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Tbe tournament entrance fees from starcraft alone are more than the prize pool, let alone all the stream hq purchases, I guarentee the satellite trucks costs more than the stracraft pool everytime they hire it. I guarentee the costs of flights and accomodation for the korean imports (only the four paid for by mlg) cost almost as much if not more than the entire starraft prize pool. And I bet that atleast 90% of the viewrs ESPECIALLY the hq paying ones only pay to watch starcraft, and yet with all the popluarity that starcraft 2 has brought MLG, bringing it from a small time shitty BRO XBORX HALOCOD lan to something amazing in terms of stream views and crowd, they still disrepespect the players themselves but putting up a horrific prize pool. Just look at IPL their 2nd season of an only online tournament absolutely dominates MLGs prize pool, and I understand that their overheads are lower with not having to rent large places for crowds to fit and all the electronic equipment.
I could understand for the first few tournaments when bringing in starcraft 2 was an unknown quality (really?) but now they can clearly see it crazy popular and overshadows everything else about MLG so they should respect the players who make it worth watching, (cos god kmnows the rest of it is garbage) and pay them money that actually makes it worthwhile to go. If they dont greatly increase their prize pool, and other offline tournaments spring up with better prize pools, I could see MLG going quiet real quick.
The only reaon its puplated by good players is advertising withteams getting good value in terms of advertising so it becomes worthwhile for the teams to send teir players, but for the players themselves if they had to pay their own way (especially ANY european/korean) players the "stackedness" of the tournament would drastically fall.
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On July 30 2011 17:43 Jibba wrote:![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Snake-oil.png) I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record. GosuCoaching v.1 GosuCamp GosuGuide GosuBodyMassage And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz. MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit. Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2. You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
i was gonna write something, then i found out someone wrote it out for me. good lookin' out, man.
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I don't follow the scene as much as I used to, but it seems that EG is drawing a LOT of negative press lately. Incontrol shouldn't try to add to the bad press.
EG just comes out looking more Evil than Genius.
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Incontrol basically said what everyone was originally thinking about this announcement (which was very vague), heck FXO Boss was even critical of this. Now that sundance came in and gave a motivational speech and suddenly everyone is up in arms against incontrol.
Particularly funny to see the reddit incontrol hate bandwagon jump on this one.
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On July 30 2011 18:50 Enzyme wrote:I bought a pass as soon as they announced Ad Free, then found out it was also 720p, and couldn't have been happier. With this announcement, I'm tempted to buy a second membership just to watch two streams at once 
There is the ultra stream, which I THINK is 1080, but unfortunately for me, my line tops out at ~780kB/s and the 1080 takes probably ~800, which means I get minor spikes every few seconds. Of course since I want to watch 2 streams at once I have to have one at high and one at mid =(. My brother would've bought his own membership if my household internet wasn't so bad =/.
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I have to say the way Sundance announced it was not the best, and could be understood the wrong way but his post on TL explains well his reasons. He wants to know if what he is putting his time and his money is worth it. MLG has proven that they can deliver a very good product by investing a lot of money in the production. Now they have to show that they have viable business model.
Do we really want companies throwing tons of money in e-sport with no viable business plan? No we want MLG to win money and keep growing, and what Sundance was saying is that if 100 000 memberships is not possible to achieve, it will probably not be possible to sustain events like MLG is doing.
TL DR: I bought my MLG gold membership, it's really cheap and it's really helping creating a good, solid base for e-sport in the west ( 30 $ for a year? lol it's like 5 beers at a pub)
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On July 30 2011 17:53 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 17:14 Jibba wrote:On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote:
Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing! It's certainly better than begging people to buy passes for an unaired, unrefined product for the sake of ESPORTS. MLG at least has a stated goal/incentive, and some history behind their work. Surely even you can't miss the irony of your statement. You don't like losing arguments on the internet, we get it. But you really can't expect to carry this one through with any semblance of a viable argument. Ask IdrA or Tyler or any other logical forum addict you can think of. They'll tell you you're being hypocritical on this. Once upon a time you could criticize MLG for this or asking people to buy shirts. That time has long since passed. Anyways, I ended up getting the Gold Membership. I'm mostly watching EVO all weekend so I want the VODs, plus I decided to buy something from MLG after how well Columbus went. good post. incontrol is turning into a community joke. I mean jesus christ does incontrol have a switch in his brain to govern his posting? Has he always been like this? It seems as though he has this sense of entitlement now because he played BW and hung around this scene a long time. I think his relative fame for being a comedian on a podcast and over charging derps for coaching has gone to his head. Comeback to reality incontrol or just burn out and go away, you aren't as important as you think you are.
