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On July 24 2011 02:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:14 gh0un wrote:
Looks to me like most korean netizens are immature kids.
Puma was offered a great opportunity and he decided to take it.
Considering korean progamers arent paid anything by their teams (except IM), no one can really blame the players if they leave their team for more secure teams that can pay them.
Playing at their level is a fulltime job, and if korean teams cant pay their players, then they have no right to be butthurt if their players decide to leave for more secure career options. No one is mad about that. They're mad about the lack of etiquette.
But thats how the world works. The early bird catches the worm.
TSL didnt put puma under contract themselves, then someone else came and put him under contract... opportunity lost.
They shouldve showed etiquette and paid their players and if they cant then let them leave if they are offered a good opportunity.
Having them work hard every day and then not granting them the opportunity to leave for a better career option is, in my opinion, the real lack of etiquette.
How can a coach be content with causing an uproar in the community that leads to bashing on the player, thats a lack of etiquette.
Im not saying how EG handled things is the perfect way to go about things, but as i said, the early bird catches the worm.
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On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2011 23:14 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 18:39 Timestreamer wrote:
Hopefully the Korean teams will start using contracts, just like every other company or business around the world does. They need to face the fact that they will need to make more effort to keep players with their teams - now that the foreign scene offers so many tournaments and large prize pools, a good Korean player has less and less incentive to stay in Korea.
Face it - the game has changed, and with it - the Korean teams will need to make the proper adjustments in order to appeal to the better players. That's funny because back in BW people were complaining about KeSPA all the time because of their iron grip on all the players and them not caring for fans outside of Korea. The thing is, when Koreans start taking SC2 as a "business", when a SKT or CJ or Samsung move in it will be the end of western scene as far as top tier (or anywhere near top tier) competition goes. If you are somebody who hates KeSPA and the situation we had in Brood War PRAY that this doesn't happen anytime soon in SC2. I thought people would welcome the change to a more honest and more passionate sport environment. But no, now that EG blatantly abuses a small team that's only trying to get by and provide their players with a good practice environment to improve a bunch of new fanboys are feeling all superior and smug about EG "doin' business" and how the poor and naive Korean team got played. Well done EG, you've "done business" by screwing over a team that wasn't really a business in the first place, and without even a touch of good manner and respect for TSL. You're also going to screw over Puma, poor guy doesn't realize how far behind the top players he will be in a year and how his career will hit a wall once the western sc2 boom slows down. But I guess it's his own fault for only seeing the shiny dollars in front of him and nothing beyond that. 1. What makes you think the western sc2 boom is going to slow down? It's already larger than the Korean scene, as Milkis said on Weapon of Choice. 2. If anything, EG is helping Puma make a living. Playing games is fun, but you still need to be able to survive. A pro-gamer's longevity is relatively short, and it would be nice for them to make some money doing their full-time job, so that they have something to bank after careers are over. 3. EG didn't abuse anything. They showed interest in a player they wanted, and Puma showed interest back. TSL didn't have the goods, and that was that. TSL didn't even own Puma. TSL was the only group that was screwing over Puma by not being able to provide him with a good enough atmosphere at the present. 4. Why do you think so many Koreans are going to foreigner teams? Because every foreigner team is evil and abusive, or because they're offering appropriate salaries and standards of living that Korean teams are not, because BW is still the big thing in Korea? 3. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they HAD to do it this way (obviously they've done nothing wrong legally even as is), but doing it this way is what would get them respect both in Korea and here. Doing it the way they decided to do it - well the consequences are obvious and I bet not very pleasant for EG. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene.
Ah, your one of those people.
EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances.
He gave him a card and said to talk to him if interested. If you think this is "underhanded" and that he has "no business" even speaking to any other teams players, then that is your opinion. It's happened before, it will happen more.
If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go.
And what happens if TSL guilt tripped him into changing his mind? It seems like Koreans are extremely manipulative with their concepts of loyalty. Pumas decision was his own, it wasn't influenced by his coach staring him in the face.
TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene.
generic "foreign teams suck ass, anyone not in korea will turn to shit" comment that has no known citation or may change soon.
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On July 23 2011 08:58 Retgery wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 08:54 UTL_Unlimited wrote:
Myth_Zero: ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 역시 이드라가 속해있는팀
(lololol What I expected from a team with Idra in it)
That one mad me mad.
That one made me lol and the one about dont listen to idra's metal :D
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On July 24 2011 02:28 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:
If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. And what happens if TSL guilt tripped him into changing his mind? It seems like Koreans are extremely manipulative with their concepts of loyalty. Pumas decision was his own, it wasn't influenced by his coach staring him in the face.
I think that's a very negative view of TSL. You need to give TSL the benefit of the doubt. You can't say otherwise without grounds.
Edited for organization
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On July 24 2011 02:28 SafeAsCheese wrote:
He gave him a card and said to talk to him if interested. If you think this is "underhanded" and that he has "no business" even speaking to any other teams players, then that is your opinion. It's happened before, it will happen more.
