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On July 22 2011 02:34 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:30 drgonzhere wrote:
Personally I think Gom needs to give up their exclusivity on broadcasting and allow organizations like Kespa to step in. Kespa would never let something like this happen.
Why would we want Kespa anywhere near SC2? The players are already pretty overworked and underpaided, do we really need to further exploit them by bringing in Kespa? If you have a good player you need to sign them or yes other teams will court them. Show nested quote +EG offered a free agent a contract. The free agent decided to accept it. The team that didn't want to contract player is upset they didn't - FXOSeth How exactly else would you have liked this to happen? Should Puma not be allowed to accept better deals? Do you think the team owns him or something?
Kespa is not the answer alone. If a Kespa system were to ever come to fruition, the players would literally need to form together and create a union that protects their rights so they aren't just pawns as they had been in the past. It would be very messy but if cool heads came together and approaches this like other sports, it could happen. I don't think its what would be best, when noncallable get more legally involved eventually shit hits the fan and the two sides go to war (see lockout situations in sports)
I agree teams need to protect their investments but that's up to the teams not the players. Teams need to so their due dillegence when dealing with investments. In the end I don't think the players could form a strong enough stance on protecting their rights, and without a union keeping Kespa in check you would have the ugliest situation possible for the players involved.
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its just bad process imo. maybe its the way cookie crumbles but there would be 0 drama if EG just did what a mannered management would do, contact management.
any talk of transfer should not come from the player AFTER they have been approached by another management.
EG should have at least contacted TSL after talking with puma(before puma talks to tsl about it), it seems like TSL heard it from puma himself which makes this all very shady.
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On July 22 2011 02:38 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:36 BZZ wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
"There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this"
.....a solid contract..... Yes, EG probably should have consulted the managers, so they could work out EG's offer. Ultimately it's Puma's decision to make, but by the time TSL was involved, he had pretty much commited to EG's offer. "Foul" play by EG I suppose, but TSL didn't exactly do the best job as managers. I'm just happy to see him go to my favorite progaming team  I don't think that a contract is really the issue in terms of players being moved to foreign teams. If a player does not want to continue with a particular team it would be very hard to keep them... how do you ensure that they will perform? They could simply just refuse to play or play poorly. The only way to regulate the movement of players, particularly across continents, is to have a governing body that regulates the SC2 teams & events. That would lead to possible punishment for a team that "steals" another player by being fined or excluded from events. If they refuse to play or play poorly then any offer given to them can be reduced becasue its likely that their old team that holds their contract will offer them much less then they would have otherwise. meaning other teams now can offer that player less to compete with other offers. And just becasue they are under contract doesnt mean they cant move, just means that the other team will need to buy out the old contract. Having 1 governing body imo is bad.
I disagree that having a governing body is bad. I think people might react negatively to this idea because of past experience with KESPA. However, a body made up of repesentatives from all groups, players, teams, events/broadcasters, could be quite good, particularly if participation was voluntary and the process by which rules were created was open and by consensus. Such a group could be funded by a small payment from all participants.
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SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't. Why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity?
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There is a reason why many sports require you to go through the management of the team before you approach the player. It avoids cases like this.
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As a huge admirer of Puma's play, I'm pretty concerned over the quality of his practice as a result of this EG transfer. I'm sure there'll be plenty of koreans that will practice with him, although presumably that's quite different to living in a team house discussing Starcraft 2 and refining new builds and idea's all day.
Team practice with EG seems problematic as well. Partly due to the cross server latency, but also the players EG have ostensibly aren't going to help Puma raise his game. No offence to EG members like Lzgamer, Incontrol and Strifecro, but they are unlikely to be able to give Puma much benefit from training with them.
Does anyone think Puma's quality of practice won't suffer? I'd like to hear your reasons for that.
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EG s'crazy. But seriously, cool to see  Puma on a foreign team. I guess EG could have given the coach a little heads up, but maybe the coach wouldn't have let it happen, as apparent with his statements.
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United States12607 Posts
On July 22 2011 02:44 jinorazi wrote:
EG should have at least contacted TSL after talking with puma(before puma talks to tsl about it), it seems like TSL heard it from puma himself which makes this all very shady.
