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On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed.
I think the main points that people are trying to make in the thread are:
A) This is a career-killing move for Puma because EG is unable to provide an environment where he will be able to continue to grow.
B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment.
C) The unapologetic and crass style of the EG management in both the acquisition of Puma and the PR mess that followed has alienated a large section of the community that puts a high premium on "manner". The general sense of disgust and contempt has been large enough that the backlash has even got people raging out at djWHEAT and threatening to boycott his show.
D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career.
As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, TSL has had some very well-compensated players (Fruitdealer, etc.). In a real business environment if an executive is being headhunted by competition or people from another industry it is standard practice in Western society to notify your employer of the offer and give them time and opportunity to counter it. Given the time-frame of this fiasco it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened (though we obviously don't know everything). The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant about "how business really works" further inflames the people who are just looking for a bit of professionalism, "manner", and civility.
I think that this entire situation could have been managed much more amicably, but instead we might be seeing the spark that lights the flame of KeSPA #2. There's nothing to be rejoicing about here at all.
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On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career.
I'm only going to respond to these points because I don't want to get into the team EG/TSL argument. As far as I'm concerned that is purely a matter of opinion so no one will ever reach an agreement on that.
Specifically to B), I just want to point out that PuMa also was valuable to TSL. You better believe Tester/Fruitdealer/Sangho/Clide and all of their GSL players benefited a great deal from having PuMa as a practice partner. Even when he wasn't on top of the world, he was still a strong dedicated practice partner (or they wouldn't have signed/kept him). It's not like TSL made PuMa. PuMa made PuMa with TSLs help.
Also, we shouldn't get into discussions about PuMa's future. For all you know, EG may work out an arrangement with some pro-team in Korea and having PuMa live with them like an oGs-TL arrangement. At which point this wouldn't hamper his career at all. So I think we should all hold back judgment on that matter. EG has made it clear they are willing to invest heavily in korea and that could just as easily mean getting PuMa as much practice as he wants there (I mean, its clear EG treats their players well... every single member will probably tell you this... so PuMa will get whatever training environment he wants).
And yea it was a bit of a selfish move on PuMa's part. But should he really stick around and play for TSL for a long time out of some sort of allegiance to them? I don't think so. I think players need to do what is best for them (while still fulfilling any of their obligations).
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I think it's awesome. I love Puma's play and EG's my favorite team. Now he's gonna start dominating foreign tournaments :D
I don't really agree with the thing about foreign teams "stealing" players. In the end it's the player's decision, and it should be about the reason why they left.
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On July 24 2011 07:12 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. I'm only going to respond to these points because I don't want to get into the team EG/TSL argument. As far as I'm concerned that is purely a matter of opinion so no one will ever reach an agreement on that. Specifically to B), I just want to point out that PuMa also was valuable to TSL. You better believe Tester/Fruitdealer/Sangho/Clide and all of their GSL players benefited a great deal from having PuMa as a practice partner. Even when he wasn't on top of the world, he was still a strong dedicated practice partner (or they wouldn't have signed/kept him). It's not like TSL made PuMa. PuMa made PuMa with TSLs help. Also, we shouldn't get into discussions about PuMa's future. For all you know, EG may work out an arrangement with some pro-team in Korea and having PuMa live with them like an oGs-TL arrangement. At which point this wouldn't hamper his career at all. So I think we should all hold back judgment on that matter. EG has made it clear they are willing to invest heavily in korea and that could just as easily mean getting PuMa as much practice as he wants there (I mean, its clear EG treats their players well... every single member will probably tell you this... so PuMa will get whatever training environment he wants). And yea it was a bit of a selfish move on PuMa's part. But should he really stick around and play for TSL for a long time out of some sort of allegiance to them? I don't think so. I think players need to do what is best for them (while still fulfilling any of their obligations).
I think it was mentioned in the thread at some point that EG was unwilling to partner up with any Korean teams but I may be mistaken or that may be flatly untrue.
I don't really buy the line of reasoning that Puma's value as a practice partner for TSL's salaried players was equivalent to the time and money that TSL spent to groom him let alone the argument that that was their primary intention in keeping him on the team. They played him on a fairly regular basis in the team league and I think that on that evidence alone they clearly had plans for him to become a bigger part of the team (probably once he broke into Code A).
