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Sad truth is, money talks, it doesn't talk to us fans as loudly as it talks to Sundances sponsors and so forth, and any possible investors, they want an ROI also. The more "Profit" he makes the better it is for the business on the papers, they will also ask him how much he makes, if he makes too much, they would ask him if he'd be willing to take a pay cut to increase costs and invest further in the business.
IMO wanting 100k subscribers(or even more) is an acceptable thing.
Sundance, runs his business one way, NASL runs it another way, MLG has had it's shares of problems so does NASL both also have positive points, and negative points, but that actually doesn't matter much to anyone other than the fans.
In the end it's the people who Sundance has to talk to get to invest into his own business, and here's a tiny lesson, it's better to have a business where you don't have to invest any of your money into it so you have no chance of losing money, yeah he wants your money, that's a better plan then him investing 3 million of his own dollars into it though.
What was a bad idea is obviously threatening to lower the pool, and then him saying it might not be joking, regardless of which game it is. We know he's making money back on this, but he wants to make more profit which is smart.
Sundance<3 only problem is you are too business in a public forum(Though it's public >.>, and you are a fan yourself.)
And Incontrol, Gretorp love you guys too.
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Im sorry to burst everyone's bubble but...
Australian Lans have better prize pools than MLG.
You guys in the US are getting the shaft in terms of $$$ USD.
The only thing you get is the chance to go Code A or Code S.
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On July 30 2011 20:15 Azz wrote:
Im sorry to burst everyone's bubble but...
Australian Lans have better prize pools than MLG.
You guys in the US are getting the shaft in terms of $$$ USD.
The only thing you get is the chance to go Code A or Code S.
You realize MLG for starcraft last year was very small and had a small prize pool based on participation from that? Also MLG isn't just a few guys with a ton of money to throw at a small lan, it's a company with employees. Paying for shit like the stream and the venue is expensive as hell as it is.
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I'm sorry if I sound disrespectful and ignorant but 5000$ is ..yeah I'll just say it, laughable. We are talking about potentially 100k subscribers here, renting a ~3-4k square meter place for 3 days, tons of tons of computers and all the infrastructure to be able to manage this whole awesome event. But however, the event itself is beyond good, keep it up!
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I think MLG set the $5000 prize pool months ago based off the cap that Blizzard put on tournaments. Maybe that was a mistake, and maybe they were just being conservative not really knowing how big this was going to get for SC2.
I think that MLG now knows they have huge product here. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt for now because they are giving great entertainment. I really think the tour stops will be a much larger prize pool next year.
For now, be positive. Enjoy the show.
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On July 30 2011 20:15 Azz wrote:
Im sorry to burst everyone's bubble but...
Australian Lans have better prize pools than MLG.
You guys in the US are getting the shaft in terms of $$$ USD.
The only thing you get is the chance to go Code A or Code S.
Sorry to tell you mate, but they prize pool in America may be smaller, but the dollar goes farther, as well.
Crazy taxes and all you pay down under...
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I love you, Geoff. You put a lot of thought into what you do and are a great entertainer. You're not always filtering what you're saying though. I have backed you when you have said some of the dumbest things you could have possibly said at the moment, but this is just a step too far. Is this really coming from someone who begged us to buy HD passes for NASL? The biggest disappointment that has come out of SC2?
What gives you right to bash MLG for making an honest attempt to help you have a very extravagant life for playing a video game? Fuck, man. I even said at Columbus that if people are hating on you, you're doing something right. I was absolutely right. You hating on MLG for trying to do something great for our game is showing that they are doing something not only right, but great.
Way to bite the hand that feeds, if only because others are getting more food than you.
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On July 30 2011 20:33 holycrapitsTony wrote:
I love you, Geoff. You put a lot of thought into what you do and are a great entertainer. You're not always filtering what you're saying though. I have backed you when you have said some of the dumbest things you could have possibly said at the moment, but this is just a step too far. Is this really coming from someone who begged us to buy HD passes for NASL? The biggest disappointment that has come out of SC2?