Actually, we are told that it was "giving a business card", whether that's all that it was - we don't really know. You may want to take AG's word for it, I most certainly don't. Besides, the term "giving a business card" is usually just a nice way to say that they approached the player anyway. It's not like he slipped a card into his pocket and ran off. If the exchange had been that simple, EG wouldn't even know what sort of arrangement Puma had with TSL (whether he was on a contract or not, what were the conditions of him staying with TSL and all that jazz).
If it happens again, I'll be happy to see the future actions of this sort receive the same treatment in the community and on TL as this one did.
On July 24 2011 02:28 SafeAsCheese wrote:
And what happens if TSL guilt tripped him into changing his mind? It seems like Koreans are extremely manipulative with their concepts of loyalty. Pumas decision was his own, it wasn't influenced by his coach staring him in the face.
I'll ignore the borderline racist comment. So if he talked to his own coach and team that he's been with for some time, he would be "manipulated", but he wasn't manipulated by EG's manager, the Alex Garfield himself (who was manipulative and misleading every time we've heard him talk so far)?
Even so, Puma was at that event representing his team and his sponsors, contract or no contract. If EG cared about their reputation, they should have kept away and let him do what he came to do (play and represent his team). If Puma cared about his, he should have kept away from AG. They didn't, and they're paying for it now.
On July 24 2011 02:28 SafeAsCheese wrote:
generic "foreign teams suck ass, anyone not in korea will turn to shit" comment that has no known citation or may change soon.
It's only generic because it's true.
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I find this whole thing ridiculous. And by that I mean it's ridiculous how big of an issue it turned into.
draaaaaaaaaaaaama
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Just waiting for Puma to go the way of MMA after winning one tournament. If that happens, we'll all look back and laugh at the shitstorm EG caused for themselves when they can't deal with Koreans anymore.
Best of luck to all parties, hope this was worth it.
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On July 24 2011 02:42 travis wrote:
I find this whole thing ridiculous. And by that I mean it's ridiculous how big of an issue it turned into.
draaaaaaaaaaaaama
LoL ill go with travis on this one.
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On July 24 2011 02:28 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 23:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2011 23:14 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 18:39 Timestreamer wrote:
Hopefully the Korean teams will start using contracts, just like every other company or business around the world does. They need to face the fact that they will need to make more effort to keep players with their teams - now that the foreign scene offers so many tournaments and large prize pools, a good Korean player has less and less incentive to stay in Korea.
Face it - the game has changed, and with it - the Korean teams will need to make the proper adjustments in order to appeal to the better players. That's funny because back in BW people were complaining about KeSPA all the time because of their iron grip on all the players and them not caring for fans outside of Korea. The thing is, when Koreans start taking SC2 as a "business", when a SKT or CJ or Samsung move in it will be the end of western scene as far as top tier (or anywhere near top tier) competition goes. If you are somebody who hates KeSPA and the situation we had in Brood War PRAY that this doesn't happen anytime soon in SC2. I thought people would welcome the change to a more honest and more passionate sport environment. But no, now that EG blatantly abuses a small team that's only trying to get by and provide their players with a good practice environment to improve a bunch of new fanboys are feeling all superior and smug about EG "doin' business" and how the poor and naive Korean team got played. Well done EG, you've "done business" by screwing over a team that wasn't really a business in the first place, and without even a touch of good manner and respect for TSL. You're also going to screw over Puma, poor guy doesn't realize how far behind the top players he will be in a year and how his career will hit a wall once the western sc2 boom slows down. But I guess it's his own fault for only seeing the shiny dollars in front of him and nothing beyond that. 1. What makes you think the western sc2 boom is going to slow down? It's already larger than the Korean scene, as Milkis said on Weapon of Choice. 2. If anything, EG is helping Puma make a living. Playing games is fun, but you still need to be able to survive. A pro-gamer's longevity is relatively short, and it would be nice for them to make some money doing their full-time job, so that they have something to bank after careers are over. 3. EG didn't abuse anything. They showed interest in a player they wanted, and Puma showed interest back. TSL didn't have the goods, and that was that. TSL didn't even own Puma. TSL was the only group that was screwing over Puma by not being able to provide him with a good enough atmosphere at the present. 4. Why do you think so many Koreans are going to foreigner teams? Because every foreigner team is evil and abusive, or because they're offering appropriate salaries and standards of living that Korean teams are not, because BW is still the big thing in Korea? 3. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they HAD to do it this way (obviously they've done nothing wrong legally even as is), but doing it this way is what would get them respect both in Korea and here. Doing it the way they decided to do it - well the consequences are obvious and I bet not very pleasant for EG. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene. Ah, your one of those people. Show nested quote +EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. He gave him a card and said to talk to him if interested. If you think this is "underhanded" and that he has "no business" even speaking to any other teams players, then that is your opinion. It's happened before, it will happen more. Show nested quote +If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. And what happens if TSL guilt tripped him into changing his mind? It seems like Koreans are extremely manipulative with their concepts of loyalty. Pumas decision was his own, it wasn't influenced by his coach staring him in the face. Show nested quote +TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene.
generic "foreign teams suck ass, anyone not in korea will turn to shit" comment that has no known citation or may change soon.
