|
On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted.
Well known fact that Sen's contract is coming to an end soon (August?). Anyways, even approaching players with a contract is fine. It is simply to ask when it ends and if they would be open to joining EG after. What's wrong with that?
I don't think EG can really be faulted for approaching any players and trying to recruit (whatever that players current contractual situation is). They ask players whether they are in a situation to join EG. Player says no (because I have contract or for some other reason) and EG moves on. They found someone that was without a contract and wanted to switch teams. What did EG do wrong? Not a damn thing...
|
On July 24 2011 02:27 TheStonerer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Sen's contract is ending soon. It's normal for other teams to contact him.
I think Teams approach the Manager first, not the players. Atleast from what I know.
|
I feel like DJWheat was placed in an awkward position, but I'm still going to boycott all his shows until he comes out condemning AG's actions against Milkis on WoC and EG's transgressions with Puma.
As for the team EG, I've only been following Demuslim and Idra. I'll still root for them, but I will try to refrain from supporting EG (i.e. watching the Kingston Hyperx videos, etc). AG said he wouldn't have changed his approached if he knew what he knows now. I can't support an organization that doesn't take responsibility for its actions and deals with shady tactics.
|
On July 24 2011 02:28 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Well known fact that Sen's contract is coming to an end soon (August?). Anyways, even approaching players with a contract is fine. It is simply to ask when it ends and if they would be open to joining EG after. What's wrong with that? I don't think EG can really be faulted for approaching any players and trying to recruit (whatever that players current contractual situation is). They ask players whether they are in a situation to join EG. Player says no (because I have contract or for some other reason) and EG moves on. They found someone that was without a contract and wanted to switch teams. What did EG do wrong? Not a damn thing...
It's one thing to ask for player's interest level, but when you start throwing down salary figures then you are definitely crossing the line.
|
On July 24 2011 02:22 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:12 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:06 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:03 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:00 Twoinches wrote:On July 24 2011 01:49 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 01:43 snakeeyez wrote:
I do not see this situation as any different then when you work at your current job, and without the boss permission you go to interview at a different company and then get hired and quite your current job. Yes your current company and boss are surprised or disappointed but hey that is life. You have to be in it to win it and make your own decisions right or wrong. Do Koreans think its right or wrong? I dont know and that is something Puma had to decide, but from a legal stand point Puma can do whatever the hell he wants. If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong. yeah you cant sue someone for looking for employment. he did what he was sent to do, He won. and he found himself a nice little deal during his visit so gg puma. qq people who dont understand laws. This is not true. A player's job isn't to win because if it was all other players failed and should be fired. A players job is to represent his team and their sponsors. That job doesn't begin with the start of the games and end with the "gg". So instead of using the time to promote team and sponsors he was searching for employment, on company time. And this is surely winable in any court. No it's not. There was no contract. How can anything be winable in court? And even if there was, the contract surely won't stipulate what times of day he is actually working for the sponsor and what times of day he isn't. I think we can both agree that the player should not be responsible for representing his company 24 hours a day while he is at an event. He should certainly be given time to eat/sleep/free time to do whatever he pleases. But you fail to understand what has been stated numerous times in this thread, contracts do not have to be always in written form. And it can easily be argued that even though he might not be obligated to represent team/sponsor 24 hours a day, TSL clearly didn't send him there to do something that is directly damaging to the immediate and future interests of the team (which includes negotiating for another employment). So be it. Even if it was a verbal contract, what they agreed on would be something to the effect of, we pay for you to go to NASL, you represent TSL at the event. He did exactly that. And one can argue that he met with EG in passing on a lunch break or behind the scene or something. That can't be considered against his contractual agreement to TSL. How is him talking to scoots or whoever at NASL damaging to TSL? It doesn't hurt their reputation. He is still wearing a TSL jersey and representing TSL at the event (which is what he was paid to do). And how is he damaging the future of TSL? He certainly isn't. He just isn't helping them. I don't think you could ever remotely consider his "agreement" with them to include staying with them for as long as they want him to. His agreement would be something to the effect of, while you are a member of this team you are bound to do a, b, and c. It's not like PuMa did anything that actually hurts TSL. He just did something that makes it so that they don't continue to benefit from him. There is a big difference. TSL has to be able to argue some form of loss. What did they lose exactly? Just his services for the future. Which he never agreed to give them. You would be crazy to argue that PuMa didn't do his job at NASL. He didn't stop representing TSL after whatever short conversation he had with EG.