What gives you right to bash MLG for making an honest attempt to help you have a very extravagant life for playing a video game? Fuck, man. I even said at Columbus that if people are hating on you, you're doing something right. I was absolutely right. You hating on MLG for trying to do something great for our game is showing that they are doing something not only right, but great.
Way to bite the hand that feeds, if only because others are getting more food than you.
Nothing new from iNcontroL. He doesn't really try to win any popularity contests with his posts.
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I would much rather MLG played it the way they have done, build up a solid and sustainable tournament first and then look at prize pools later. The amount they have invested in each event really shows and I would much rather watch an MLG with excellent production, great casting in a fantastic venue with a great crowd competing for a small prize pool than watch an over hyped production nightmare with a huge prize pool.
MLG can pull crowds in like they have in Anaheim and bring in world class players from around the world to compete while not having a headline grabbing prize pool. More power to them if you ask me.
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i'm going to get a membership just for esports sake
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[QUOTE]On July 30 2011 19:59 LegionUK wrote:
I think iNcontrol may have a point here, however I feel he has expressed himself poorly in this thread.[/Q]
Imcontrol has been fair game for trolling for a long time, and he gained a lot of new fans when state of the game was at its popularity height, but when all the drama with him leaving that and state of the game disappearing for a while him starting his own similar show with other people and sponsors and money stated appearring, I think he became basically troll target number (unfairly in my opinion) and any thread he posts in is going to get shit on from then on the only point I tried to make was that as far as ratios of money spent on an event and the money the make for that event the pro make for that event in terms of stream HQ sales, advertising revenues, merchandising and even the player entrance fees themselves MLG is clearly the lowest out of probably EVERY SINGLE TOURAMENT.
Now Im not saying that the old traditions of tournaments always being in the red as far as profits and the business side of them goes, like only managing to put up one or 2 events before the company closing down is the way they should run, and the should be congratulated for running succesfully for this long, I don't think ANYONE canput up a good argument for why for an event of its size the tournment player fee add up to more than the prize pool for the players themselves. For all the enterainment value the players put in, the time and money put in to maintaing their skills levels, the player group as a whole is BETTER OFF staying at home and keeping their money and then when you add in the costs of flight/ transportation and accomodation it becomes a joke. No doubt Some players would lose money entering this tournament even if they come in 3rd or 4th if their teams werent paying their way into the tournment, hell I cant say for sure but I wouldnt be surprised if a ppleyer coming in 2nd didnt even make a profit from that point of view.
I don't see how this can be sustainable for all the teams and players coming in from overseas, and clearly the only reason anyone is coming in from overseas is the fact that MLG itself has manged to find a good audiene and far as advertising number come in which is why it mangges o seem profitable enough for the teams to get enough exposure themselves to make it worthwhile to pay the players way. But as far as the non-salaried players go Those that dont make the top 16 (which is like what 4 of the non pool players) they will lose money just paying for their meals.
It is always reasonable for smaller tournaments, and indeed necesary for them to have fees for players to pay for computers internet set up etc, but when The competition consists of many internation superstars of the E-sport in question, why are they paying more for the "PRIVILEGE" of playing MLGs tournament than the potential payout of the whole event. I see nothing wrong with the "Hey heres randoms that want to play 75$(or whatever the actual cost is) to have the chance of getting smashed by a pro" putting in money to add to the pot but its so frustrating knowing that the players will not even see all of that money, but that the AWESOME MLG sundance will be taking that money home. Again its great that they are bringing in koreans so that MLG is actually competitive in the international starcraft 2 scene, but the fact that they spend more money on flying them in that the prize pool is an insult also. In my opinion the money should be right on the prize pool so that the prize pool itself makes the tournament worth their time and effort in competing, so thet the teams and players will spend the money themselves showing that MLG is really a worthy competition rather than buying the best players in, and if that means that the competition isn't guarenteed to have koreans playing then so be it. You can see now that some korean teams have started partnering with international teams for international teams for the money to fly them over, and even some lower level koreans pros outright trading to international teams, that the inherant advertising values of these tournaments is enough for the teams to support flying in pros its easy to see that MLG has enough money to be paying the wiiners what they are worth too.