Rather than compare Puma's salary (or lack thereof) with already-accomplished players like Fruitdealer, Trickster, Killer, and Clide I'd be curious to know how he stacks up against other promising Code B players who don't have any major accomplishments.
I am not particularly emotionally invested in this entire argument. I think that what Puma did was well within his rights and that it would behoove people to stop bringing up these high school level legal arguments as to why Puma is actionable by TSL (he's not, at least not in North America). I also think that it was poorly handled on the business side of things and know for a fact that this is not reflective of "how business works in the West".
A lot of the discussion in this thread hinges on the TL meta-argument about whether it's possible for non-Korean training regimens (even ones that try to copy the Korean style) to stay competitive with the Korean teams. I don't intend to get into that here.
TL;DR: I don't really disagree with you on anything major here. My main point of interest is centered on whether or not TSL was given the opportunity to make a counter offer to EG's because Puma's real value as a player when he boarded his flight in Seoul and when he boarded in California are like night and day. I think it's disingenuous to say that TSL didn't have a significant investment in Puma and that said investment didn't entitle them to at least some amount of time, consideration and consultation.
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On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. I think the main points that people are trying to make in the thread are: A) This is a career-killing move for Puma because EG is unable to provide an environment where he will be able to continue to grow. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. C) The unapologetic and crass style of the EG management in both the acquisition of Puma and the PR mess that followed has alienated a large section of the community that puts a high premium on "manner". The general sense of disgust and contempt has been large enough that the backlash has even got people raging out at djWHEAT and threatening to boycott his show. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, TSL has had some very well-compensated players (Fruitdealer, etc.). In a real business environment if an executive is being headhunted by competition or people from another industry it is standard practice in Western society to notify your employer of the offer and give them time and opportunity to counter it. Given the time-frame of this fiasco it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened (though we obviously don't know everything). The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant about "how business really works" further inflames the people who are just looking for a bit of professionalism, "manner", and civility. I think that this entire situation could have been managed much more amicably, but instead we might be seeing the spark that lights the flame of KeSPA #2. There's nothing to be rejoicing about here at all.
gotta agree with this summarizing. personally, i think puma did make a terrible impulse decision at the sight of money and will regret this further along the road. EG is not a good team in my eyes, and certainly does not compare to any Korean pro-team in any aspect, so for him to ditch TSL (which has been performing great lately in GSTL) for an American team is incomprehensible to me. If he really wanted to play for a foreign team that could supply the cash/foreign tournament competitiveness, there are several better teams out there..
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On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:
In a real business environment if...
...it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened...
...The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant....
Pot, kettle, blackness, ect.
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On July 24 2011 07:56 tetracycloide wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:
In a real business environment if...
...it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened...
...The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant.... Pot, kettle, blackness, ect.
I'm sorry, are you actually disagreeing with what I said about headhunting and presenting your current employer with job offers you've received or are you just quoting random shit for a quick, low quality post so you can feel witty?
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On July 24 2011 08:02 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 07:56 tetracycloide wrote:On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:
In a real business environment if...
...it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened...
...The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant.... Pot, kettle, blackness, ect. I'm sorry, are you actually disagreeing with what I said about headhunting and presenting your current employer with job offers you've received or are you just quoting random shit for a quick, low quality post so you can feel witty?
I'm actually calling you out on what a hypocrite you are. You tell-off others in the thread for their 'juvenile speculation' in exactly the same breath you use to make your own.