You're either trying to play too thick or you're trying to troll. Anyways, even a layman can understand that as a team you'd be able to find better and more sponsors with the NASL season 1 champion on your roster than it would be with 19 year old promising player Puma with no achievements but tons of potential. So leaving after finally becoming a great asset to the team is damaging the interests of the team. Puma agreed to give them his services in the present and in the near future with every time he opened that rice cooker and smiled. And he earned the right to do it again by wearing that TSL jersy.
Further more, if we go on by your logic what is the incentive of any team to help any young talent develop? TSL had all the confidence and good faith in Puma's talent, and he didn't give the same treatment to his team. He didn't even give TSL the chance to accommodate his new needs. He just left.
|
TSL didn't pay for PuMa to go the NASL. They provided travel funds because he won the open tournament.
|
On July 24 2011 02:28 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Well known fact that Sen's contract is coming to an end soon (August?). Anyways, even approaching players with a contract is fine. It is simply to ask when it ends and if they would be open to joining EG after. What's wrong with that? I don't think EG can really be faulted for approaching any players and trying to recruit (whatever that players current contractual situation is). They ask players whether they are in a situation to join EG. Player says no (because I have contract or for some other reason) and EG moves on. They found someone that was without a contract and wanted to switch teams. What did EG do wrong? Not a damn thing...
Another thing - you are completely ignoring the investment the team TSL had put into PuMa. Had EG contacted TSL for the availability of player PuMa, and obviously PuMa wants to join the team EG, I'm sure some kind of deal would have worked out between the two teams and everyone would be happy. It's not that PuMa is no longer with TSL, but it's because TSL did not get anything in return for their investment of PuMa. You can claim all day that PuMa was not under a binding written contract, but that doesn't change the fact that TSL did invest alot in PuMA without seeing any returns.
|
On July 24 2011 02:28 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Well known fact that Sen's contract is coming to an end soon (August?). Anyways, even approaching players with a contract is fine. It is simply to ask when it ends and if they would be open to joining EG after. What's wrong with that? I don't think EG can really be faulted for approaching any players and trying to recruit (whatever that players current contractual situation is). They ask players whether they are in a situation to join EG. Player says no (because I have contract or for some other reason) and EG moves on. They found someone that was without a contract and wanted to switch teams. What did EG do wrong? Not a damn thing...
Ugh, we're starting to beat on a dead horse here. The reason why people are disgusted by this move by EG is well documented in more than half of this thread. I'm not sure that I can add anything to that that you would allow to compute through your brain's thought process.
|
On July 24 2011 02:29 FLu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:27 TheStonerer wrote:On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Sen's contract is ending soon. It's normal for other teams to contact him. I think Teams approach the Manager first, not the players. Atleast from what I know.
You aproach the Manager only if there is a contract and you want to buy it.
If a player is a free agent, or soon to be one, you can just wait it out, and contact the player instead.
if the player is interested in renewing, he should tell his management, "Hey, I have offers, if you want to renew we have to negotiate"
|
On July 24 2011 02:29 FLu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:27 TheStonerer wrote:On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Sen's contract is ending soon. It's normal for other teams to contact him. I think Teams approach the Manager first, not the players. Atleast from what I know.
If the player is not interested he says no, if he was interested he might say talk to my management or say he will tell them some other team would be interested. Or the interested team might go to the other team. In any of those cases, I personally don't think anyone is being wrong.
In the present case, if the TSL coach was at the NASL event, Garfield might have had to talk to him. But he wasn't and Garfield was most likely looking for players doing well at the event.