Hmm...this has a known citation. Wanna know what it is? That foreigner teams actually do suck. If puma joins the eg house I expect him to lose all skill within a month or 2. That's what happens when you practice with people like machine and incontrol.
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The sad thing is that alot of the korean fans think the rest of the NA region acts like EG.. what a horrible representative for our region.
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uhoh... if you are looking for harsher comments, search dcinside sc2 board 
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On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2011 23:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2011 23:14 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 18:39 Timestreamer wrote:
Hopefully the Korean teams will start using contracts, just like every other company or business around the world does. They need to face the fact that they will need to make more effort to keep players with their teams - now that the foreign scene offers so many tournaments and large prize pools, a good Korean player has less and less incentive to stay in Korea.
Face it - the game has changed, and with it - the Korean teams will need to make the proper adjustments in order to appeal to the better players. That's funny because back in BW people were complaining about KeSPA all the time because of their iron grip on all the players and them not caring for fans outside of Korea. The thing is, when Koreans start taking SC2 as a "business", when a SKT or CJ or Samsung move in it will be the end of western scene as far as top tier (or anywhere near top tier) competition goes. If you are somebody who hates KeSPA and the situation we had in Brood War PRAY that this doesn't happen anytime soon in SC2. I thought people would welcome the change to a more honest and more passionate sport environment. But no, now that EG blatantly abuses a small team that's only trying to get by and provide their players with a good practice environment to improve a bunch of new fanboys are feeling all superior and smug about EG "doin' business" and how the poor and naive Korean team got played. Well done EG, you've "done business" by screwing over a team that wasn't really a business in the first place, and without even a touch of good manner and respect for TSL. You're also going to screw over Puma, poor guy doesn't realize how far behind the top players he will be in a year and how his career will hit a wall once the western sc2 boom slows down. But I guess it's his own fault for only seeing the shiny dollars in front of him and nothing beyond that. 1. What makes you think the western sc2 boom is going to slow down? It's already larger than the Korean scene, as Milkis said on Weapon of Choice. 2. If anything, EG is helping Puma make a living. Playing games is fun, but you still need to be able to survive. A pro-gamer's longevity is relatively short, and it would be nice for them to make some money doing their full-time job, so that they have something to bank after careers are over. 3. EG didn't abuse anything. They showed interest in a player they wanted, and Puma showed interest back. TSL didn't have the goods, and that was that. TSL didn't even own Puma. TSL was the only group that was screwing over Puma by not being able to provide him with a good enough atmosphere at the present. 4. Why do you think so many Koreans are going to foreigner teams? Because every foreigner team is evil and abusive, or because they're offering appropriate salaries and standards of living that Korean teams are not, because BW is still the big thing in Korea? 1. Let's call it a prediction. Or let's look at every other western attempt at e-sports - it's always been hype hype hype peak boom collapse. It may not die out, but it's definitely going to slow down, because right now there's no real justification for the amount of money being dumped into western sc2 => they can't keep doing it like this forever. 2. EG is helping Puma make a living for a year, maybe two. Then what? Keep in mind that Puma already won NASL so he was financially well off for some time, and during that time he was extremely likely to get a fat contract in Korea as well (if not in TSL, then in another team). But Puma opted to take instant gratification deal, and that's going to hurt him big time in the long run. Just my prediction of course. 3. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they HAD to do it this way (obviously they've done nothing wrong legally even as is), but doing it this way is what would get them respect both in Korea and here. Doing it the way they decided to do it - well the consequences are obvious and I bet not very pleasant for EG. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene. 4. First of all, there is no "so many Koreans" going to western teams. There's only like 5, out of which only Puma is at a skill level that matters on the Korean scene right now. The number of Koreans that refused offers from western teams is probably a lot bigger (we already know about Clide and SangHo just from TSL so you can bet your ass there were more). In a year or two we'll see which was the smarter choice. Out of the other Koreans that joined western teams, Rain left TSL about a month before joining Fnatic, so there was nothing abusive about that. Phoenix wasn't really on a team as far as I know, TanDongHo is going to study in England so it only makes sense he finds a foreign team anyway, and Oz isn't Leenock or sC (plus the transfer was very amicable and no side freaked out). So yeah, don't try to compare any of those deals to the way EG is doing "the business".
This post makes a lot of flawed points.
1. I agree, but I feel this can be said of just about all esports in and outside of Korea. The past booms of esports in the west were narrow scope. But now with several games of divers genres, the online broadcasting infrastructure (JTV etc.) and most importantly a large growing audience.
2. I don't want to be too offensive so I'll put my true feelings in a spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Nothing in life, not even in esports is guaranteed. The best of the best no matter what their field of expertise almost never get a one year guarantee. Good on Puma for taking what he earned. This isn't him just looking for "instant gratification", he put in years of starcraft practice and dedication and is only now seeing the rewards now. This only just the beginning in many ways for Puma and I think most people agree.