I don't understand this at all. Maybe EG and PuMa agreed that since PuMa has an existing relationship with TSL, it would be better if he broke the news. Or maybe PuMa himself volunteered since he felt it was only right that he approach his team personally. Why does it make a difference whether TSL talked to EG or to PuMa?
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clidekj Hankyujong
Positively
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On July 22 2011 02:45 JasKo wrote:
SOME of you are ridiculous do you not know how it works in real sports? the player normally goes to the highest bidder, loyalty is sometimes involved, but only when the money change wont make that much of a difference. What EG did wasn't shady, in fact, it is helping players to actually be able to make a living off of e sports. TSL could have offered more, but they couldn't why should Puma, and other players, be deprived of this opportunity? No one knows that TSL had an opportunity to make a better offer. Based on the reaction from the coach and the circumstance, it doesn't sound like it. But again, all we are doing is speculating.
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On July 22 2011 02:16 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:11 BZZ wrote:The point concerning Korean teams being worried to send players to NA/EU events is the most concerning part for me. If teams are worried that sending players to events will lead to "secret" offers to steal their players this will lead to an adversarial stance that is not good for competition. This also has to do with the economics of sponsorship. Big NA/EU teams are getting large sponsors allowing for better player salaries. Korean teams are reliant on smaller local Korean companies for SC2 due to the continued strength of SCBW in terms of taking larger sponsors. Right now, there may be a large exodus of Korean players to foreign teams as they will offer better salaries and financial rewards for performance; see FXOpen & fOu, SK & MC/NADA. I agree..very concerning, and I think this is where EG could have handled the transaction better than they did. I don't disagree with what happen. If i'm a team and I'm in the business of aquiring great players, then I'm in the business of looking for someone like Puma, but I do they could have handled it better.
How? How do you tell a team that you want to sign one of best players and have them take it well?
Lets travel to a world where someone would do that:
Scoots: Hey, TSL, I really like Puma and would like to sign him and offer him more money that you will. I really think he would shine under my managment.
TSL: Well, let me think about that...(holds hand over phone) Call our attorneys and check our contract with Puma, quickly. (Removes hand from phone) I'm going to have to discuss this with the coaches.
Scoots: Ok, great. Well get back to me and tell me what you think. I want to get your blessing before offering it to Puma. Bye!
TSL: Sure....
Or...
Scoots: Hey, TSL. I am just signed a contract with Puma. Just wanted to tell you before he told you, because its polite.
TSL: Well thanks. You know he was under contract with us?
Scoots: Yeah, I was hoping you would release him. We offered him more money and all the Mars Bars he could eat. I'm homing Mars will be his new sponsor.
TSL: Yeah, well I'll think about that after we speak with our lawyers.
Scoot: Oh come on, your taking this the wrong way. Mars Bars are really good.
Let us exit this crazy world where you call people to talk about signing their players to your team.
If someone offers me a better job and I have to leave in a week, I will. My job keeps me by treating me well and paying what I am worth. If TSL wants to keep their players, pay them well and treat them well. From what I can tell, EG treats is playesrs well and provides them with the support they need. I don't know about TSL, but Puma must have throught differently.
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On July 22 2011 02:35 TheRPGAddict wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 02:31 Mr Showtime wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
"There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" .....a solid contract..... Yes, EG probably should have consulted the managers, so they could work out EG's offer. Ultimately it's Puma's decision to make, but by the time TSL was involved, he had pretty much commited to EG's offer. "Foul" play by EG I suppose, but TSL didn't exactly do the best job as managers. I'm just happy to see him go to my favorite progaming team If they would have informed TSL about their interest in Puma, Mr. Lee could have very well have done something to keep Puma on TSL in terms of a deal. I think it EG should have contacted the management first... But that is my opinion and I know no one gives a shit about it. But this is a discussion.
That's the point. Mr. Lee is mad because he was not given the opportunity to make another offer to Puma before he committed to leaving for EG. Puma likely would have left anyway, but there wasn't a chance to convince him to stay.
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On July 21 2011 23:20 Dante08 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:13 Krehlmar wrote:
It's a buissness world I guess but this is exactly like MC cheesing White-Ra in a the finals...
I don't give two shits that it's playing to win, sure, he won he got his price, but I sure as hell won't be a fan of the style or MC after that.