The other thing that is deplorable is Coach Lee being all cool and stuff while talking to PUMA and even throwing him a goodbye party. Then backstabbing him and going to a media outlet, shitting on the interested team, instead of contacting EG and asking for clarifications and stuff. He decided to be a douche about it and make it quite difficult for Puma emotionally.
|
On July 24 2011 02:38 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:28 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Well known fact that Sen's contract is coming to an end soon (August?). Anyways, even approaching players with a contract is fine. It is simply to ask when it ends and if they would be open to joining EG after. What's wrong with that? I don't think EG can really be faulted for approaching any players and trying to recruit (whatever that players current contractual situation is). They ask players whether they are in a situation to join EG. Player says no (because I have contract or for some other reason) and EG moves on. They found someone that was without a contract and wanted to switch teams. What did EG do wrong? Not a damn thing... Ugh, we're starting to beat on a dead horse here. The reason why people are disgusted by this move by EG is well documented in more than half of this thread. I'm not sure that I can add anything to that that you would allow to compute through your brain's thought process.
Please do not resort to personal insults to explain your point. Instead, you could be the sensible person and agree to disagree if you think there is nothing more to be said. I am starting to hope the thread is closed because most of the talk here is just being "i'm right, you're wrong" on both sides.
|
It's about respect. Doesn't surprise me that EG didn't contact any sort of person who had actually taken the TIME and ENERGY out of their LIFE to help this player (contract or no contract, his previous "coach" made sacrifices to help Puma as much as he could). It doesn't surprise me because 9 out of 10 people nowadays have no respect for anything or anyone anymore.
Way to keep up with the status quo guys. Real commendable.
|
On July 24 2011 02:36 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:28 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Well known fact that Sen's contract is coming to an end soon (August?). Anyways, even approaching players with a contract is fine. It is simply to ask when it ends and if they would be open to joining EG after. What's wrong with that? I don't think EG can really be faulted for approaching any players and trying to recruit (whatever that players current contractual situation is). They ask players whether they are in a situation to join EG. Player says no (because I have contract or for some other reason) and EG moves on. They found someone that was without a contract and wanted to switch teams. What did EG do wrong? Not a damn thing... Another thing - you are completely ignoring the investment the team TSL had put into PuMa. Had EG contacted TSL for the availability of player PuMa, and obviously PuMa wants to join the team EG, I'm sure some kind of deal would have worked out between the two teams and everyone would be happy. It's not that PuMa is no longer with TSL, but it's because TSL did not get anything in return for their investment of PuMa. You can claim all day that PuMa was not under a binding written contract, but that doesn't change the fact that TSL did invest alot in PuMA without seeing any returns.
Exactly. And besides, even if you're offered a better deal, the least you can do out of respect for your old employer is to allow him to match the offer first.
|
On July 24 2011 02:42 TheStonerer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:38 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:28 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Well known fact that Sen's contract is coming to an end soon (August?). Anyways, even approaching players with a contract is fine. It is simply to ask when it ends and if they would be open to joining EG after. What's wrong with that? I don't think EG can really be faulted for approaching any players and trying to recruit (whatever that players current contractual situation is). They ask players whether they are in a situation to join EG. Player says no (because I have contract or for some other reason) and EG moves on. They found someone that was without a contract and wanted to switch teams. What did EG do wrong? Not a damn thing... Ugh, we're starting to beat on a dead horse here. The reason why people are disgusted by this move by EG is well documented in more than half of this thread. I'm not sure that I can add anything to that that you would allow to compute through your brain's thought process. Please do not resort to personal insults to explain your point. Instead, you could be the sensible person and agree to disagree if you think there is nothing more to be said. I am starting to hope the thread is closed because most of the talk here is just being "i'm right, you're wrong" on both sides.
Uhm.. maybe I didn't choose the right words, English is not my first language. I didn't intend to challenge his mental capacity, but his thought process, as in I believe that he sees the whole issue from a vantage point that makes him blind or unable to perceive some of my arguments.
|
seriously if your gunna make a reply to me atleast do me the courtesy of not editing in more info in ur posts once iv already replied... sure edit if u got some spelling mistakes or w/e but common, dont make me check pages back for ur "additions"
This thead is about "Puma leaves for EG", specifically the actions and course of events from the three parties involved namely EG, TSL and PumA as a person.
