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On July 22 2011 02:46 Agnosthar wrote:
As a huge admirer of Puma's play, I'm pretty concerned over the quality of his practice as a result of this EG transfer. I'm sure there'll be plenty of koreans that will practice with him, although presumably that's quite different to living in a team house discussing Starcraft 2 and refining new builds and idea's all day.
Team practice with EG seems problematic as well. Partly due to the cross server latency, but also the players EG have ostensibly aren't going to help Puma raise his game. No offence to EG members like Lzgamer, Incontrol and Strifecro, but they are unlikely to be able to give Puma much benefit from training with them.
Does anyone think Puma's quality of practice won't suffer? I'd like to hear your reasons for that.
This also intrigate me. Puma won NASL because of his training pattern at TSL pro house. That win has been the result of good and hardworking practice.
Puma is a very good player with a big potential. I hope he's not gonna sacrifice practice quality for money even though i can understand that.
I feel like EG has to take some responsabilities in here, I really don't know how they are planning to coach and train Puma. The language / geography barrier has to be broken in some way.
I don't know, I don't feel like Puma belongs to EG. They are not ready yet, but I have nothing against bold moves like this. But I'm worried about Puma's future practice and performance now that he left TSL.
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On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami.
Yes, but what I think the more rational people are calling for is that now we need some of the rules and protocols of "ordinary sports" in order to avoid controversial situations like this imo.
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On July 22 2011 02:53 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:50 Pazuzu wrote:
Stop ranting and raving over Puma's transition. First off people don't know exactly what happened, all they know is the end case (or people just feel like warping the facts to be trolls). Secondly if Puma was 'legally' and 'morally' traded there would still be a thread attacking the deal and more arguments anyway.
People should be focusing on how this could be a stepping stone for EG into the Korean scene; set up some form of house-house collaboration like the oGs-Liquid house so that their players can have more experience etc. It presents a good opportunity for the continued development of the community and people should see it as such! If it was seen as shaddy or dishonorable...do you think other teams are going to be willing to team up with eg?
no one knows if it was shady or dishonorable. everyones jumping to conclusions without facts. I think its safe to assume that as a progamer team with a respect for the integrity of the game, they would not break any kind of even moral boundaries on purpose
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On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami.
I do agree. It doesn't seem to be the most noble or "honorable" way of doing things. But I'm just a bit annoyed at how all of this information is not even from some official announcement (no offense Milkis, you're doing a great job!!!)
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To be honest it seems kinda cheap from EG and Puma but EG is one of my favorite teams so D: anyway its TSL fault for not making their players sign a contract
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On July 22 2011 02:51 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:46 Plansix wrote:On July 22 2011 02:16 p1cKLes wrote:On July 22 2011 02:11 BZZ wrote:The point concerning Korean teams being worried to send players to NA/EU events is the most concerning part for me. If teams are worried that sending players to events will lead to "secret" offers to steal their players this will lead to an adversarial stance that is not good for competition. This also has to do with the economics of sponsorship. Big NA/EU teams are getting large sponsors allowing for better player salaries. Korean teams are reliant on smaller local Korean companies for SC2 due to the continued strength of SCBW in terms of taking larger sponsors. Right now, there may be a large exodus of Korean players to foreign teams as they will offer better salaries and financial rewards for performance; see FXOpen & fOu, SK & MC/NADA. I agree..very concerning, and I think this is where EG could have handled the transaction better than they did. I don't disagree with what happen. If i'm a team and I'm in the business of aquiring great players, then I'm in the business of looking for someone like Puma, but I do they could have handled it better. How? How do you tell a team that you want to sign one of best players and have them take it well? Lets travel to a world where someone would do that: Scoots: Hey, TSL, I really like Puma and would like to sign him and offer him more money that you will. I really think he would shine under my managment. TSL: Well, let me think about that...(holds hand over phone) Call our attorneys and check our contract with Puma, quickly. (Removes hand from phone) I'm going to have to discuss this with the coaches. Scoots: Ok, great. Well get back to me and tell me what you think. I want to get your blessing before offering it to Puma. Bye! TSL: Sure.... Or... Scoots: Hey, TSL. I am just signed a contract with Puma. Just wanted to tell you before he told you, because its polite. TSL: Well thanks. You know he was under contract with us? Scoots: Yeah, I was hoping you would release him. We offered him more money and all the Mars Bars he could eat. I'm homing Mars will be his new sponsor. TSL: Yeah, well I'll think about that after we speak with our lawyers. Scoot: Oh come on, your taking this the wrong way. Mars Bars are really good. Let us exit this crazy world where you call people to talk about signing their players to your team. If someone offers me a better job and I have to leave in a week, I will. My job keeps me by treating me well and paying what I am worth. If TSL wants to keep their players, pay them well and treat them well. From what I can tell, EG treats is playesrs well and provides them with the support they need. I don't know about TSL, but Puma must have throught differently. usually the player or the players agent is thrown in there...but thats known as common practice in any other sport? What a suprise 2 buisness men getting together discussing a buisness deal...WHAT?!?! outrageous!
