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UbiNax
Denmark381 Posts
On July 26 2011 09:17 Shiori wrote: he deserves an apology after being accused of dishonest journalism and defamation, to say the least. Did you even hear the WoC cast? he apologized several times there if milkis took it the wrong way, which he obviously did in my opinion. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:37 GuardianEU wrote: On one hand you say we need to look at kespa, on the other hand you say we kill E-sports with contracts and rules. kespa is known for blindly following rules (player was banned because he typed ppp when he asked for a pause when his monitor died) and every competor in any kespa tounament needs to have a license and a contract to even be able to participate. There's no doubt kespa has done good things for Brood War as an E-sport, but saying we should just use kespa as an example of how it should be done is bad, when you know a lot of the TL readers don't like kespa and the way they do things. You're saying that EG ruined sc2 players because they contracted them, how so exactly? Axslav and Strifecrow didn't get pulled out of any enviroment or were stopped from going to any big event because of EG, EG simply supplied the materials needed to be competitive. And lets not forget that it was EG who sent Idra to the GSL, to help him further his career. they even brought him back when Idra stated he would be better off competing in the NA scene right now. I don't see what's so horrible about EG. The only thing EG has done is what Alex just stated in this OP. It's not disrespectful, nor is it greedy, to let a possible new member of EG talk to his coach first about the situation, by his OWN request. I actually said none of the things you say I said (which is ironic given that you're accusing me of putting words in someone's mouth). Maybe try reading again. PS. EG did not "send" Idra to GSL. He was already in Korea and practicing SC2 while he was still on CJ's roster. I recall him playing in OSL qualifiers either just before or after the first GSL Open. He's obviously not better off training and competing in the west, but he's certainly more useful to EG in the west, which is likely the main reason why he's back and stuck in the least competitive region. | ||
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StyLeD
United States2965 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:52 UbiNax wrote: Did you even hear the WoC cast? he apologized several times there if milkis took it the wrong way, which he obviously did in my opinion. Dude, you can say "No offense, but you're a lying, dishonest journalist" but you're still going to be offensive. Apologizing before you insult someone is stupid and shouldn't even be considered an apology. | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:40 GuardianEU wrote: Why are you saying puma was forced to tell it to his coach? it was puma's idea int he first place. and why is this a good way of handling it: puma: I might be interested, but could you please let me brign it up to Mr. Lee? he cared deeply for all of his players? EG: no, we'll tell him and we'll let him deal with it. this not only brings up only more tension between puma and his coach, it also makes Mr. Lee feel backstabbed even more... if you had to hear that a player was leaving your team for another, wouldn't you rather have the player himself tell you? The talk should've never been "Look PuMa is coming to us". It should've always been on the note "We're interested in PuMa". If we totally ignore that EG should've approached Mr.Lee first, the "We're interested in PuMa" conversation would've been much easier to do by EG, since PuMa talking to Mr.Lee, he basically needs to say "I'm interested in leaving"(since if he says I'm considering leaving and doesn't it will be a harder working enviroment later), which is both tough on him, aswell as forces the reaction we saw from Mr.Lee, which is "If you don't want to be here, you are free to leave". If EG had talked to Mr.Lee, the following conversation between Mr.Lee and PuMa would've been more like "EG is interested in you, we want to keep you here, but it's ultimately your decision". This is admittedly assuming Mr.Lee would tell PuMa, but after EG talked to Mr.Lee and said they were interested in him, I personally wouldn't really mind EG talking to PuMa and seeing his reaction, they've already given Mr.Lee the chance to straighten things out inside the house. | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:55 StyLeD wrote: Dude, you can say "No offense, but you're a lying, dishonest journalist" but you're still going to be offensive. Apologizing before you insult someone is stupid and shouldn't even be considered an apology. He never said anything offensive. IMO he was trying to have a honest debate, but Milkis reacted defensively right from the start. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:52 UbiNax wrote: Did you even hear the WoC cast? he apologized several times there if milkis took it the wrong way, which he obviously did in my opinion. He did not apologize, he claimed that Milkis was a journalist and that he was a primary source and that it was his fault that it had gotten out, and that he, in the future, should think about what he is typing and contact all involved, which is funny since EG doesn't even do that themselves. Milkis only translated an article, word by word. That's all he did. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On July 26 2011 09:04 EGalex wrote: We have already built strong relationships with the management of other Korean professional teams. In fact, over the past month alone, we have been in talks with several Korean teams (read: after speaking with management first, not players first) regarding potential recruitment and collaboration. These managers know who they are, and they know that we have approached their teams honorably and respectfully. Now, the obvious question you're all asking after reading this is, "Then, why didn't you do that with Mr. Lee?" From Coach Lee's interview: On July 22 2011 12:34 GTR wrote: From reddit. Note this wasn't done by me. Translated by: wtreddit@reddit Original Interview by: Ethan_Ahn@PlayXP Are you saying that some other TSL members were approached as well? Yes, I found out through this whole ordeal. When SangHo and Clide were approached by other teams, they told me that they declined the offers due to their respect for TSL and the importance of continuing with the team that they originally started with. They thought it was best not to tell me since they thought it would cause unnecessary distractions and concerns. This is something I still don't understand. EG had nothing to do with those other players? The fact that the manager just learned that several of his best players were approached directly, some of them who were receiving salaries, would make his outburst more understandable. | ||
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ReboundEU
508 Posts
He put to much heart for just 1 side instead of playing a middle role, so he made alot of mistakes. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8001 Posts
From what I can gather, the coach should never have contacted the press like he did. None of this drama was necessary. | ||
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iNbluE
Switzerland674 Posts
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:11 PlosionCornu wrote: Well, I'm not allowed to trust my feelings when we are talking about my (and your) passion? WHAT? I have no reason to be involved in the scene other than that, pure emotion. (As opposed to our dear marketeer here, Alex). And in such a way I express my opinion, which, by definition is biased. As I said, what I feel is not limited to this event alone... Furthermore, I usually don't openly give my trust to everyone who's trying to make money off myself, I think that's a pretty normal thing innit? In particular if it's regarding something I love. Maybe I'm jaded, I don't know, I don't care. I'm jut one person who is not an EG fan anymore. That's that. Its not like you were ever an EG fan. Haters gonna hate. From the start i thought this was unprofessional. Not from EG, but from team TSL, if they are an official team at all, with this kind of politics. | ||
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On July 26 2011 20:05 Excludos wrote: I'm not very experienced in these kinds of things, so I'm asking out of pure curiosity here. Why do so many people feel like contacting the player first is a bad thing? These are uncontracted players, without salary, who's purerly on the team because they want to. As an approaching team, my first step would also be to find out "is this person even interested in joining us?". If the answer is yes, then contact the coach. From what I can gather, the coach should never have contacted the press like he did. None of this drama was necessary. It's a cultural thing, In South Korea they don't use contracts that much, not in Esports anyway. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On July 26 2011 19:52 UbiNax wrote: Did you even hear the WoC cast? he apologized several times there if milkis took it the wrong way, which he obviously did in my opinion. What is WoC? If he wants to make an statement, he should do it in a broader audience, like this thread. | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
On July 26 2011 20:05 Excludos wrote: I'm not very experienced in these kinds of things, so I'm asking out of pure curiosity here. Why do so many people feel like contacting the player first is a bad thing? These are uncontracted players, without salary, who's purerly on the team because they want to. As an approaching team, my first step would also be to find out "is this person even interested in joining us?". If the answer is yes, then contact the coach. From what I can gather, the coach should never have contacted the press like he did. None of this drama was necessary. And thats why your reasoning is logical and correct. Unlike the vast majority of people who were just waiting to hate on EG, imo. If some other fan favorite team (Liquid/Mouz) did something like this, i think that reaction of community would be totally different... | ||
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Zombie_Velociraptor
274 Posts
And why is EG saying they contacted other Korean teams 'respectfully by talking to the managers first' about players they are interested in, in the past - and then went on in the manner they did with PuMa? Doesn't make sense at all, but hey, whatever. | ||
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Epoch