You claim the whole US scene is different from the whole EU scene, while all your knowledge is really limited to the UK wc3+css scene.
i said the UK scene (which is apart of europe) does not opperate the way EG are making out everyone outside of korea does (refering to what Alex said on WoC). From my experience in the Wc3 + CSS scenes it opperates totally differently and the UK scene in those games were at one point (css still is) one of the best around. The way you talk is asif the UK scene is tiny or has never been great.
The way EG approached a guy who was sent in good faith to have fun and represent a scene was sly... no doubt about it. if TSL had any idea those kinda things were gunna happen no way would he of been sent or atleast not without proper things being put in place first (things that now will be mandatory probably)
EG saw an oppertunity to get more than 1 good player on their roster and took it, at the expense of burning bridges with a whole scene (judging by the vast majority of feedback). Look at the other orgs who have recently aquired sc2 players/teams (SK, Dignitas, FXO etc).... all of which have had nothing but support from everyone because it was done properly. Moves like those help grow the scene sending players to more events and in FXOs case taking financial stress away from the team as well as adding oppertunities.. However EG just poached TSLs Ace when he was supposed to be there representing TSL. Now contracts will be rife (not always a good thing, just look at sc1) to stop this in the future and trust issues with korean teams and sending them to international events will be there.... which does not help the scene
Its not a coincidence the majority of the community think EG were wrong in the way they picked up puma
|
On July 24 2011 02:39 TheStonerer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:29 FLu wrote:On July 24 2011 02:27 TheStonerer wrote:On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Sen's contract is ending soon. It's normal for other teams to contact him. I think Teams approach the Manager first, not the players. Atleast from what I know. If the player is not interested he says no, if he was interested he might say talk to my management or say he will tell them some other team would be interested. Or the interested team might go to the other team. In any of those cases, I personally don't think anyone is being wrong. In the present case, if the TSL coach was at the NASL event, Garfield might have had to talk to him. But he wasn't and Garfield was most likely looking for players doing well at the event. The other thing that is deplorable is Coach Lee being all cool and stuff while talking to PUMA and even throwing him a goodbye party. Then backstabbing him and going to a media outlet, shitting on the interested team, instead of contacting EG and asking for clarifications and stuff. He decided to be a douche about it and make it quite difficult for Puma emotionally.
Hrmm.. I don't know how you can bend things so much and get to the point where the offended party didn't act gracefully enough. A player just had become a team asset and left for a foreign team without even the chance to match the offer. And then the guy that arguably invested the most time, effort and emotion into the player is a douche for being pissed about it? It made it difficult for Puma emotionally? So we should have regards for the emotions of Puma and EG, but not for the coach and for TSL?
Bottom line, how could this be to the benefit of the players anyhow? Especially how can this benefit young unproven players? The only way any team will start developing talent is only if they chain them down with long term contracts. And this long term contracts in turn mean if a player is successful he will be shafted with unfavorable terms till the contract expires.
