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United States22883 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:06 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. FXO Seth is saying the same thing and is a pretty legit guy. Show nested quote +EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth
No, he's a nice guy with Korean connections. That doesn't mean he's privy to TSL's contracts.
Quite frankly none of us are, probably including Milkis and every other "in the know" person posting. If Puma/FD/Trickster were getting paid (which seems to be the case since TSL was reportedly the first SC2 team to start paying people) then there is some sort of contract in place. We give you money, you play/live under our clan/house. That's a contract. Anything beyond that is speculation.
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Seems like a good pickup for EG, would have been fun to see some transfer fees though 
I bet teams will start being more careful about contracts with players now, that they are legally binding etc.
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On July 22 2011 03:01 natey-nate wrote:
Remember how FruitDealer and Trickster just left TSL?
Supposedly they too would have been under contract and yet they were able to leave freely instead of waiting out their contract before joining another team.
Did they also ask to be released?
I feel like the contracts TSL gives its players are weirdly easy to get out of.
Either way TSL was kind of set up for this with FD/Trickster leaving so easily Puma probably thought he could do the same.
Who knows, maybe FruitDealer and Startale were already in talks before FD decided to leave TSL. That would basically make it the same situation as we have here now.
The difference is that FD and Trickster left with the blessings of the TSL coach; it was a mutual agreement, and there was definitely no bad blood when they left. When searching for teams, Trickster actually still consulted with his old coach in order to determine what would be the best practice environment for him and factored that into his decision to join StarTale. Nobody really knows what's up with FD, but seeing as how FD and Trickster room together, he probably did the same. (Or just followed Trickster. Who knows? They're attached at the bloody hip.  )
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United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:06 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. FXO Seth is saying the same thing and is a pretty legit guy. Show nested quote +EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth
We don't know what Sheth means by "free agent". Also, he didn't identify any source and (correct me if I'm wrong) we have no reason to suspect that he'd have inside information on this through his own personal experience (he's not on TSL or EG).
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On July 22 2011 03:08 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:54 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? That's not at all how it works in real sports. What bothers me far more than the EG-TSL situation is all the idiots in this thread who chime in with an inane comment like "this is just like real sports!" when it actually isn't. Professional sports have an organized system of free agency whereby original teams generally get Right Of First Refusal on anyone that isn't an unrestricted free agent. That usually means that they can match or outbid other teams to retain their players. An unrestricted free agent is teamless. While these tiers don't exist in SC2 (yet), it's pretty clear Puma wasn't teamless. We don't know the details of TSL's contracts but it doesn't seem very strong or else it would have a NCC, but that still doesn't make someone an unrestricted free agent, and it still doesn't make this situation anything like professional sports or Lebron/Miami. It's sad that a moderator has to say this for people to listen... but I guess the chance to act cool on the internet is to tempting for most people... This wasn't done correctly, obviously.
There is no "correct" at the moment as there is no ruleset governing the SC2 scene really at the moment, the only rules needing to be followed are existing contracts and if as is being rumored that Puma wasn't signed then nothing "wrong" was done here.
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On July 22 2011 03:08 NineKOne wrote:
Very shady move by EG. Legal, but morally wrong.
Explain morality in this context. Enlighten me.
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On July 22 2011 03:07 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. Isnt this our source for this entire situation? milkis tweets that puma joins eg. coach lee snaps, playxp says the same. Do we have official press from either side?
zlasher is not slasher.