Same as with this kind of lowering my expectations of EG because if they'd be sure of their own company and clan they wouldn't had gone so subvert... just contact Puma AND TSL Administration.
Hopefully TSL or the likes can make better contracts in the future.
And yeah you can consider players talents and themselves as products at times, they're still people but contracts in NBA, NFL, etc. work like this. It's something they sign themselves.
Lastly... I hope EG gets into the GSTL now and kick some ass in a while! Why are you even comparing MC White Ra they are two different things. At least make an NBA or NFL analogy or whatever lol. But I do agree EG should have contacted TSL as well. If Puma wanted to leave and his contracted expired he's free to go anyway. Not sure why you would keep it under the radar. It sort of becomes poaching of players.
They fought in the finals of Dreamhack Invitational, epic games, MC cheesed White-Ra in the last game and it was a abhorrent. "or whatever lol".
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On July 22 2011 02:16 shell wrote:
In europe this is common bussiness in the football scene!
Many times teams aproach players or get his agent to talk to him!
Players sometimes force their way out of contracts by:
a) telling they wont perform
b) not participating in practice sessions
c) comming out in public saying they want to leave or have a bad relation with the coach etc..
In this case it seems like he doesn't have a contract and a salary..
YES IT'S NORMAL! YES IT HAPPENS! and no one should be angry at EG!
What EG did is dishonorable, and yes they did steal a player.
It may be legally done, but it definitely isn't done honorably.
Now, it is TSL's fault for not having contract made with their players.
They have no one to blame but to kick themselves for having an incidence like this happen.
This should be a lesson for all pro teams to sign contracts with their players to make sure all trade/scouting is done fairly.
Now I'm sure this decision is end up being very detrimental for Puma.
He was developing to be a solid player, but now that he is without a proper infrastructure and players to practice with (now that he's in EG, whether he does/does not practice with them) we all know he's going to become a B class player. (he may still be somewhat successful in the foreign scene, but he's settling for something less)
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This gets me super excited, so happy to see Koreans going to foreign teams. Spreading around the talent and all.
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On July 22 2011 02:46 Kojaimea wrote:
There is a reason why many sports require you to go through the management of the team before you approach the player. It avoids cases like this.
....You go through players agents, you don't just walk up to the management and ask for permission to court their best player.
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United States12607 Posts
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On July 22 2011 02:43 Phantom_Sky wrote:
I dont really get all the hate, and saying that this is bad for eSports
isn't it the kind of stuff we dream that would make eSports happen? In real-life high-stake game like Football (soccer for you americans), even top-tier team like Manchester United/ Barcelona would try to steal players without the agreement/ approval of the players's manager / team, it's dirty but it's business, professionals play to win and play to win money
the money is what separates "professional" from casual / amateur, if you want those honor shit, that's fine, but dont expect the game to grow to a level that people would spend their life perfecting it, without big money/ pay check involve, it would remain a toy of average 12-year old instead of something the world would take serious
and if this game is getting serious (so big money for contracts and tournament winners) , then a proper contract would prevent users from leaving the team pre-maturely
I love people say its dirty but thats normal so its ok. Do we really want another sport surrounded by shaddy shit? I can guarantee that in other sports other teams try to "steal" players from toehr teams but not before being in talks with the other manager. Because players have agents and agents try to get as much money as possible...it would never happen where a player is offered a contract from another team and when their old contract expires they just jump ship.
The agent will either go up to the manager whe nthe new contract is up and say look we got a new contract do better or we leave. Or he'll go up to the manager in the middle of the contact the player is currently under so getting a counter offer will be more likely because the manager will have more time to free up money.
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On July 21 2011 23:23 Lonyo wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tapping_up(Sorry it's a wikipedia link, but I think some people should read it). What went on here, if it is as claimed (EG approached Puma directly), would result in fines and bans of various sorts in other sports. If you think it's acceptable, then what do you think of rules against such actions in other (professional) sports?
Great post, worth quoting.
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This was from the EG site from one of the users
Altho things on tliquid are getting out of hand, the majority of ppl don't understand how business works in the real life not the "flower power double rainbow pink world".
I'd just really love to see EG's statement. I mean, this is pretty big news and it would clear up so much ambiguity with the case.
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EPT