I think in time MLG will be p[aying out much better (and more fair prize pools) but it will only be because as other and more up and coming foreign tournments find their feet in north america (Eurpoe seems to be already comping quite well in this regard with (ESL IEM Dreamhack etc)
And NASL improves its broadcast quality and LIVE tournaments, perhaps IPL has a live finisher next season then perhaps more live tournaments, FXO starting their live tournments (in malaysia but you get the idea) and we know they have no problems throwing decent money at good players.
It just seems a shame that MLG so outright shames the players with pathetic pay.
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On July 30 2011 20:33 holycrapitsTony wrote:
I love you, Geoff. You put a lot of thought into what you do and are a great entertainer. You're not always filtering what you're saying though. I have backed you when you have said some of the dumbest things you could have possibly said at the moment, but this is just a step too far. Is this really coming from someone who begged us to buy HD passes for NASL? The biggest disappointment that has come out of SC2?
What gives you right to bash MLG for making an honest attempt to help you have a very extravagant life for playing a video game? Fuck, man. I even said at Columbus that if people are hating on you, you're doing something right. I was absolutely right. You hating on MLG for trying to do something great for our game is showing that they are doing something not only right, but great.
Way to bite the hand that feeds, if only because others are getting more food than you.
Pretty much sums it up. I don't see why there is such controversy over something that will help the players and the game we love watching. iNcontrol is being extremely hypocritical, when 3 or so months ago he was begging for people to buy NASL HD passes.
Sundance <3
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On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote:I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG. MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize. Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward. Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors. As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for. TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools. You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money.
This.
Finally someone who understands how business works.
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On July 30 2011 20:31 FunnelC4kes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 20:15 Azz wrote:
Im sorry to burst everyone's bubble but...
Australian Lans have better prize pools than MLG.
You guys in the US are getting the shaft in terms of $$$ USD.
The only thing you get is the chance to go Code A or Code S.
Sorry to tell you mate, but they prize pool in America may be smaller, but the dollar goes farther, as well. Crazy taxes and all you pay down under...
The Australian dollar is worth more than america at the moment, and Im not quite sure what you are referring to when you say crazy taxes either? Some things are more expensive some are also cheaper, Things more expensive here are basically fast food, brand name products(nike etc), consumer electronics and video games, but not really a huge deal in my opinion consdering crime, prison population, health care, social security, job unions/labor laws, military spending, community attitudes, racism, homphobia, education etc.
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United States473 Posts
I love how all the people in this thread are complaining about the prize pool when it literally doesn't affect them one little bit.
The players will still play MLG's and you will still get to watch. The prize pool, as long as it's somewhat worth playing for, is irrelevant to 99.99999% of TL. The tournament format however.....
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On July 30 2011 20:49 adeptz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 03:47 kentarre wrote:I think a lot of people are simply not understanding the business aspect of MLG. MLG is a company, funded by venture capital. To date, they have raised ~52.5 million dollars (source: http://www.industrygamers.com/releases/18597/). They were founded in 2002, and while I don't have the raw stats on hand, ~35 millionw as raised in 2006, ~10 million raised in 2010. The other 6-7 million were spread across the remaining years. Venture capital is being raised for companies for various reasons, the main are 1) the company has a promising business model, but not enoguh capital to push it forward; or 2) the company has a very popular service and audience, but the business model is not entirely stable yet and requires capital to stablize. Again, without knowing anything regarding the insides of how MLG functions or utilizes its finances, I am of the opinion that MLG falls under category 2. In that MLG has proven it has a large audience, it is a popular service, however the source of revenue to provide such an ongoing service is shakey. Now this is partly the fault of MLG on some points. The choice to provide full HQ streaming for the last MLG event was done at cost to MLG. This was a service towards the fans that was not up to par for the amount of money they asked for, so they had to take the hit and go forward. Now take the time into consideration. This is end of July rolling into August of 2011. In business terms this is the middle of Q3. In order to secure additional funding (if its needed), or to prove that it has a strong business model, MLG needs to prove that it can make enough revenue that it can stand on its own two feet. Or it needs to make a sizable growth in that direction to prove to investors. As Sundance mentioned, a 10% interest in membership from its audience is not unreasonable, especially from an investment stand point. Spotify (a recent launch in NA but huge following in EU) only yields a 10-15% return on their premium membership services. 10% is a ballpark low number for any investor to be looking for. TLDR: what this really means is that if Sundance, and by extension MLG, can prove that eSports fans are willing to invest in paid services for better viewing and playing experiences, that looks AWESOME to investors. Investors will whip out their checkbooks and invest more into MLG. MLG will in return get more funding and be able to expand further. This is why Sundance said he can close the deal and push out more tournaments, ladders, and higher prize pools. You want eSports to push forward? Put up the money. This. Finally someone who understands how business works.