If TSL's contract didn't bind Puma or bar him from playing for another team if he left, why would EG even involve them? People offering me a job wouldn't contact my firm to see if it was ok. If Puma wants to make more money on another team, why shouldn't he?
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United States22883 Posts
On July 22 2011 02:56 drgonzhere wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. Yes, but what I think the more rational people are calling for is that now we need some of the rules and protocols of "ordinary sports" in order to avoid controversial situations like this imo.
That's fine but, more than anything else, I want to do away with shitty, inaccurate analogies.
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On July 22 2011 02:52 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:34 Zinroc wrote:
I see Puma getting a lot worse very soon. EG doesn't have very many good practice partners, and especially not in Korea. When Idra was there he said in a lot of interviews that the only person willing to practice with him was Ret and sometimes other forigners that were there. Puma now doesn't have a team house and will only get practice games with personal friends at those friends lesuire. And even then those friends won't be helping him develop or refine builds since that knowledge is a trade secret of that friends' team.
I'd have to agree with this post. Puma has been living in pro gaming houses for the majority of his pro gaming career. Now he'll probably be living by himself, away from that atmosphere, practicing alone. Sure he'll have practice partners from other teams etc etc, but I don't see him reaching his max potential living and practicing alone. At least the dudes cashing in. Gratz Puma and I wish you the best in the future.
I don't know... Puma does have a reputation of being a practice bonjwa... Even FLASH... (FLASSHHH) practiced with him in SC1, so I'm sure that, because of his reputation, he'll have a much easier time finding practice partners than you might think. Also, the reason IdrA didn't have practice partners was because 1: He can't speak Korean, and 2: All the Koreans hated him anyway because of his BM, sooo, I think Puma will be much better off than IdrA was.