3. TSL management is mostly to blame for the way in which Puma left the team. Over ten years of competitive Brood War and coach Lee didn't think that a contract was necessary? That is utter incompetence, without question. Everyone knows that KeSPA no longer runs the show and it's now in the hands of the teams to 'control' their own players. I suspect TSL as a team or at least coach Lee's job have a shaky future.
TSL and EG are businesses. Business agreements are handled with contracts. Investing in a player and not protecting that investment with a contract is the sole fault of TSL management. Without a contract all of the power is in Pumas hands to chose whats best for Puma. No matter how he was approached or by who, ultimately the choice was Pumas. I don't think any blame should be put on EG in this case.
Also TSL ONLY allowed Puma to merely survive not 'live'. Sure if he stays in Korea he might be the best, but might not end up being what's best for him. Another team is giving him different opportunities that that he can't get where he was.
4. I half agree with your point. There are very few Koreans going out and also few foreiners going into Korea. But keep in mind that the mere fact that Koreans are getting SO many offers from forien teams shows that there is huge interest right now, not one year from now. In a year from now no one will give a shit about this, I won't give a shit about this. In a year from now the only ones that will care are the players that got offered that great deal and instead chose food, a bed and some walking around money.
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On July 23 2011 09:08 unoriginalname wrote:I think most of the foreign scene seem to think that PuMa is a better player than what the Koreans believe though.
it's largely due to the difference in perception of the NASL by koreans and by non-koreans. koreans see the nasl as just another tournament, while for non-koreans winning the nasl is a freaking big deal. and while it isn't anything at all to be sniffed at, the GSL will still in their perceptions be the truest indicator of a player's ability (which in fact it is).
also,  PuMa did nothing in bw. i don't know where this whole "puma was a top bw player" came from, and if it did from the fact that he was "flash's practice partner" then i have no idea what to say.. lots of people have practiced a lot with flash...
so while his name may be known, his lack of achievements in bw and sc2 prior to his nasl win would have contributed to the lesser opinion that koreans have compared to those of foreigners.
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On July 24 2011 02:55 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:28 SafeAsCheese wrote:On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 23:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2011 23:14 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 18:39 Timestreamer wrote:
Hopefully the Korean teams will start using contracts, just like every other company or business around the world does. They need to face the fact that they will need to make more effort to keep players with their teams - now that the foreign scene offers so many tournaments and large prize pools, a good Korean player has less and less incentive to stay in Korea.
Face it - the game has changed, and with it - the Korean teams will need to make the proper adjustments in order to appeal to the better players. That's funny because back in BW people were complaining about KeSPA all the time because of their iron grip on all the players and them not caring for fans outside of Korea. The thing is, when Koreans start taking SC2 as a "business", when a SKT or CJ or Samsung move in it will be the end of western scene as far as top tier (or anywhere near top tier) competition goes. If you are somebody who hates KeSPA and the situation we had in Brood War PRAY that this doesn't happen anytime soon in SC2. I thought people would welcome the change to a more honest and more passionate sport environment. But no, now that EG blatantly abuses a small team that's only trying to get by and provide their players with a good practice environment to improve a bunch of new fanboys are feeling all superior and smug about EG "doin' business" and how the poor and naive Korean team got played. Well done EG, you've "done business" by screwing over a team that wasn't really a business in the first place, and without even a touch of good manner and respect for TSL. You're also going to screw over Puma, poor guy doesn't realize how far behind the top players he will be in a year and how his career will hit a wall once the western sc2 boom slows down. But I guess it's his own fault for only seeing the shiny dollars in front of him and nothing beyond that. 1. What makes you think the western sc2 boom is going to slow down? It's already larger than the Korean scene, as Milkis said on Weapon of Choice. 2. If anything, EG is helping Puma make a living. Playing games is fun, but you still need to be able to survive. A pro-gamer's longevity is relatively short, and it would be nice for them to make some money doing their full-time job, so that they have something to bank after careers are over. 3. EG didn't abuse anything. They showed interest in a player they wanted, and Puma showed interest back. TSL didn't have the goods, and that was that. TSL didn't even own Puma. TSL was the only group that was screwing over Puma by not being able to provide him with a good enough atmosphere at the present. 4. Why do you think so many Koreans are going to foreigner teams? Because every foreigner team is evil and abusive, or because they're offering appropriate salaries and standards of living that Korean teams are not, because BW is still the big thing in Korea? 3. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they HAD to do it this way (obviously they've done nothing wrong legally even as is), but doing it this way is what would get them respect both in Korea and here. Doing it the way they decided to do it - well the consequences are obvious and I bet not very pleasant for EG. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene. Ah, your one of those people. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. He gave him a card and said to talk to him if interested. If you think this is "underhanded" and that he has "no business" even speaking to any other teams players, then that is your opinion. It's happened before, it will happen more. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. And what happens if TSL guilt tripped him into changing his mind? It seems like Koreans are extremely manipulative with their concepts of loyalty. Pumas decision was his own, it wasn't influenced by his coach staring him in the face. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene.
generic "foreign teams suck ass, anyone not in korea will turn to shit" comment that has no known citation or may change soon. Hmm...this has a known citation. Wanna know what it is? That foreigner teams actually do suck. If puma joins the eg house I expect him to lose all skill within a month or 2. That's what happens when you practice with people like machine and incontrol.