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On July 22 2011 02:57 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:51 Falcor wrote:On July 22 2011 02:46 Plansix wrote:On July 22 2011 02:16 p1cKLes wrote:On July 22 2011 02:11 BZZ wrote:The point concerning Korean teams being worried to send players to NA/EU events is the most concerning part for me. If teams are worried that sending players to events will lead to "secret" offers to steal their players this will lead to an adversarial stance that is not good for competition. This also has to do with the economics of sponsorship. Big NA/EU teams are getting large sponsors allowing for better player salaries. Korean teams are reliant on smaller local Korean companies for SC2 due to the continued strength of SCBW in terms of taking larger sponsors. Right now, there may be a large exodus of Korean players to foreign teams as they will offer better salaries and financial rewards for performance; see FXOpen & fOu, SK & MC/NADA. I agree..very concerning, and I think this is where EG could have handled the transaction better than they did. I don't disagree with what happen. If i'm a team and I'm in the business of aquiring great players, then I'm in the business of looking for someone like Puma, but I do they could have handled it better. How? How do you tell a team that you want to sign one of best players and have them take it well? Lets travel to a world where someone would do that: Scoots: Hey, TSL, I really like Puma and would like to sign him and offer him more money that you will. I really think he would shine under my managment. TSL: Well, let me think about that...(holds hand over phone) Call our attorneys and check our contract with Puma, quickly. (Removes hand from phone) I'm going to have to discuss this with the coaches. Scoots: Ok, great. Well get back to me and tell me what you think. I want to get your blessing before offering it to Puma. Bye! TSL: Sure.... Or... Scoots: Hey, TSL. I am just signed a contract with Puma. Just wanted to tell you before he told you, because its polite. TSL: Well thanks. You know he was under contract with us? Scoots: Yeah, I was hoping you would release him. We offered him more money and all the Mars Bars he could eat. I'm homing Mars will be his new sponsor. TSL: Yeah, well I'll think about that after we speak with our lawyers. Scoot: Oh come on, your taking this the wrong way. Mars Bars are really good. Let us exit this crazy world where you call people to talk about signing their players to your team. If someone offers me a better job and I have to leave in a week, I will. My job keeps me by treating me well and paying what I am worth. If TSL wants to keep their players, pay them well and treat them well. From what I can tell, EG treats is playesrs well and provides them with the support they need. I don't know about TSL, but Puma must have throught differently. usually the player or the players agent is thrown in there...but thats known as common practice in any other sport? What a suprise 2 buisness men getting together discussing a buisness deal...WHAT?!?! outrageous! If TSL's contract didn't bind Puma or bar him from playing for another team if he left, why would EG even involve them? People offering me a job wouldn't contact my firm to see if it was ok. If Puma wants to make more money on another team, why shouldn't he?
I agree. I guess I'll be brutally honest and say I really don't care about TSL, because I don't care about the label of a team. I care more about the players within them, and if Puma wants to go to EG then he shouldn't let anything stop him. Since competitive SC2 is a 1v1 game, teams exist to support players in terms of finance, comfort, practice etc. While I am aware that teams have good chemistry, that doesn't make it a team game.
I understand that people say that things work differently in Korea. But wouldn't the responsibility fall on Puma to act according to protocol? I doubt that EG wouldn't be willing to speak with TSL if Puma requested it in order to discuss a transaction (which at this point I'm pretty sure isn't even 100% clear).
While people are going to continue discussing the morality of leaving a team for a more well funded one, I think people should stop bad mouthing EG for doing its function (seek talent, train talent, make money, do it again). I just think people find it easier to criticize an organization since I'm sure questioning Puma's personal choices would be viewed as absurd and intrusive.
Wait...
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On July 22 2011 03:08 NineKOne wrote:
Very shady move by EG. Legal, but morally wrong.
He is a free agent he got no binding contract with TSL so EG got every right to approach him or any other teams..
I dont understand all the complain towards EG this is so good for esport and the players. When teams are figthing over players that means the living condition will improve for the players. So we should all be happy.
And lol at the TSL headcoach maybe you should have signed a binding contract with puma if you wanted to keep him. I got no idea how it works in Korea but it sounds like bad team management.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:09 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:06 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. FXO Seth is saying the same thing and is a pretty legit guy. EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth No, he's a nice guy with Korean connections. That doesn't mean he's privy to TSL's contracts. Quite frankly none of us are, probably including Milkis and every other "in the know" person posting. If Puma/FD/Trickster were getting paid (which seems to be the case since TSL was reportedly the first SC2 team to start paying people) then there is some sort of contract in place. We give you money, you play/live under our clan/house. That's a contract. Anything beyond that is speculation.