I guess what you're trying to say is that incontrol is.... out of control.
I think that maybe we can all get along and do our best to support esports without ripping into eachother? We're all on the same side of the esports fence right guys.
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So in one of the posts, Sundance mentioned that there would be something 24 live events? What exactly does that mean? While I love MLG, I think having it too often would end up hurting it by making it more diluted and less interesting, so I can't imagine they will do that... so what exactly are all these other live events? Small tournaments? Shows? Sorry if this isn't the place to ask, but I'm not sure where else to ask or look.
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On July 30 2011 18:56 ReaperX wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 18:23 m2e wrote:
Yay, another thread where incontrol says something dumb and starts an argument with someone whos trying to progress the community!
If no one ever heard from incontrol again, no one would miss him and the SC2 community would be in a lot better position. All this guy constantly does is push peoples buttons and says controversial things on purpose in order to get a rise out of people for no real reason just because he wants a quick laugh and reaction from his sack riders. He does this constantly and somehow people are still suprised everytime... What you're accusing iNcontroL is doing is what you're doing. Shut up.
Not even close, but try harder. Maybe if I tried to push myself onto a community and tried to become this community figure while being a bigot, hypocrite and a passive aggresive asshole you'd have a reason to compare me to incontrol. Point being, incontrol is a person who's looking to disrupt and distract with no legitimate reason or leg to stand on and that's why people are against him. This is only the 500th time he's pulled a stunt like this in a place of public discussion and in a week's time (or less) he'll come out and apologize and let us know he was out of line, how hes going to watch what he says and how hes sorry all while people like you will soak it up and accept it. No one should be tolerating this from incontrol anymore, it's beyond dumb at this point. He does this constantly and will continue to do so just because he has a legion of fanboy's who will accept every apology no matter what he says. It's like if he has a permanent get out of jail free card just because hes been around a while and that should not be the case for anyone.
So please hop off 
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On July 30 2011 17:43 Jibba wrote:I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record. GosuCoaching v.1 GosuCamp GosuGuide GosuBodyMassage And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz. MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit. Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2. You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
Wow. dat post. Great job Jibba.
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On July 30 2011 02:41 SundanceMLG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2011 14:20 iNcontroL wrote:
Uhhh if you give me a million dollars I will raise the prizepool??? Wow! That is amazing! Months ago you gave me shit about the prize pool and now I'm putting a simple and obtainable goal out there for the entire community and you give me shit again - and that's fine. I still respect you and appreciate what you've done and will continue to do for the scene. My question is this - if the number was 50,000 would you take an issue with my approach? How about 15,000? What if I didn't say a thing and just watched my spreadsheets populate with numbers and kept the community in the dark? Shouldn't the people who love this have some insight into what is needed for success? You're either in or you're out. $30 a year from 100,000 people makes this company a real business and not just a passion project from a guy with a hippy name who refuses to quit. $30 a year from 10,000 people means that we're all wrong and there isn't enough fan support to sustain a business of scale. Less than a dime a day from less than 10% of the people who visit our site over the course of an event weekend allows me to flip a switch and change next year to a structure that supports 24 live events & 28 meaningful ladders. 52 competitions with nearly 2 million dollars of prize money and stipends. Again - I don't care if you think I'm an asshole or a money grubbing prick. I just want to find out if what we do is actually meaningful to enough of you to step up.
Very well said. You are the man Mr. Sundance and that post was pretty awesome imo. No bull.
That being said, I like making deals. So here is my offer. Release the replays from Anaheim and all future MLG events and I will purchase the $30.00 gold pass, as long as I'm still playing and spectating SC2, in addition to the live spectator pass I get every time yall are in Dallas.
Let me know! Either way <3 MLG
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On July 30 2011 17:43 Jibba wrote:I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record. GosuCoaching v.1 GosuCamp GosuGuide GosuBodyMassage And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz. MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit. Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2. You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
This is exactly how I feel also. Like I posted earlier I appreciate Sundance for coming to community sites and tweeting and interacting with the community. He shouldn't have to defend him self over everything he says. He set a goal and pointed out the obvious that if he can't meet it then he is wrong about everything he has been doing and expecting to accomplish. GL MLG I have a ticket but I damn near want to get another one now. I'm sorry that you get so much slack from some of our community for just trying to do your job.
P.S: Incontrol it is unfair of you to make Sundance out to be greedy or making threats. You of all people should know how easily things can be taken out of context and made to make you look bad. The last time I spoke to you all I got was direction to Gosucoaching.com. Whats so sad is I remember you from x17 8 years ago letting me jump in and obs games with the "gosus". Times change I guess as do people. GL either way and I still hope the best for you at MLG and for your team.