Canada257 Posts
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Critta.Magowen
United States3 Posts
That being said, this article from EGalex is a nightmare. It's about five times larger than it should be, the points range all over the place much like his did on WoC. For someone who's job it seems to be to put out fires, I feel like he needs to make his points a lot more concise if he ever wants to reach the skeptic. I'm an EG fan, but I agree with an above post. I'm sick of hearing about EG managment bungling these very minor PR situations. | ||
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zolii
Poland141 Posts
Poor "journalism" from TL staff. Shape out. | ||
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two.watup
United States371 Posts
On July 26 2011 20:08 Integra wrote: It's a cultural thing, In South Korea they don't use contracts that much, not in Esports anyway. This is wrong. And everyone trying to find something wrong with what EG did is just a hater. The poll on page 1 with 1,000 "-1 fans" just means 1,000 nerds already disliked EG. Other players on TSL had salaries. PuMa, their best player, didn't. Who cares about the coach when he isn't paying his players? This wasn't like going to Kobe instead of his coach, this was like going to a Highschool Athlete instead of his coach. Now instead of playing for the lulz, PuMas making bank (other than the bank he makes smashin nerds in tournies). | ||
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Kleen-X
Denmark48 Posts
Because of the cultural difference it ended up creating a problem, that EG did not foresee. There is no doubt that Mr. Lee has been insulted by EG contacting Puma first, but EG did not know they did a mistake. They did it with good intentions and did not wish to disrespect TSL at all. Mr. Lee did, instead of contacting EG and say that he did not find it very polite to do so, rages and contacts the press and gives bad statements. This is (sorry TSL fans), childish to be honest. It's like punching someone for insulting you without they even knew they did it, and a lot of people do this just not physical. Both parts did underestimate the cultural difference, no doubt there. But I feel that the biggest wrong doing was to contact the press like that. I see why people find it weird that EG did not damage control right away, but what I understand they have been very surprised in what happened because they did not expect this to happen at all. If you get punched and you did not think you insult the person, you really want to punch back, or you jsut get stunned by surprice. If you get pissed enough or get back on your feet, you probably punch back. I don't think this should be focused on who started it, because no doubt EG did. BUT they did not know they started it, and therefore Mr. Lee was the first one who could stop this. Instead he blows at the fire that EG did not know they lit. That is why I think Mr Lee made the biggest mistake. So far it has nothing to do with money, contracts and so forth (oh yeah I am just getting there now). Puma did apparently not have a contract, though he did get a house to live in, food and training. Yes. He got payed like that, but people apparently forget that his training was the payback as well to TSL. They could not afford a contract for him, ergo they get almost free training for their own players in the house from him. Which they should be grateful for, but they should also take into account that it won't last forever if he becomes good enough for a contract. It's like getting a job where you actually earn something instead of just getting food and a roof over your head. They should seriously have expected that to happen someday when he improved. So when Puma get contacted, there is no one that actually "owns" him. Though it seems like they still wanted to respect TSL. So they step carefully. Even Puma did not seem to see the wrongdoings, before it was to late. Because then he could have told EG; "well I think you should speak to Mr. Lee instead." If you want E-sport to grow. There have to come money into the system, and EG really helps with that because they have big sponsors. But that actually opens up for other sponsors to see, that there is a lot of good commercial value in sponsoring teams, so example given: TSL could get a good deal with a sponsor. If you want people to scrape money in by them self or small sponsors, well then it must not become to popular. Because the bigger popularity, the bigger interest from companies to sell products. I myself find this amazing, to see how a small e-sport that I find interesting, suddenly can become serious entertainment, for a bigger crowd. And this is for both parts. Starcraft 2 is becoming international. Foreigners have to respect how they do in korea, because it is a big part of the crowd, BUT it is also the same vice versa. They have to remember that as well. It is not a popular sport only in Korea now. It is growing to the rest of the world, and therefore becoming internationalised. So some things is done a little bit difference, or some things do not seem to be a problem. This will create conflicts, and people should do their best to help each other avoiding this, until the global mentality has "stabilized." Again BOTH sides on this one. | ||
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