Jibba, source on TSL paying its players? This is news to me; I've been reading in this thread that PuMa was making nothing.
Payment definitely implies a contract. But who knows whether that contract included anything about talking to competing teams, or early termination.
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On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind.
Kelly Milkies has said no knows whether or not Puma was under a contract. Zlasher responded only saying EG wouldn't have done this if he wasn't a free agent. (cites their history abiding by contracts to acquire DeMuslim)
either way i have a feeling the TSL contract situation is rather muddy as no one has come forward with any concrete evidence either way yet.
I'm guessing EG is in the clear though.
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On July 22 2011 03:12 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:09 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:06 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. FXO Seth is saying the same thing and is a pretty legit guy. EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth No, he's a nice guy with Korean connections. That doesn't mean he's privy to TSL's contracts. Quite frankly none of us are, probably including Milkis and every other "in the know" person posting. If Puma/FD/Trickster were getting paid (which seems to be the case since TSL was reportedly the first SC2 team to start paying people) then there is some sort of contract in place. We give you money, you play/live under our clan/house. That's a contract. Anything beyond that is speculation. Jibba, source on TSL paying its players? This is news to me; I've been reading in this thread that PuMa was making nothing. Payment definitely implies a contract. But who knows whether that contract included anything about talking to competing teams, or early termination.
here's the TL article: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201086
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On July 22 2011 03:05 JWD wrote:I can't find where Zlasher got this information. He at one point tweeted "PlayXP says he wasn't under a contract" (which would be big information) but then said "That could potentially be wrong sorry ;o" Just did some more snooping and found that 10 hours ago Milkis tweeted this http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis/status/93943666883829762"No one knows if Puma was or wasn't under a contract so let's not speculate over that stuff ^_^" Since he's probably most familiar with the breaking news on this I think it's safe to assume that whether PuMa had a contract is up in the air. Because the TSL coach didn't mention it in the article in the OP I'm guessing not, but that's pure speculation on my part.
Even if Puma was or not in contract, that's not the point. He was in some kind of moral contract with his team : even amateurs have moral contract with their team. I'm in a team, and switching to another team without talking first to the leaders of my current team would not be a good way to do it...
Contract or not, EG should have talked to TSL first, not to bargain with them but just to clarify the situation and move on.
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On July 22 2011 03:12 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:09 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:06 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. FXO Seth is saying the same thing and is a pretty legit guy. EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth No, he's a nice guy with Korean connections. That doesn't mean he's privy to TSL's contracts. Quite frankly none of us are, probably including Milkis and every other "in the know" person posting. If Puma/FD/Trickster were getting paid (which seems to be the case since TSL was reportedly the first SC2 team to start paying people) then there is some sort of contract in place. We give you money, you play/live under our clan/house. That's a contract. Anything beyond that is speculation. Jibba, source on TSL paying its players? This is news to me; I've been reading in this thread that PuMa was making nothing. Payment definitely implies a contract. But who knows whether that contract included anything about talking to competing teams, or early termination.
I dont have the link for you but there was a report on TL that they were paying all their players salary and the first to do so in korea.
That def. implies that theres a contract. But, recent events, such as FD, rain, trickster leaving, just makes it seem like those contracts are a joke and easy to get out of, despite the fact that you get paid.