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On July 24 2011 07:47 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 07:12 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. I'm only going to respond to these points because I don't want to get into the team EG/TSL argument. As far as I'm concerned that is purely a matter of opinion so no one will ever reach an agreement on that. Specifically to B), I just want to point out that PuMa also was valuable to TSL. You better believe Tester/Fruitdealer/Sangho/Clide and all of their GSL players benefited a great deal from having PuMa as a practice partner. Even when he wasn't on top of the world, he was still a strong dedicated practice partner (or they wouldn't have signed/kept him). It's not like TSL made PuMa. PuMa made PuMa with TSLs help. Also, we shouldn't get into discussions about PuMa's future. For all you know, EG may work out an arrangement with some pro-team in Korea and having PuMa live with them like an oGs-TL arrangement. At which point this wouldn't hamper his career at all. So I think we should all hold back judgment on that matter. EG has made it clear they are willing to invest heavily in korea and that could just as easily mean getting PuMa as much practice as he wants there (I mean, its clear EG treats their players well... every single member will probably tell you this... so PuMa will get whatever training environment he wants). And yea it was a bit of a selfish move on PuMa's part. But should he really stick around and play for TSL for a long time out of some sort of allegiance to them? I don't think so. I think players need to do what is best for them (while still fulfilling any of their obligations). I think it was mentioned in the thread at some point that EG was unwilling to partner up with any Korean teams but I may be mistaken or that may be flatly untrue. I don't really buy the line of reasoning that Puma's value as a practice partner for TSL's salaried players was equivalent to the time and money that TSL spent to groom him let alone the argument that that was their primary intention in keeping him on the team. They played him on a fairly regular basis in the team league and I think that on that evidence alone they clearly had plans for him to become a bigger part of the team (probably once he broke into Code A). Rather than compare Puma's salary (or lack thereof) with already-accomplished players like Fruitdealer, Trickster, Killer, and Clide I'd be curious to know how he stacks up against other promising Code B players who don't have any major accomplishments. I am not particularly emotionally invested in this entire argument. I think that what Puma did was well within his rights and that it would behoove people to stop bringing up these high school level legal arguments as to why Puma is actionable by TSL (he's not, at least not in North America). I also think that it was poorly handled on the business side of things and know for a fact that this is not reflective of "how business works in the West". A lot of the discussion in this thread hinges on the TL meta-argument about whether it's possible for non-Korean training regimens (even ones that try to copy the Korean style) to stay competitive with the Korean teams. I don't intend to get into that here. TL;DR: I don't really disagree with you on anything major here. My main point of interest is centered on whether or not TSL was given the opportunity to make a counter offer to EG's because Puma's real value as a player when he boarded his flight in Seoul and when he boarded in California are like night and day. I think it's disingenuous to say that TSL didn't have a significant investment in Puma and that said investment didn't entitle them to at least some amount of time, consideration and consultation.
Consider this: The "amount of time" is not entirely on either EG's, PumA's or Lee's shoulders alone.
From what we know so far, Lee was completely taken by suprise and presented with fait accompli, since PumA seems to have already made up his mind. That is most likely the reason why Lee and in consequence everybody else is so upset. EG's behavior is a contributing factor, but examine following thinkable scenarios in no particular order:
* PumA would have still been undecided and genuinely counseled with Lee, even saying something along the lines of "Look, they gave me their business card and told me they are looking for players. I don't know, I don't want to rush. Let me finish XYZ and stay on TSL at least for another month or two and talk things out. what do you think?"
* EG told PumA "we understand you want to counsel with your coach first, but let him know that we really would like to talk to him personally. tell him, we gave you our contacts, since we met you here at NASL, but really value his opinion and participation"
It is really misleading to point out EG contacting PumA in itself is the single and of most serious consequential error. As an asian myself, I see the often cited "culture" explaination presented only partly and not entirely correctly.
There would have been zero outcry in case PumA wouldn't have been decided on leaving all along. That is the reason why it took him so long to break the news to his coach. Lee was upset that he wasn't given a chance to change PumA's mind, no not because someone talked to PumA once. Even if EG hadn't talked to PumA but contacted TSL via official means days after NASL, it is only speculation that PumA's decision would be any different. In any case Lee is much more hurt by the fact that PumA is leaving that suddenly. Lee wouldn't have had the straw-man to call out on EG "sneakingly stealing" his player, but still would raise the issues of protecting the Kr playerbase.
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Any update ? Will he stay in korea or goes in the EG house ?
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Fantastic move but the announcement came too early, it was unprofessional of Mr. Lee to reveal the deal in the interview with PlayXP before anything was finalized.