|
On July 24 2011 02:32 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:22 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:12 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:06 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:03 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:00 Twoinches wrote:On July 24 2011 01:49 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 01:43 snakeeyez wrote:
I do not see this situation as any different then when you work at your current job, and without the boss permission you go to interview at a different company and then get hired and quite your current job. Yes your current company and boss are surprised or disappointed but hey that is life. You have to be in it to win it and make your own decisions right or wrong. Do Koreans think its right or wrong? I dont know and that is something Puma had to decide, but from a legal stand point Puma can do whatever the hell he wants. If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong. yeah you cant sue someone for looking for employment. he did what he was sent to do, He won. and he found himself a nice little deal during his visit so gg puma. qq people who dont understand laws. This is not true. A player's job isn't to win because if it was all other players failed and should be fired. A players job is to represent his team and their sponsors. That job doesn't begin with the start of the games and end with the "gg". So instead of using the time to promote team and sponsors he was searching for employment, on company time. And this is surely winable in any court. No it's not. There was no contract. How can anything be winable in court? And even if there was, the contract surely won't stipulate what times of day he is actually working for the sponsor and what times of day he isn't. I think we can both agree that the player should not be responsible for representing his company 24 hours a day while he is at an event. He should certainly be given time to eat/sleep/free time to do whatever he pleases. But you fail to understand what has been stated numerous times in this thread, contracts do not have to be always in written form. And it can easily be argued that even though he might not be obligated to represent team/sponsor 24 hours a day, TSL clearly didn't send him there to do something that is directly damaging to the immediate and future interests of the team (which includes negotiating for another employment). So be it. Even if it was a verbal contract, what they agreed on would be something to the effect of, we pay for you to go to NASL, you represent TSL at the event. He did exactly that. And one can argue that he met with EG in passing on a lunch break or behind the scene or something. That can't be considered against his contractual agreement to TSL. How is him talking to scoots or whoever at NASL damaging to TSL? It doesn't hurt their reputation. He is still wearing a TSL jersey and representing TSL at the event (which is what he was paid to do). And how is he damaging the future of TSL? He certainly isn't. He just isn't helping them. I don't think you could ever remotely consider his "agreement" with them to include staying with them for as long as they want him to. His agreement would be something to the effect of, while you are a member of this team you are bound to do a, b, and c. It's not like PuMa did anything that actually hurts TSL. He just did something that makes it so that they don't continue to benefit from him. There is a big difference. TSL has to be able to argue some form of loss. What did they lose exactly? Just his services for the future. Which he never agreed to give them. You would be crazy to argue that PuMa didn't do his job at NASL. He didn't stop representing TSL after whatever short conversation he had with EG. You're either trying to play too thick or you're trying to troll. Anyways, even a layman can understand that as a team you'd be able to find better and more sponsors with the NASL season 1 champion on your roster than it would be with 19 year old promising player Puma with no achievements but tons of potential. So leaving after finally becoming a great asset to the team is damaging the interests of the team. Puma agreed to give them his services in the present and in the near future with every time he opened that rice cooker and smiled. And he earned the right to do it again by wearing that TSL jersy. Further more, if we go on by your logic what is the incentive of any team to help any young talent develop? TSL had all the confidence and good faith in Puma's talent, and he didn't give the same treatment to his team. He didn't even give TSL the chance to accommodate his new needs. He just left.
There is a HUGE difference between damaging a team and not helping it in the future. PuMa chose to stop helping his team (and at the same time, stop accepting anything from them... I take nothing, I give you nothing). He didn't damage the team in any way (by taking and not giving). He just decided to stop helping them grow. Yes it is selfish. But so what? Most people look out for their own interests first.
Anyways, my entire point is he is in no way breaking any sort of verbal contractual agreement. His agreement with them certainly doesn't extend into the future (that's what a contract is for). The agreement would be something to the effect of while you are paying for my accommodations and providing me with a good practice environment, I will do what I can to promote this team. And PuMa certainly did exactly that.
Just remember, TSL didn't exactly get nothing out of PuMa staying in their house. He has been an exceptional practice partner for their other GSL players, has done a good job helping them in the team league and has represented them outstandingly at NASL. He's given back to TSL substantially. Whether they got adequate return on their investment isn't for me to say (or anyone on this forum). But it's not like PuMa was a spoiled brat that didn't do anything for his team. He did everything he could while he was still with them.
I mean what do you guys reasonably expect from him? Turn down a good salary with the opportunity to compete all over the world just for some allegiance to his team? It's ludicrous to think he did anything wrong...
I really don't understand the negativity towards PuMa. The TSL coach isn't even laying any blame on him. The only thing Coach Lee is really angry about is EG not contacting him directly.