Agreed, but i think on weapon of choice AG said he will be staying in korea, regardless now he has no practice partners no team house no coach (sure he may have friends who will help him practice but its not the same and they will obviously be busy with their own team and commitments at times) I beleive no matter what Puma's skill will drop drastically in the coming months and he will be nothing more then a code b'er trying to make it (like he is now? lol)
I became a big fan of Puma after NASL but now, i kind of want to see him fail, such poor decision making on his part though. I guess EG has to take some of that blame though. They approached a 19 year old kid who could easily be persuaded by money to abandon the team that has cared for him since the begining. Its rather ridiculous that they approached him with this first as he obviously didnt handle it correctly at all, he just sat around the TSL house seeming distraught and coach lee had to ask him what was wrong many times before he even said anything about EG. So in my oppinion he didnt even "Talk" to Coach lee like he promised Coach lee approached him and had to get it out of him. Thats really not the way a coach wants to find out that one of the players they cared for is betraying them. If he was straight up about it fromm the moment he got there and EG contacted coach lee as well i guarantee there would be hardly any drama surrounding the situation
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On July 24 2011 03:40 DigitalD[562] wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 23:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2011 23:14 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 18:39 Timestreamer wrote:
Hopefully the Korean teams will start using contracts, just like every other company or business around the world does. They need to face the fact that they will need to make more effort to keep players with their teams - now that the foreign scene offers so many tournaments and large prize pools, a good Korean player has less and less incentive to stay in Korea.
Face it - the game has changed, and with it - the Korean teams will need to make the proper adjustments in order to appeal to the better players. That's funny because back in BW people were complaining about KeSPA all the time because of their iron grip on all the players and them not caring for fans outside of Korea. The thing is, when Koreans start taking SC2 as a "business", when a SKT or CJ or Samsung move in it will be the end of western scene as far as top tier (or anywhere near top tier) competition goes. If you are somebody who hates KeSPA and the situation we had in Brood War PRAY that this doesn't happen anytime soon in SC2. I thought people would welcome the change to a more honest and more passionate sport environment. But no, now that EG blatantly abuses a small team that's only trying to get by and provide their players with a good practice environment to improve a bunch of new fanboys are feeling all superior and smug about EG "doin' business" and how the poor and naive Korean team got played. Well done EG, you've "done business" by screwing over a team that wasn't really a business in the first place, and without even a touch of good manner and respect for TSL. You're also going to screw over Puma, poor guy doesn't realize how far behind the top players he will be in a year and how his career will hit a wall once the western sc2 boom slows down. But I guess it's his own fault for only seeing the shiny dollars in front of him and nothing beyond that. 1. What makes you think the western sc2 boom is going to slow down? It's already larger than the Korean scene, as Milkis said on Weapon of Choice. 2. If anything, EG is helping Puma make a living. Playing games is fun, but you still need to be able to survive. A pro-gamer's longevity is relatively short, and it would be nice for them to make some money doing their full-time job, so that they have something to bank after careers are over. 3. EG didn't abuse anything. They showed interest in a player they wanted, and Puma showed interest back. TSL didn't have the goods, and that was that. TSL didn't even own Puma. TSL was the only group that was screwing over Puma by not being able to provide him with a good enough atmosphere at the present. 4. Why do you think so many Koreans are going to foreigner teams? Because every foreigner team is evil and abusive, or because they're offering appropriate salaries and standards of living that Korean teams are not, because BW is still the big thing in Korea? 1. Let's call it a prediction. Or let's look at every other western attempt at e-sports - it's always been hype hype hype peak boom collapse. It may not die out, but it's definitely going to slow down, because right now there's no real justification for the amount of money being dumped into western sc2 => they can't keep doing it like this forever. 2. EG is helping Puma make a living for a year, maybe two. Then what? Keep in mind that Puma already won NASL so he was financially well off for some time, and during that time he was extremely likely to get a fat contract in Korea as well (if not in TSL, then in another team). But Puma opted to take instant gratification deal, and that's going to hurt him big time in the long run. Just my prediction of course. 3. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they HAD to do it this way (obviously they've done nothing wrong legally even as is), but doing it this way is what would get them respect both in Korea and here. Doing it the way they decided to do it - well the consequences are obvious and I bet not very pleasant for EG. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene. 4. First of all, there is no "so many Koreans" going to western teams. There's only like 5, out of which only Puma is at a skill level that matters on the Korean scene right now. The number of Koreans that refused offers from western teams is probably a lot bigger (we already know about Clide and SangHo just from TSL so you can bet your ass there were more). In a year or two we'll see which was the smarter choice. Out of the other Koreans that joined western teams, Rain left TSL about a month before joining Fnatic, so there was nothing abusive about that. Phoenix wasn't really on a team as far as I know, TanDongHo is going to study in England so it only makes sense he finds a foreign team anyway, and Oz isn't Leenock or sC (plus the transfer was very amicable and no side freaked out). So yeah, don't try to compare any of those deals to the way EG is doing "the business". 2. I don't want to be too offensive so I'll put my true feelings in a spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Nothing in life, not even in esports is guaranteed. The best of the best no matter what their field of expertise almost never get a one year guarantee. Good on Puma for taking what he earned. This isn't him just looking for "instant gratification", he put in years of starcraft practice and dedication and is only now seeing the rewards now. This only just the beginning in many ways for Puma and I think most people agree.