I know everyone's been feeling sorry for Mr. Lee and demonizing EG for his hurt feelings but this shouldn't have been revealed at all until Puma signed and EG/TSL posted official statements.
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TL partners with oGs
FXO partners with fOu
coL partners with MVP
EG could have partnered with TSL, but instead chooses to pickup Puma, hurt TSL, and generate something of a PR blunder.
EDIT: Apparently the thoughts I bring up here have been already been considered, and subsequently pwnd, in this thread. My apologies.
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On July 24 2011 07:49 sYstim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. I think the main points that people are trying to make in the thread are: A) This is a career-killing move for Puma because EG is unable to provide an environment where he will be able to continue to grow. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. C) The unapologetic and crass style of the EG management in both the acquisition of Puma and the PR mess that followed has alienated a large section of the community that puts a high premium on "manner". The general sense of disgust and contempt has been large enough that the backlash has even got people raging out at djWHEAT and threatening to boycott his show. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, TSL has had some very well-compensated players (Fruitdealer, etc.). In a real business environment if an executive is being headhunted by competition or people from another industry it is standard practice in Western society to notify your employer of the offer and give them time and opportunity to counter it. Given the time-frame of this fiasco it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened (though we obviously don't know everything). The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant about "how business really works" further inflames the people who are just looking for a bit of professionalism, "manner", and civility. I think that this entire situation could have been managed much more amicably, but instead we might be seeing the spark that lights the flame of KeSPA #2. There's nothing to be rejoicing about here at all. gotta agree with this summarizing. personally, i think puma did make a terrible impulse decision at the sight of money and will regret this further along the road. EG is not a good team in my eyes, and certainly does not compare to any Korean pro-team in any aspect, so for him to ditch TSL (which has been performing great lately in GSTL) for an American team is incomprehensible to me. If he really wanted to play for a foreign team that could supply the cash/foreign tournament competitiveness, there are several better teams out there..
EG had more money and to assume they would somehow NOT be able to financially support him is just naive. Puma will have MORE support now. How he would have less is beyond me, it was mentioned they thought about his current and future practice situations and how they could aid him in staying in form.
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On July 24 2011 08:48 Horse...falcon wrote:
Fantastic move but the announcement came too early, it was unprofessional of Mr. Lee to reveal the deal in the interview with PlayXP before anything was finalized.
I know everyone's been feeling sorry for Mr. Lee and demonizing EG for his hurt feelings but this shouldn't have been revealed at all until Puma signed and EG/TSL posted official statements.
Uh, this is TSL's official statement. They are releasing Puma at his own request, and Puma plans to join EG afterwards. Nobody from EG actually contacted the TSL management, so how are they supposed to synchronize announcements? If this is unprofessional by coach Lee, then EG's conduct is also unprofessional.
Either TSL is a side in this deal, and EG should have communicated with them properly; or Puma wasn't under contract, so TSL is not really involved, and they have no obligation towards EG at all. You can't have it both ways.
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On July 24 2011 08:48 Horse...falcon wrote:
Fantastic move but the announcement came too early, it was unprofessional of Mr. Lee to reveal the deal in the interview with PlayXP before anything was finalized.
I know everyone's been feeling sorry for Mr. Lee and demonizing EG for his hurt feelings but this shouldn't have been revealed at all until Puma signed and EG/TSL posted official statements.
Uh, this is TSL's official statement. They are releasing Puma at his own request, and Puma plans to join EG afterwards. Nobody from EG actually contacted the TSL management, so how are they supposed to synchronize announcements? If this is unprofessional by coach Lee, then EG's conduct is also unprofessional.
Either TSL is a side in this deal, and EG should have communicated with them properly; or Puma wasn't under contract, so TSL is not really involved, and they have no obligation towards EG at all. You can't have it both ways.
I think he is talking about when coach Lee went on his little temper tantrum .
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I, for one, am all for this change and I welcome Puma to EG.