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United Kingdom38257 Posts
On July 22 2011 03:12 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:09 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:06 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. FXO Seth is saying the same thing and is a pretty legit guy. EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth No, he's a nice guy with Korean connections. That doesn't mean he's privy to TSL's contracts. Quite frankly none of us are, probably including Milkis and every other "in the know" person posting. If Puma/FD/Trickster were getting paid (which seems to be the case since TSL was reportedly the first SC2 team to start paying people) then there is some sort of contract in place. We give you money, you play/live under our clan/house. That's a contract. Anything beyond that is speculation. Jibba, source on TSL paying its players? This is news to me; I've been reading in this thread that PuMa was making nothing. Payment definitely implies a contract. But who knows whether that contract included anything about talking to competing teams, or early termination.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201086
1) TSL (Team SCV Life) will become the first StarCraft 2 Team to give salary to it's players. The first payday will be on April 10th.
2) This was possible because TSL was the first team to draw major sponsors for the team, mainly hardware manufacturers. They were satisfied with the positive effect the team gave them through advertisement and such, and decided to raise the sponsorship value. According to coach Lee "There was an increase of 60%"
3) There are currently 9 players playing for the TSL as of now. The two highest paid players will be Kim Won Ki AKA TSL.FruitDealer and Seo Ki Soo AKA TSL.Trickster, with 35,000,000 KRW (around 31,000 US$) and 30,000,000 KRW (around 27,000 US$) a year respectively.
Whether or not everyone was being paid isn't specified though/.
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On July 22 2011 03:14 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:05 JWD wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. I can't find where Zlasher got this information. He at one point tweeted "PlayXP says he wasn't under a contract" (which would be big information) but then said "That could potentially be wrong sorry ;o" Just did some more snooping and found that 10 hours ago Milkis tweeted this http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis/status/93943666883829762"No one knows if Puma was or wasn't under a contract so let's not speculate over that stuff ^_^" Since he's probably most familiar with the breaking news on this I think it's safe to assume that whether PuMa had a contract is up in the air. Because the TSL coach didn't mention it in the article in the OP I'm guessing not, but that's pure speculation on my part. Even if Puma was or not in contract, that's not the point. He was in some kind of moral contract with his team : even amateurs have moral contract with their team. I'm in a team, and switching to another team without talking first to the leaders of my current team would not be a good way to do it... Contract or not, EG should have talked to TSL first, not to bargain with them but just to clarify the situation and move on.
moral contract lol
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On July 22 2011 03:12 JWD wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 03:09 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:06 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 03:04 Jibba wrote:On July 22 2011 03:02 Proko wrote:http://twitter.com/#!/zlasher12According to Zlasher, Puma was a free agent. This makes the deal open and shut in my mind. This should never be your source on anything, ever. FXO Seth is saying the same thing and is a pretty legit guy. EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth No, he's a nice guy with Korean connections. That doesn't mean he's privy to TSL's contracts. Quite frankly none of us are, probably including Milkis and every other "in the know" person posting. If Puma/FD/Trickster were getting paid (which seems to be the case since TSL was reportedly the first SC2 team to start paying people) then there is some sort of contract in place. We give you money, you play/live under our clan/house. That's a contract. Anything beyond that is speculation. Jibba, source on TSL paying its players? This is news to me; I've been reading in this thread that PuMa was making nothing. Payment definitely implies a contract. But who knows whether that contract included anything about talking to competing teams, or early termination.
Team Liquid Search-fu has lead me to this thread.
Can't read Korean so I can't comment on its sources but if they did continue with this and Puma has been a member of TSL for long enough then it does seem that he was indeed salaried.
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United States33713 Posts
coach lee talked with Teamliquid, updated with new info :O
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I wish EG would release an official statement. Given all the passive aggressive remarks we've been getting from Scoots and the trolling from iNcontrol last night, I really don't think there's anything more than what meets the eye here. If they were clearly in the right, they'd have already released a statement to do damage control.
Man, I'm so confused.
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United States12607 Posts
Thanks very much for that link guys. I'm going to update the OP with that information. Definitely suggests that there was some contract between TSL and PuMa, but who knows whether this incident implicates any of its terms.
Edit: oh wowowow, Coach Lee's statement seems to confirm that there was no contract.
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EPT