I disagree this is the begining of the end for Puma.
Riddle me this, Puma clearly thrived skill wise in the TSL environment or he would not have performed as well as he did at NASL. Now he doesnt have a team house, he doesnt have a coach and he doesnt have player support, he is planning on staying in korea as far as weve heard from what AG said on weapon of choice. In what way beyond financially is this better for puma. Your kidding yourself if you think his skill level wont drop dramatically from losing his practice partners and coach that made him good in the first place, and joining a foreign team where nobody speaks his language/ even lives in the same country as him.
Even if they did no one beyond idra would even beable to help Puma raise his skill level at the moment (and even idra is questionable with his 3 hours a day practice routine =/) I dont see any actually benificial support EG could give to Puma in korea from the US. They stated this was a safe way to enter the korean market without starting a team or buying out a team / getting a team house in korea.
So what can they do, buy all their players korean accounts so they can practice with Puma , i imagine its something like this. I honestly dont see things going well for puma beyond a finanical stand point from here on out.
It doesnt even really make sense to me either , he won 50k he could have lived very comfortably for free with TSL and continued to improve his skill level drastically for months and months to come produced some results and helped turn things around for TSL,. I dont know what he was thinking but clearly he is still very young and naive and saw a bit of money and went for it.
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Sure it may be a bad decision for Puma given he'll have no support now BUT:
This is way too fucking overdone. lol. Give me a break. This is business.
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I'm offended at what that douche said about listening to metal
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On July 24 2011 04:17 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:40 DigitalD[562] wrote:On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 23:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2011 23:14 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 18:39 Timestreamer wrote:
Hopefully the Korean teams will start using contracts, just like every other company or business around the world does. They need to face the fact that they will need to make more effort to keep players with their teams - now that the foreign scene offers so many tournaments and large prize pools, a good Korean player has less and less incentive to stay in Korea.
Face it - the game has changed, and with it - the Korean teams will need to make the proper adjustments in order to appeal to the better players. That's funny because back in BW people were complaining about KeSPA all the time because of their iron grip on all the players and them not caring for fans outside of Korea. The thing is, when Koreans start taking SC2 as a "business", when a SKT or CJ or Samsung move in it will be the end of western scene as far as top tier (or anywhere near top tier) competition goes. If you are somebody who hates KeSPA and the situation we had in Brood War PRAY that this doesn't happen anytime soon in SC2. I thought people would welcome the change to a more honest and more passionate sport environment. But no, now that EG blatantly abuses a small team that's only trying to get by and provide their players with a good practice environment to improve a bunch of new fanboys are feeling all superior and smug about EG "doin' business" and how the poor and naive Korean team got played. Well done EG, you've "done business" by screwing over a team that wasn't really a business in the first place, and without even a touch of good manner and respect for TSL. You're also going to screw over Puma, poor guy doesn't realize how far behind the top players he will be in a year and how his career will hit a wall once the western sc2 boom slows down. But I guess it's his own fault for only seeing the shiny dollars in front of him and nothing beyond that. 1. What makes you think the western sc2 boom is going to slow down? It's already larger than the Korean scene, as Milkis said on Weapon of Choice. 2. If anything, EG is helping Puma make a living. Playing games is fun, but you still need to be able to survive. A pro-gamer's longevity is relatively short, and it would be nice for them to make some money doing their full-time job, so that they have something to bank after careers are over. 3. EG didn't abuse anything. They showed interest in a player they wanted, and Puma showed interest back. TSL didn't have the goods, and that was that. TSL didn't even own Puma. TSL was the only group that was screwing over Puma by not being able to provide him with a good enough atmosphere at the present. 4. Why do you think so many Koreans are going to foreigner teams? Because every foreigner team is evil and abusive, or because they're offering appropriate salaries and standards of living that Korean teams are not, because BW is still the big thing in Korea? 