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On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. I think the main points that people are trying to make in the thread are: A) This is a career-killing move for Puma because EG is unable to provide an environment where he will be able to continue to grow. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. C) The unapologetic and crass style of the EG management in both the acquisition of Puma and the PR mess that followed has alienated a large section of the community that puts a high premium on "manner". The general sense of disgust and contempt has been large enough that the backlash has even got people raging out at djWHEAT and threatening to boycott his show. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, TSL has had some very well-compensated players (Fruitdealer, etc.). In a real business environment if an executive is being headhunted by competition or people from another industry it is standard practice in Western society to notify your employer of the offer and give them time and opportunity to counter it. Given the time-frame of this fiasco it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened (though we obviously don't know everything). The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant about "how business really works" further inflames the people who are just looking for a bit of professionalism, "manner", and civility. I think that this entire situation could have been managed much more amicably, but instead we might be seeing the spark that lights the flame of KeSPA #2. There's nothing to be rejoicing about here at all.
A) Hasty assumption. EG is setting up a team house. No reason to assume that the team house will prove to be incapable of matching the Korean training environment. Also no reason to assume that Puma doesn't still have plenty of practice partners in Korea.
B) I assume you're implying here that Puma (not EG) should have given TSL more opportunity to make a counter-offer and keep him on the team. Fine, but I don't see why anyone cares much about how Puma treated his team. What does it matter to you, you're not going to be a fan of Puma now? The concern of us westerners is really with how EG handled the matter.
C) Doesn't seem very a accurate. A "large section of the community" has been alienated by EG? The impression I've gotten throughout this thread is that a majority of posters don't think EG did anything wrong. There are tons and tons of posts in this thread to that effect. Also, you claim that the posts "raging out at djwheat" are evidence of the largeness of the "general sense of contempt and disgust." Not really, could just be a couple of angry posters. Again, while there are certainly posters displaying contempt and disgust towards EG in this thread, my impression is that the majority of them are not.
D) You have absolutely no idea whether Puma gave proper consideration to his team and his long-term career. We know that he took two weeks to make a decision. What makes you think two weeks is too fast to give consideration to the things you mention? You merely have an opinion of Puma's end decision, an opinion which Puma may well disagree with after proper consideration.
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On July 24 2011 12:13 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. I think the main points that people are trying to make in the thread are: A) This is a career-killing move for Puma because EG is unable to provide an environment where he will be able to continue to grow. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. C) The unapologetic and crass style of the EG management in both the acquisition of Puma and the PR mess that followed has alienated a large section of the community that puts a high premium on "manner". The general sense of disgust and contempt has been large enough that the backlash has even got people raging out at djWHEAT and threatening to boycott his show. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, TSL has had some very well-compensated players (Fruitdealer, etc.). In a real business environment if an executive is being headhunted by competition or people from another industry it is standard practice in Western society to notify your employer of the offer and give them time and opportunity to counter it. Given the time-frame of this fiasco it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened (though we obviously don't know everything). The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant about "how business really works" further inflames the people who are just looking for a bit of professionalism, "manner", and civility. I think that this entire situation could have been managed much more amicably, but instead we might be seeing the spark that lights the flame of KeSPA #2. There's nothing to be rejoicing about here at all. A) Hasty assumption. EG is setting up a team house. No reason to assume that the team house will prove to be incapable of matching the Korean training environment. Also no reason to assume that Puma doesn't still have plenty of practice partners in Korea. B) I assume you're implying here that Puma (not EG) should have given TSL more opportunity to make a counter-offer and keep him on the team. Fine, but I don't see why anyone cares much about how Puma treated his team. What does it matter to you, you're not going to be a fan of Puma now? The concern of us westerners is really with how EG handled the matter. C) Doesn't seem very a accurate. A "large section of the community" has been alienated by EG? The impression I've gotten throughout this thread is that a majority of posters don't think EG did anything wrong. There are tons and tons of posts in this thread to that effect. Also, you claim that the posts "raging out at djwheat" are evidence of the largeness of the "general sense of contempt and disgust." Not really, could just be a couple of angry posters. Again, while there are certainly posters displaying contempt and disgust towards EG in this thread, my impression is that the majority of them are not. D) You have absolutely no idea whether Puma gave proper consideration to his team and his long-term career. We know that he took two weeks to make a decision. What makes you think two weeks is too fast to give consideration to the things you mention? You merely have an opinion of Puma's end decision, an opinion which Puma may well disagree with after proper consideration.