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you would of thought Inctontrol would know better seeing that he was also running a very succesfull league and should know that sponsers etc only go so far... He also didnt seem to mind tyring to get people to subscribe for NASL in similar ways probably without even going into it which sundance has...
mayb just me but I have gone from likeing Incontrol and his sarcy comments before he started doing NASL, but since he started that project and others and the Demuslim spat in the forums to absolutly loathing him and the bad press he gives EG....
Do we want MLG to start scaling down or do we want a tournament which is seen by many as better then the GSL??Im glad they are up front and honest and have the same goals that many of us want to be the biggest and the best tournament in the world.
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Has anyone seen gosuguide.com ?
It made me LOL !
Even more lol's as I scrolled down !
OMG best ending ever + Show Spoiler +GAME LAUNCH SALE!! We've slashed our price from $149.95 to $99.95
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TL <3 the drama. If iccontrol is wrong in his sentiment, why not just ignore it? All you're doing with keeping this thread alive is feeding what is wrong, and what incontrol did wrong, namely overreacting. I think we can all agree MLG is giving us a great product and incontrol reacted prematurely to what was basically a less than informative tweet and more of a teaser of things that might come.
tl;dr:
Shut up, stop hating and enjoy MLG.
edit: To clarify, not hating on thread topic, just all the people going completly offtopic and turning it in to a shit-throwing contest.
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On July 30 2011 17:43 Jibba wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record. GosuCoaching v.1 GosuCamp GosuGuide GosuBodyMassage And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz. MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit. Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2. You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks. "
amazing post
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On July 30 2011 17:43 Jibba wrote:I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record. GosuCoaching v.1 GosuCamp GosuGuide GosuBodyMassage And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz. MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit. Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2. You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
Thank you for eloquently and efficiently stating what I'm sure quite a few people having been thinking.
You can disagree with Sundance's methods all you want, but at least have the decency to write up a cogent argument if you're going to chime in. Especially when you're someone who touts that prominent members of the E-Sports community should hold themselves to a higher standard. Instead we saw the forum equivalent of a child thumbing his nose and sticking his tongue out.
MLGs performance thus far has been stellar. They've proven that they're listening to the community time and time again. They've had their highs, they've had their lows. However, it's the performance during the lows that really bring out an organization's true colors. When Sundance was personally replying to numerous concerned/angry tweets from customers (even the ad-hominems) throughout the problems at MLG Dallas in the most mature fashion, you can't deny the man was giving his all.
We've clearly come a long way since then. Why don't we take the advice iNcontroL gave to people who were upset at the subpar opening of the NASL: Focus on the positive and support these guys who are doing their best to further E-Sports.
Or just be sarcastic and biting. That works t-
...Oh wait, it doesn't
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On July 30 2011 19:08 Jetaap wrote:
He wants to know if what he is putting his time and his money is worth it. MLG has proven that they can deliver a very good product by investing a lot of money in the production. Now they have to show that they have viable business model.
Do we really want companies throwing tons of money in e-sport with no viable business plan? No we want MLG to win money and keep growing, and what Sundance was saying is that if 100 000 memberships is not possible to achieve, it will probably not be possible to sustain events like MLG is doing.
This is foolish thinking.
If you have done work in the event management field then you would have a general idea of your:
- fixed costs/expenses/other
- methods of revenue raising
- ratio of prize money etc.
I can tell you from experience that MLG is making alot more than 90% of people posting on this forum potentially think.
Incontrol is correct in his thinking, though its a conflict of interest because of his work for NASL.
Ideally what you want is Transparency in MLG model which is not going to happen.
Here is a funny comparison which should get you all thinking:
Australian Lan:
1st: $8000.00 + New Computer (valued at $1700 USD)
2nd: $2000.00 + New Computer (Valued at $1700 USD)
3rd $1000.00 + Hardware valued at $400 USD
Places 4th-9th get on average $300 USD in prizes.
Entry Cost: $20.00
Total Players Participated: About 60.
It should be noted that this was not streamed anywhere, and the entry cost did not come close to covering the prize pool whatsoever.
Something wrong here?.. Think about it.
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I think iNcontrol may have a point here, however I feel he has expressed himself poorly in this thread.
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On July 30 2011 05:36 Beyonder wrote:
Haha, dont overanalyze this too much, its not needed. Silly tweet, sarcastic deserved comment. That was it :D Noone is making drama but you guys ^_^
I COMPLETELY agree...Chill Out and go troll Reddit...
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EPT