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On July 22 2011 02:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:16 p1cKLes wrote:On July 22 2011 02:11 BZZ wrote:The point concerning Korean teams being worried to send players to NA/EU events is the most concerning part for me. If teams are worried that sending players to events will lead to "secret" offers to steal their players this will lead to an adversarial stance that is not good for competition. This also has to do with the economics of sponsorship. Big NA/EU teams are getting large sponsors allowing for better player salaries. Korean teams are reliant on smaller local Korean companies for SC2 due to the continued strength of SCBW in terms of taking larger sponsors. Right now, there may be a large exodus of Korean players to foreign teams as they will offer better salaries and financial rewards for performance; see FXOpen & fOu, SK & MC/NADA. I agree..very concerning, and I think this is where EG could have handled the transaction better than they did. I don't disagree with what happen. If i'm a team and I'm in the business of aquiring great players, then I'm in the business of looking for someone like Puma, but I do they could have handled it better. How? How do you tell a team that you want to sign one of best players and have them take it well? Lets travel to a world where someone would do that: Scoots: Hey, TSL, I really like Puma and would like to sign him and offer him more money that you will. I really think he would shine under my managment. TSL: Well, let me think about that...(holds hand over phone) Call our attorneys and check our contract with Puma, quickly. (Removes hand from phone) I'm going to have to discuss this with the coaches. Scoots: Ok, great. Well get back to me and tell me what you think. I want to get your blessing before offering it to Puma. Bye! TSL: Sure.... Or... Scoots: Hey, TSL. I am just signed a contract with Puma. Just wanted to tell you before he told you, because its polite. TSL: Well thanks. You know he was under contract with us? Scoots: Yeah, I was hoping you would release him. We offered him more money and all the Mars Bars he could eat. I'm homing Mars will be his new sponsor. TSL: Yeah, well I'll think about that after we speak with our lawyers. Scoot: Oh come on, your taking this the wrong way. Mars Bars are really good. Let us exit this crazy world where you call people to talk about signing their players to your team. If someone offers me a better job and I have to leave in a week, I will. My job keeps me by treating me well and paying what I am worth. If TSL wants to keep their players, pay them well and treat them well. From what I can tell, EG treats is playesrs well and provides them with the support they need. I don't know about TSL, but Puma must have throught differently.
I don't think this has much to do with how you approach a team to purchase a player. It has to do with how events will be perceived by Korean teams.
Puma makes to NASL finals. Incontrol is a major part of NASL. Conversations happen. Puma is signed by EG. In a way, it appears that the event was a recruiting tool for EG.
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At this point EG should just buy the rest of TSL's roster and call it a day.
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On July 22 2011 02:50 Pazuzu wrote:
Stop ranting and raving over Puma's transition. First off people don't know exactly what happened, all they know is the end case (or people just feel like warping the facts to be trolls). Secondly if Puma was 'legally' and 'morally' traded there would still be a thread attacking the deal and more arguments anyway.
People should be focusing on how this could be a stepping stone for EG into the Korean scene; set up some form of house-house collaboration like the oGs-Liquid house so that their players can have more experience etc. It presents a good opportunity for the continued development of the community and people should see it as such!
Coach Lee is famous for being a super nice guy, so to see him say those words is insane. All the coaches/teams are very close to one another because they are all trying to grow SC2 in a BW-dominated Korea.
I wouldn't be surprised to see EG being blacklisted in Korean team relations.
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Puma: I am taking my talents to EG...
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On July 22 2011 02:51 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:46 Plansix wrote:On July 22 2011 02:16 p1cKLes wrote:On July 22 2011 02:11 BZZ wrote:The point concerning Korean teams being worried to send players to NA/EU events is the most concerning part for me. If teams are worried that sending players to events will lead to "secret" offers to steal their players this will lead to an adversarial stance that is not good for competition. This also has to do with the economics of sponsorship. Big NA/EU teams are getting large sponsors allowing for better player salaries. Korean teams are reliant on smaller local Korean companies for SC2 due to the continued strength of SCBW in terms of taking larger sponsors. Right now, there may be a large exodus of Korean players to foreign teams as they will offer better salaries and financial rewards for performance; see FXOpen & fOu, SK & MC/NADA. I agree..very concerning, and I think this is where EG could have handled the transaction better than they did. I don't disagree with what happen. If i'm a team and I'm in the business of aquiring great players, then I'm in the business of looking for someone like Puma, but I do they could have handled it better. How? How do you tell a team that you want to sign one of best players and have them take it well? Lets travel to a world where someone would do that: Scoots: Hey, TSL, I really like Puma and would like to sign him and offer him more money that you will. I really think he would shine under my managment. TSL: Well, let me think about that...(holds hand over phone) Call our attorneys and check our contract with Puma, quickly. (Removes hand from phone) I'm going to have to discuss this with the coaches. Scoots: Ok, great. Well get back to me and tell me what you think. I want to get your blessing before offering it to Puma. Bye! TSL: Sure.... Or... Scoots: Hey, TSL. I am just signed a contract with Puma. Just wanted to tell you before he told you, because its polite. TSL: Well thanks. You know he was under contract with us? Scoots: Yeah, I was hoping you would release him. We offered him more money and all the Mars Bars he could eat. I'm homing Mars will be his new sponsor. TSL: Yeah, well I'll think about that after we speak with our lawyers. Scoot: Oh come on, your taking this the wrong way. Mars Bars are really good. Let us exit this crazy world where you call people to talk about signing their players to your team. If someone offers me a better job and I have to leave in a week, I will. My job keeps me by treating me well and paying what I am worth. If TSL wants to keep their players, pay them well and treat them well. From what I can tell, EG treats is playesrs well and provides them with the support they need. I don't know about TSL, but Puma must have throught differently. usually the player or the players agent is thrown in there...but thats known as common practice in any other sport? What a suprise 2 buisness men getting together discussing a buisness deal...WHAT?!?! outrageous!