A) EG said Puma is staying in Korea and even if he were to leave Korea and move to EGs team house most feel his skill would only deteriorate. He would practice with the likes of inControL, Axslav, DeMusliM, StrifeCro, LzGamer and Machine. Players would wouldn't even be Korean masters (code B). IdrA would be his only help there and it would still be a downgrade esp. with the language barrier.
B) Why wouldn't how Puma treated his team matter? He is going to be participating in all foreign LANs now and I for one see no reason to support him anymore.
C) You are either delusional or haven't read this thread.
The impression I've gotten throughout this thread is that a majority of posters don't think EG did anything wrong
Please read this thread again or tell me you are an EG employee
D) I'm pretty sure the decision was agreed upon following NASL. He didn't give any thought and chose to follow the money.
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On July 24 2011 12:25 hyptonic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:13 Doodsmack wrote:On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. I think the main points that people are trying to make in the thread are: A) This is a career-killing move for Puma because EG is unable to provide an environment where he will be able to continue to grow. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. C) The unapologetic and crass style of the EG management in both the acquisition of Puma and the PR mess that followed has alienated a large section of the community that puts a high premium on "manner". The general sense of disgust and contempt has been large enough that the backlash has even got people raging out at djWHEAT and threatening to boycott his show. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, TSL has had some very well-compensated players (Fruitdealer, etc.). In a real business environment if an executive is being headhunted by competition or people from another industry it is standard practice in Western society to notify your employer of the offer and give them time and opportunity to counter it. Given the time-frame of this fiasco it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened (though we obviously don't know everything). The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant about "how business really works" further inflames the people who are just looking for a bit of professionalism, "manner", and civility. I think that this entire situation could have been managed much more amicably, but instead we might be seeing the spark that lights the flame of KeSPA #2. There's nothing to be rejoicing about here at all. A) Hasty assumption. EG is setting up a team house. No reason to assume that the team house will prove to be incapable of matching the Korean training environment. Also no reason to assume that Puma doesn't still have plenty of practice partners in Korea. B) I assume you're implying here that Puma (not EG) should have given TSL more opportunity to make a counter-offer and keep him on the team. Fine, but I don't see why anyone cares much about how Puma treated his team. What does it matter to you, you're not going to be a fan of Puma now? The concern of us westerners is really with how EG handled the matter. C) Doesn't seem very a accurate. A "large section of the community" has been alienated by EG? The impression I've gotten throughout this thread is that a majority of posters don't think EG did anything wrong. There are tons and tons of posts in this thread to that effect. Also, you claim that the posts "raging out at djwheat" are evidence of the largeness of the "general sense of contempt and disgust." Not really, could just be a couple of angry posters. Again, while there are certainly posters displaying contempt and disgust towards EG in this thread, my impression is that the majority of them are not. D) You have absolutely no idea whether Puma gave proper consideration to his team and his long-term career. We know that he took two weeks to make a decision. What makes you think two weeks is too fast to give consideration to the things you mention? You merely have an opinion of Puma's end decision, an opinion which Puma may well disagree with after proper consideration. A) EG said Puma is staying in Korea and even if he were to leave Korea and move to EGs team house most feel his skill would only deteriorate. He would practice with the likes of inControL, Axslav, DeMusliM, StrifeCro, LzGamer and Machine. Players would wouldn't even be Korean masters (code B). IdrA would be his only help there and it would still be a downgrade esp. with the language barrier. B) Why wouldn't how Puma treated his team matter? He is going to be participating in all foreign LANs now and I for one see no reason to support him anymore. C) You are either delusional or haven't read this thread. Show nested quote +The impression I've gotten throughout this thread is that a majority of posters don't think EG did anything wrong Please read this thread again or tell me you are an EG employee D) I'm pretty sure the decision was agreed upon following NASL. He didn't give any thought and chose to follow the money.
So because he disagrees with you he must be an EG employee? EG hasn't said for sure what Puma will be doing. He's not even signed yet. Your final point is nothing but your personal opinion, you have no idea if he gave it any thought or not (which I'd bet money he did).