I think this shows that Starcraft 2 has basically revived MLG and if it wasnt for MLGs sudden amazing growth in viewers, and money going in it would probably be bankrupt by now, and MLG is paying the progamers that made it all happen a slap in the face.
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On July 30 2011 19:25 Mogui wrote:
TL <3 the drama. If iccontrol is wrong in his sentiment, why not just ignore it? All you're doing with keeping this thread alive is feeding what is wrong, and what incontrol did wrong, namely overreacting. I think we can all agree MLG is giving us a great product and incontrol reacted prematurely to what was basically a less than informative tweet and more of a teaser of things that might come.
tl;dr:
Shut up, stop hating and enjoy MLG.
edit: To clarify, not hating on thread topic, just all the people going completly offtopic and turning it in to a shit-throwing contest.
Thanks for joining the community and within 3 posts suggesting to everyone how to behave, people are passionate about this game and the community and will say things they feel, how about you take your own advice and ignore posts you don't agree with?
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On July 30 2011 03:10 Nausea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2011 03:09 Art_of_Kill wrote:
i just say so much: event time for europe 2am - 8am, i dont see why anyone would watch let alone buy hd stream I'm in europe, i will watch and i've bought a pass.
I would rather by an HD pass for NASL or IPL, that restream their content at times that I can comfortably watch.
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On July 30 2011 17:43 Jibba wrote:![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Snake-oil.png) I don't see how you possibly think it's appropriate for you to criticize another business's advertising method, especially when that business has a proven track record. GosuCoaching v.1 GosuCamp GosuGuide GosuBodyMassage And you pleaded for NASL memberships before even having broadcasted a game, and throughout the entire season while you still continued to deliver a sub par product. And throughout all that time Sundance was supportive of you! You are the #1 snake oil salesman in the SC2 community, even more than Shokz. MLG runs 3 (soon to be 4, possibly 5) different games, at 4+ events per year. For the current three games, their payout was close to $800,000. Sundance is trying to hype it to be more. Not only do more memberships (which aren't necessarily $30 - you become a member for free, you become a silver member for $10.) help them draw in sponsors, but it carries over to every other event in the next year. Sundance only mentioned the Grand Finals because that's the only one on this year's budget that's within a reasonable timeframe, and it's the most important one to hype in his 144 character limit. Do you really think he's only talking about $25,000/$50,000 more for a single SC2 event? When they've got 4/5 games and multiple events throughout the year? In the grand scheme of MLG, where it came from and what it is, look how far SC2 has come from a year ago. They plan out these events and all the production that goes into them upwards to a year in advance, and we've only seen the beginning of what's in store for SC2. You say it's underhanded to offer an incentive for giving money, but that's exactly what you did for NASL. The only difference is that Sundance was very specific about the numbers needed, and at least gave partial information about what the outcome would be. All you did was give a vague explanation about how it would help ESPORTS and how it could make NASL better in the future. And somehow that's better than what MLG did? Now Sundance has replied and clarified that he didn't just mean a single event, but that he means the entire SC2/MLG circuit can be revamped with such kind of support. Now this is where you say, "Oh, that sounds great, Sundance! Thanks for clarifying, I was wrong in my earlier remarks."
This, thanks Jibba
Bad week for EG indeed - Wonder what marketing walls they're gonna thrust their head into next..
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I just ordered a Silver membership, in part because of the totally boss post from Sundance.
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EPT
