros) just copy his builds blindly without understanding what he's doing. For example, look at the number of players doing stargate play in PvZ. They don't even realise half of MC's stargate wins are actually coming from behind in the late game. He does it because he knows stargate is immune to early aggression, and he's good enough to take any lesser zergs in late game. Do continue have fun getting stomped by 2 base hydras before gateways kick in or getting swarmed by the economy of fast 3 bases. Yes to stargate play with zealots tempo based play, but not stargate followed up with stalker based 6 gate timing. Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible? Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose long macro games to mediocre Zergs like he did in the GSTL | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
On August 07 2011 14:33 Dommk wrote: Yes, because people like Puzzle, Naniwa, Sage, etc all have no idea what they are doing right? They all do Stargate openings, if you don't think they are trying to win then you have a screw lose. They out of everyone are the people who try the most to try win, so why always do an inferior strategy over and over if apparently it is terrible? Koreans aren't idiots, they live in team houses with fellow team mates of every race, it is not like they are completely oblivious, there are reasons for doing what they do. Stop acting as if you have this grand knowledge of how Protoss works that some how these people haven't figured out Comparing regular Protoss players to MC is like comparing people like Curious to NesTea. But even then, being as good as MC doesn't mean he can't lose to mediocre Zergs like in the GSTL Wrong examples to put out. Puzzle and naniwa weakest matchups are PvZ. Puzzle has personally admitted on his stream. | ||
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