Be mad at EG all you want, but PuMa did nothing wrong...
|
On July 24 2011 04:54 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:32 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:12 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:06 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 02:03 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:00 Twoinches wrote:On July 24 2011 01:49 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 01:43 snakeeyez wrote:
I do not see this situation as any different then when you work at your current job, and without the boss permission you go to interview at a different company and then get hired and quite your current job. Yes your current company and boss are surprised or disappointed but hey that is life. You have to be in it to win it and make your own decisions right or wrong. Do Koreans think its right or wrong? I dont know and that is something Puma had to decide, but from a legal stand point Puma can do whatever the hell he wants. If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong. yeah you cant sue someone for looking for employment. he did what he was sent to do, He won. and he found himself a nice little deal during his visit so gg puma. qq people who dont understand laws. This is not true. A player's job isn't to win because if it was all other players failed and should be fired. A players job is to represent his team and their sponsors. That job doesn't begin with the start of the games and end with the "gg". So instead of using the time to promote team and sponsors he was searching for employment, on company time. And this is surely winable in any court. No it's not. There was no contract. How can anything be winable in court? And even if there was, the contract surely won't stipulate what times of day he is actually working for the sponsor and what times of day he isn't. I think we can both agree that the player should not be responsible for representing his company 24 hours a day while he is at an event. He should certainly be given time to eat/sleep/free time to do whatever he pleases. But you fail to understand what has been stated numerous times in this thread, contracts do not have to be always in written form. And it can easily be argued that even though he might not be obligated to represent team/sponsor 24 hours a day, TSL clearly didn't send him there to do something that is directly damaging to the immediate and future interests of the team (which includes negotiating for another employment). So be it. Even if it was a verbal contract, what they agreed on would be something to the effect of, we pay for you to go to NASL, you represent TSL at the event. He did exactly that. And one can argue that he met with EG in passing on a lunch break or behind the scene or something. That can't be considered against his contractual agreement to TSL. How is him talking to scoots or whoever at NASL damaging to TSL? It doesn't hurt their reputation. He is still wearing a TSL jersey and representing TSL at the event (which is what he was paid to do). And how is he damaging the future of TSL? He certainly isn't. He just isn't helping them. I don't think you could ever remotely consider his "agreement" with them to include staying with them for as long as they want him to. His agreement would be something to the effect of, while you are a member of this team you are bound to do a, b, and c. It's not like PuMa did anything that actually hurts TSL. He just did something that makes it so that they don't continue to benefit from him. There is a big difference. TSL has to be able to argue some form of loss. What did they lose exactly? Just his services for the future. Which he never agreed to give them. You would be crazy to argue that PuMa didn't do his job at NASL. He didn't stop representing TSL after whatever short conversation he had with EG. You're either trying to play too thick or you're trying to troll. Anyways, even a layman can understand that as a team you'd be able to find better and more sponsors with the NASL season 1 champion on your roster than it would be with 19 year old promising player Puma with no achievements but tons of potential. So leaving after finally becoming a great asset to the team is damaging the interests of the team. Puma agreed to give them his services in the present and in the near future with every time he opened that rice cooker and smiled. And he earned the right to do it again by wearing that TSL jersy. Further more, if we go on by your logic what is the incentive of any team to help any young talent develop? TSL had all the confidence and good faith in Puma's talent, and he didn't give the same treatment to his team. He didn't even give TSL the chance to accommodate his new needs. He just left. There is a HUGE difference between damaging a team and not helping it in the future. PuMa chose to stop helping his team (and at the same time, stop accepting anything from them... I take nothing, I give you nothing). He didn't damage the team in any way (by taking and not giving). He just decided to stop helping them grow. Yes it is selfish. But so what? Most people look out for their own interests first. Anyways, my entire point is he is in no way breaking any sort of verbal contractual agreement. His agreement with them certainly doesn't extend into the future (that's what a contract is for). The agreement would be something to the effect of while you are paying for my accommodations and providing me with a good practice environment, I will do what I can to promote this team. And PuMa certainly did exactly that. Just remember, TSL didn't exactly get nothing out of PuMa staying in their house. He has been an exceptional practice partner for their other GSL players, has done a good job helping them in the team league and has represented them outstandingly at NASL. He's given back to TSL substantially. Whether they got adequate return on their investment isn't for me to say (or anyone on this forum). But it's not like PuMa was a spoiled brat that didn't do anything for his team. He did everything he could while he was still with them. I mean what do you guys reasonably expect from him? Turn down a good salary with the opportunity to compete all over the world just for some allegiance to his team? It's ludicrous to think he did anything wrong... I really don't understand the negativity towards PuMa. The TSL coach isn't even laying any blame on him. The only thing Coach Lee is really angry about is EG not contacting him directly. Be mad at EG all you want, but PuMa did nothing wrong...