1. Let's call it a prediction. Or let's look at every other western attempt at e-sports - it's always been hype hype hype peak boom collapse. It may not die out, but it's definitely going to slow down, because right now there's no real justification for the amount of money being dumped into western sc2 => they can't keep doing it like this forever. 2. EG is helping Puma make a living for a year, maybe two. Then what? Keep in mind that Puma already won NASL so he was financially well off for some time, and during that time he was extremely likely to get a fat contract in Korea as well (if not in TSL, then in another team). But Puma opted to take instant gratification deal, and that's going to hurt him big time in the long run. Just my prediction of course. 3. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they HAD to do it this way (obviously they've done nothing wrong legally even as is), but doing it this way is what would get them respect both in Korea and here. Doing it the way they decided to do it - well the consequences are obvious and I bet not very pleasant for EG. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene. 4. First of all, there is no "so many Koreans" going to western teams. There's only like 5, out of which only Puma is at a skill level that matters on the Korean scene right now. The number of Koreans that refused offers from western teams is probably a lot bigger (we already know about Clide and SangHo just from TSL so you can bet your ass there were more). In a year or two we'll see which was the smarter choice. Out of the other Koreans that joined western teams, Rain left TSL about a month before joining Fnatic, so there was nothing abusive about that. Phoenix wasn't really on a team as far as I know, TanDongHo is going to study in England so it only makes sense he finds a foreign team anyway, and Oz isn't Leenock or sC (plus the transfer was very amicable and no side freaked out). So yeah, don't try to compare any of those deals to the way EG is doing "the business". 2. I don't want to be too offensive so I'll put my true feelings in a spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Nothing in life, not even in esports is guaranteed. The best of the best no matter what their field of expertise almost never get a one year guarantee. Good on Puma for taking what he earned. This isn't him just looking for "instant gratification", he put in years of starcraft practice and dedication and is only now seeing the rewards now. This only just the beginning in many ways for Puma and I think most people agree. I disagree this is the begining of the end for Puma. Riddle me this, Puma clearly thrived skill wise in the TSL environment or he would not have performed as well as he did at NASL. Now he doesnt have a team house, he doesnt have a coach and he doesnt have player support, he is planning on staying in korea as far as weve heard from what AG said on weapon of choice. In what way beyond financially is this better for puma. Your kidding yourself if you think his skill level wont drop dramatically from losing his practice partners and coach that made him good in the first place, and joining a foreign team where nobody speaks his language/ even lives in the same country as him. Even if they did no one beyond idra would even beable to help Puma raise his skill level at the moment (and even idra is questionable with his 3 hours a day practice routine =/) I dont see any actually benificial support EG could give to Puma in korea from the US. They stated this was a safe way to enter the korean market without starting a team or buying out a team / getting a team house in korea. So what can they do, buy all their players korean accounts so they can practice with Puma , i imagine its something like this. I honestly dont see things going well for puma beyond a finanical stand point from here on out. It doesnt even really make sense to me either , he won 50k he could have lived very comfortably for free with TSL and continued to improve his skill level drastically for months and months to come produced some results and helped turn things around for TSL,. I dont know what he was thinking but clearly he is still very young and naive and saw a bit of money and went for it.
Are you really trying to say they would invest time and money into a player just so he could rot and turn to shit? Think about what you're saying...even AG touched on your points. They don't make sense because it wouldnt make sense for EG more importantly. This isn't some super obscure concern, it's a huge logistical issue that EG had to have known of from day 1 since they've already dealt with Idra's situation in Korea. It would just be plain odd for them to ignore it.
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On July 24 2011 04:17 Executor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 03:40 DigitalD[562] wrote:On July 24 2011 01:27 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 23:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 23 2011 23:14 Talin wrote:On July 23 2011 18:39 Timestreamer wrote:
Hopefully the Korean teams will start using contracts, just like every other company or business around the world does. They need to face the fact that they will need to make more effort to keep players with their teams - now that the foreign scene offers so many tournaments and large prize pools, a good Korean player has less and less incentive to stay in Korea.