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On July 24 2011 12:31 Ozcollo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 12:25 hyptonic wrote:On July 24 2011 12:13 Doodsmack wrote:On July 24 2011 06:18 Cyrak wrote:On July 24 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed. I think the main points that people are trying to make in the thread are: A) This is a career-killing move for Puma because EG is unable to provide an environment where he will be able to continue to grow. B) Puma was an investment on the part of TSL. He had no results of significance to show in his SC2 career until his win at NASL and after that win he subsequently ditches TSL within a matter of days. Some people are acting as if Puma was a player that was obviously amazing for a long time but was unappreciated by his team. In fact, he was someone that, until his awesome run in the NASL open and finals, had accomplished nothing particularly exceptional that would justify any sort of special treatment. C) The unapologetic and crass style of the EG management in both the acquisition of Puma and the PR mess that followed has alienated a large section of the community that puts a high premium on "manner". The general sense of disgust and contempt has been large enough that the backlash has even got people raging out at djWHEAT and threatening to boycott his show. D) Puma has every right to pursue his dreams and to be rewarded for his successes but the speed with which this all went down suggests that he was offered quick money after his first taste of success and jumped at it immediately without considering the welfare of his team or even the long-term future of his career. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, TSL has had some very well-compensated players (Fruitdealer, etc.). In a real business environment if an executive is being headhunted by competition or people from another industry it is standard practice in Western society to notify your employer of the offer and give them time and opportunity to counter it. Given the time-frame of this fiasco it doesn't seem like that is at all what happened (though we obviously don't know everything). The amount of juvenile speculation and platitudes from the ignorant about "how business really works" further inflames the people who are just looking for a bit of professionalism, "manner", and civility. I think that this entire situation could have been managed much more amicably, but instead we might be seeing the spark that lights the flame of KeSPA #2. There's nothing to be rejoicing about here at all. A) Hasty assumption. EG is setting up a team house. No reason to assume that the team house will prove to be incapable of matching the Korean training environment. Also no reason to assume that Puma doesn't still have plenty of practice partners in Korea. B) I assume you're implying here that Puma (not EG) should have given TSL more opportunity to make a counter-offer and keep him on the team. Fine, but I don't see why anyone cares much about how Puma treated his team. What does it matter to you, you're not going to be a fan of Puma now? The concern of us westerners is really with how EG handled the matter. C) Doesn't seem very a accurate. A "large section of the community" has been alienated by EG? The impression I've gotten throughout this thread is that a majority of posters don't think EG did anything wrong. There are tons and tons of posts in this thread to that effect. Also, you claim that the posts "raging out at djwheat" are evidence of the largeness of the "general sense of contempt and disgust." Not really, could just be a couple of angry posters. Again, while there are certainly posters displaying contempt and disgust towards EG in this thread, my impression is that the majority of them are not. D) You have absolutely no idea whether Puma gave proper consideration to his team and his long-term career. We know that he took two weeks to make a decision. What makes you think two weeks is too fast to give consideration to the things you mention? You merely have an opinion of Puma's end decision, an opinion which Puma may well disagree with after proper consideration. A) EG said Puma is staying in Korea and even if he were to leave Korea and move to EGs team house most feel his skill would only deteriorate. He would practice with the likes of inControL, Axslav, DeMusliM, StrifeCro, LzGamer and Machine. Players would wouldn't even be Korean masters (code B). IdrA would be his only help there and it would still be a downgrade esp. with the language barrier. B) Why wouldn't how Puma treated his team matter? He is going to be participating in all foreign LANs now and I for one see no reason to support him anymore. C) You are either delusional or haven't read this thread. The impression I've gotten throughout this thread is that a majority of posters don't think EG did anything wrong Please read this thread again or tell me you are an EG employee D) I'm pretty sure the decision was agreed upon following NASL. He didn't give any thought and chose to follow the money. So because he disagrees with you he must be an EG employee? EG hasn't said for sure what Puma will be doing. He's not even signed yet. Your final point is nothing but your personal opinion, you have no idea if he gave it any thought or not (which I'd bet money he did).
The majority of this thread is anti-EG posts claiming the way they acquired puma was legal, but terribly wrong.
How is that an opinion?
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EPT