The only thing Puma could be accused of is not doing enough to inform EG of the importance of his coach and team's involvement. But when you're not tied up in a contract that usually says you're free to do what you want in the business world, because it's common sense to think that really.
|
On July 24 2011 02:39 Usagi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2011 02:29 FLu wrote:On July 24 2011 02:27 TheStonerer wrote:On July 24 2011 02:25 svarog wrote:On July 24 2011 02:22 jellyjello wrote:On July 24 2011 02:04 DoomsVille wrote:On July 24 2011 01:51 GoStyle wrote:
If I was your boss and you were sent with company money somewhere to represent the company, and in that time you were negotiating another employment (i.e. not using that time to promote the company/sponsors and do your actual job), I'd sue your ass, contract or no contract, and chances are I'd win. PuMa got off easy, and what he and EG did was wrong.
Yup, well said Are you kidding me? If he has no contract he has no obligation to promote his team or anything. And it's not like PuMa took off his TSL jersey and put on an EG one at NASL. He still did a pretty damn good job of representing TSL at NASL (by winning and having TSLs jersey/name splattered everywhere). PuMa is in no way wrong here. He saw an opportunity and took it. It might be motivated by greed but that doesn't make his actions deplorable or illegal. All business transactions are motivated by greed. I'm sure coach lee is more pissed off at himself for not having player contracts than anything else. He knows this entire situation could have been avoided if he entered a proper agreement with his player. If that were the case, PuMa would have said he was on contract and EG would have backed off. End of discussion. And how is EG in the wrong here? They see a free agent star player and offer him a deal. It's the same thing as the business world... do companies go around talking to each other about potential employees? Of course not. They just offer people contracts/jobs and they accept/refuse based on whatever they want. But they certainly don't go to that persons employer and ask if its ok. Some of you need to get your head out of your asses and understand that e-sports is a business. And from a strictly business standpoint, no party was in the wrong here. You can claim that PuMa is technically a free agent, although last I checked he was wearing TSL uniform representing the team TSL. But, more importantly it's my understanding that EG not only tried to recruite PuMA, but also contacted other Koreans who were present there. Correct me if this is a misinformation, but I don't think EG talking to "free agents" makes whole lot of sense. In the thread there are claims that EG approached Sen as well who is contracted. Sen's contract is ending soon. It's normal for other teams to contact him. I think Teams approach the Manager first, not the players. Atleast from what I know. You aproach the Manager only if there is a contract and you want to buy it.
OR you approach the manager if you want to be respectful and not be a dick.
Realize that something being legal isn't enough in itself, and it doesn't mean it's also ethical. When you piss off a lot of people and burn a lot of bridges the legality of the deal no longer even matters.
I'm pretty sure even EG realizes that after this episode. Although, it's EG... so one can only hope.
On July 24 2011 05:05 Serpico wrote:
But when you're not tied up in a contract that usually says you're free to do what you want in the business world, because it's common sense to think that really.
Problem is that the "business world" does not equal "real world", and that "legal thing to do" does not equal "ethical thing to do".
This actually seems to be the root of the disagreement between two sides - one side just assumes that the rules of business trump everything else, whereas the other side puts a lot of importance into other values.
|
I think this is awesome, I feel like EG has been really trying to grow and TSL has been a mess and acted a little too late in deciding to become more competitive.
I think Puma wants to make a name for himself, and recognizes where to do it. It's obnoxious how many people are rallying against this, some people have a dream and need to support themselves. This sort of loyalty crap is just ridiculous, obviously TSL did not treat Puma with what he needed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