What would they discuss? How EG is going to pay Puma more money and there's nothing he can do about it?
What's wrong with Puma telling the TSL manager he's decided to accept a contract from EG? Why is that worse than EG telling the TSL manager that Puma has decided to accept a contract from EG?
How do you know that TSL didn't have an opportunity to counter the offer? How do you know EG imposed a "time-limit" on the signing of the contract? Because they have done it in the past? How is that proof they did it this time.
There's not nearly enough info for us to make judgments about EG. Especially when we're going off of the word of the manager who has just lost 3 of his best players.
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i can actually see PuMa rejoining a Korean team when his contract expires. His practice will surely suffer. And if he ends up in the EG prohouse, what's he gonna think when Incontrol, Idra, and Machine practice four hours a day and then "hit the gym"? I don't think EG can replicate the practice regiment of a Korean team. Is PuMa going to America or staying in Korea?
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People should be focusing on how this could be a stepping stone for EG into the Korean scene; set up some form of house-house collaboration like the oGs-Liquid house so that their players can have more experience etc. It presents a good opportunity for the continued development of the community and people should see it as such!
Dude, this is NOT the same as the oGs-Liquid cooperation. The important word is cooperation. Doesn't seem like it here...and I doubt TSL is very happy to be "working with" EG...
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On July 22 2011 02:59 isospeedrix wrote:
At this point EG should just buy the rest of TSL's roster and call it a day.
Indeed.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 02:53 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:50 Kojaimea wrote:On July 22 2011 02:47 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 02:46 Kojaimea wrote:
There is a reason why many sports require you to go through the management of the team before you approach the player. It avoids cases like this. ....You go through players agents, you don't just walk up to the management and ask for permission to court their best player. You do in Cricket, Football, Rugby, Cycling etc. Approaching the agent or player beforehand is known as 'tapping-up' and ranges from frowned upon to illegal depending on the sport. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapping_up Puma was a free agent, that link has nothing to do with this situation. Free agents are represented by their agents not by the coach of the team they are currently playing for.
I've in large part agreed with your posts thus far, but we just can't say what PuMa's rights to negotiate with other organizations were without knowing whether he was under contract or the terms of that contract.
That aside though, the "tapping up" link is only relevant insofar as it counters people who are comparing this situation to an analogous situation in a league which does have a rule against tapping up. Because there's no rule against tapping up in professional SC2 (to my knowledge, and I'm pretty sure, given that there's no professional organization to create or enforce such a rule), the only written terms that EG and PuMa could have violated are those of any contract PuMa might have had with EG.
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On July 22 2011 03:00 SnakEhead wrote:
Puma: I am taking my talents to EG...
That made me chuckle.
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On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami.
Why TSL can't match or outbid EG's offer? But the player is not forced to accept it, what imo is much better.
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Anyone have some links to PuMa VODs? The only ones I could find were the NASL ones and no way am I paying for those...
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EPT