Face it - the game has changed, and with it - the Korean teams will need to make the proper adjustments in order to appeal to the better players. That's funny because back in BW people were complaining about KeSPA all the time because of their iron grip on all the players and them not caring for fans outside of Korea. The thing is, when Koreans start taking SC2 as a "business", when a SKT or CJ or Samsung move in it will be the end of western scene as far as top tier (or anywhere near top tier) competition goes. If you are somebody who hates KeSPA and the situation we had in Brood War PRAY that this doesn't happen anytime soon in SC2. I thought people would welcome the change to a more honest and more passionate sport environment. But no, now that EG blatantly abuses a small team that's only trying to get by and provide their players with a good practice environment to improve a bunch of new fanboys are feeling all superior and smug about EG "doin' business" and how the poor and naive Korean team got played. Well done EG, you've "done business" by screwing over a team that wasn't really a business in the first place, and without even a touch of good manner and respect for TSL. You're also going to screw over Puma, poor guy doesn't realize how far behind the top players he will be in a year and how his career will hit a wall once the western sc2 boom slows down. But I guess it's his own fault for only seeing the shiny dollars in front of him and nothing beyond that. 1. What makes you think the western sc2 boom is going to slow down? It's already larger than the Korean scene, as Milkis said on Weapon of Choice. 2. If anything, EG is helping Puma make a living. Playing games is fun, but you still need to be able to survive. A pro-gamer's longevity is relatively short, and it would be nice for them to make some money doing their full-time job, so that they have something to bank after careers are over. 3. EG didn't abuse anything. They showed interest in a player they wanted, and Puma showed interest back. TSL didn't have the goods, and that was that. TSL didn't even own Puma. TSL was the only group that was screwing over Puma by not being able to provide him with a good enough atmosphere at the present. 4. Why do you think so many Koreans are going to foreigner teams? Because every foreigner team is evil and abusive, or because they're offering appropriate salaries and standards of living that Korean teams are not, because BW is still the big thing in Korea? 1. Let's call it a prediction. Or let's look at every other western attempt at e-sports - it's always been hype hype hype peak boom collapse. It may not die out, but it's definitely going to slow down, because right now there's no real justification for the amount of money being dumped into western sc2 => they can't keep doing it like this forever. 2. EG is helping Puma make a living for a year, maybe two. Then what? Keep in mind that Puma already won NASL so he was financially well off for some time, and during that time he was extremely likely to get a fat contract in Korea as well (if not in TSL, then in another team). But Puma opted to take instant gratification deal, and that's going to hurt him big time in the long run. Just my prediction of course. 3. EG was extremely disrespectful and abusive. They approached Puma during a competitive event, Puma came to NASL to play and compete, he was sent there (and had travel paid for) by his team. EG manager has no business even talking to him under such circumstances. If EG had a sense of respect and basic courtesy, they would wait for Puma to go back to Korea, then contact the TSL to see what contract was he on (or if he was on one) and if TSL and Puma agreed then talk to Puma and see if he wants to go. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they HAD to do it this way (obviously they've done nothing wrong legally even as is), but doing it this way is what would get them respect both in Korea and here. Doing it the way they decided to do it - well the consequences are obvious and I bet not very pleasant for EG. TSL provided Puma with more than EG can provide him. TSL might not have had the money (yet), but EG has only money and pretty much nothing else to offer. Most importantly, they can't provide him with means to maintain skill level and keep up with the Korean scene. 4. First of all, there is no "so many Koreans" going to western teams. There's only like 5, out of which only Puma is at a skill level that matters on the Korean scene right now. The number of Koreans that refused offers from western teams is probably a lot bigger (we already know about Clide and SangHo just from TSL so you can bet your ass there were more). In a year or two we'll see which was the smarter choice. Out of the other Koreans that joined western teams, Rain left TSL about a month before joining Fnatic, so there was nothing abusive about that. Phoenix wasn't really on a team as far as I know, TanDongHo is going to study in England so it only makes sense he finds a foreign team anyway, and Oz isn't Leenock or sC (plus the transfer was very amicable and no side freaked out). So yeah, don't try to compare any of those deals to the way EG is doing "the business". 2. I don't want to be too offensive so I'll put my true feelings in a spoiler. + Show Spoiler + Nothing in life, not even in esports is guaranteed. The best of the best no matter what their field of expertise almost never get a one year guarantee. Good on Puma for taking what he earned. This isn't him just looking for "instant gratification", he put in years of starcraft practice and dedication and is only now seeing the rewards now. This only just the beginning in many ways for Puma and I think most people agree. I disagree this is the begining of the end for Puma. Riddle me this, Puma clearly thrived skill wise in the TSL environment or he would not have performed as well as he did at NASL. Now he doesnt have a team house, he doesnt have a coach and he doesnt have player support, he is planning on staying in korea as far as weve heard from what AG said on weapon of choice. In what way beyond financially is this better for puma. Your kidding yourself if you think his skill level wont drop dramatically from losing his practice partners and coach that made him good in the first place, and joining a foreign team where nobody speaks his language/ even lives in the same country as him. Even if they did no one beyond idra would even beable to help Puma raise his skill level at the moment (and even idra is questionable with his 3 hours a day practice routine =/) I dont see any actually benificial support EG could give to Puma in korea from the US. They stated this was a safe way to enter the korean market without starting a team or buying out a team / getting a team house in korea. So what can they do, buy all their players korean accounts so they can practice with Puma , i imagine its something like this. I honestly dont see things going well for puma beyond a finanical stand point from here on out. It doesnt even really make sense to me either , he won 50k he could have lived very comfortably for free with TSL and continued to improve his skill level drastically for months and months to come produced some results and helped turn things around for TSL,. I dont know what he was thinking but clearly he is still very young and naive and saw a bit of money and went for it.
Firstly. Don't quote my post only to butcher it and spew an uniformed rant that is largely out of context. Please Update your post to include my whole quote.
You are clearly arguing a point I didn't make (read the whole post). I intentionally didn't make declarative statements, only assumptions, based on the facts that have come out.. I would like to see whats best for Puma, and you only seem to care that he practice ten hours a day in Korea for less money. I'll say it again, Puma is doing whats best for Puma. Neither EG nor TSL is the good or bad guy in this situation because it was Pumas choice.
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Is there any of them who talk about the foreigner reaction?
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EPT
