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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
On July 22 2011 00:59 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:21 f0ol wrote:China, but relevant. Worth the read in my opinion. 7-deadly-perceptions-about-doing-business-with-chinaPerception #1: Assuming Chinese Do Business the Same Way Americans Do
Though both parties deal in US dollars, Americans and Chinese have vastly different business cultures. While America is transaction-oriented, China is relationship-oriented. There’s a chasm between these two styles of interaction. Basically Asian countries have a different understanding contracts and obligations. QTF. I'm amazed that people telling TSL is in the wrong here. I know TSL is falling apart, and it's better for players to leave them, but in this particular case, TSL did nothing wrong. Unlike the popular western belief, in a lot of countries, you can't just write something on a piece of paper, sign your name and call it a contract/agreement. I can't just go to a random convenient store, write my phone number and signature on the receipt and tell them if I don't pay they can sue me. In Asia, most people don't want anything to do with the government because it takes awful bureaucracy system. That's why people avoid and afraid to go in any form of contract. I know a lot of companies (small companies of course) that don't even have contract with their employees. It's not unusual to see relationship-oriented business, especially in this kind of industry where each team doesn't have solid sponsorship like EG yet. So yes, it's a moral code of conduct that you have to contact the managers/coaches before approaching the players, and EG broke that code. Even though EG is legally right, they make a bad name of themselves and the Koreans are beginning to aware, and I doubt they can expand their business in Korea.
this is Korea not China, nice racist panasianism you got there
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 22 2011 01:00 Walls wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:57 JinDesu wrote:On July 22 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit. And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible... If a player is unhappy with his situation and wants to join another team, then I don't see what's stopping them from leaving the team to do so. Like Fruitdealer and Tester. And Rain. However, when you introduce what EG did, then you can end up killing a team. This is similar in a way to the situation in the middle east with college students, the foreign colleges just buy out all the good students, BUT here is the big difference, the foreign colleges have better professors teaching their student and they have better labs and everything, this is obscene!
Obscene? I think you need to take a step back and assess your priorities. This is one player changing teams for unknown reasons in unknown circumstances (until there is an official statement).
EDIT: My bad.
User was warned for this post
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Does EG have a practice house?
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[QUOTE]On July 22 2011 00:49 redwingxviii wrote:
[QUOTE]On July 22 2011 00:44 Walls wrote:
Poll: How do you feel about this EG / Puma thing?It's cool! (102) 55% It's uncool! (84) 45% 186 total votes Your vote: How do you feel about this EG / Puma thing? (Vote): It's cool!
(Vote): It's uncool!
[/QUOTE]
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On July 22 2011 00:56 ptbl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:54 Proko wrote:On July 22 2011 00:53 ptbl wrote:
Puma has become a pariah overnight in the Korean starcraft 2 community. He won't find to many practice partners anymore. Also, EG has pretty much ruined their reputation in Korea. I doubt they will be able to have any type of partnership in the future or dealins in Korea. You sure? I get the sense you are saying a lot more than you know. Playxp and the twitters of many the korean pros are pretty negative towards EG and Puma. You can access playxp here http://www.playxp.com/
It's a vocal minority and I'm sure Puma will have plenty of people to play with. You think his relationship with players like MC are going to go to shit because of this move? You are sorely mistaken. MC has many practice partners despite his BM-ish moves and arrogance. It's good for Puma and the game.
Also I scoff and laugh at those who talk about business morals as if they knew anything about ethics in business. People are talking about business practices like it's chivalry. HaHA
Just like any business deal: There are losers and winners. There are people are mad and people who are happy.
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This is similar in a way to the situation in the middle east with college students, the foreign colleges just buy out all the good students,
BUT here is the big difference, the foreign colleges have better professors teaching their student and they have better labs and everything,
this is obscene! You dont go ahead and buy the better player when your team isnt better than the team the other player os already on...
Its not like that in soccer its not like that in real world.
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On July 22 2011 01:01 Maliris wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:59 canikizu wrote:On July 22 2011 00:21 f0ol wrote:China, but relevant. Worth the read in my opinion. 7-deadly-perceptions-about-doing-business-with-chinaPerception #1: Assuming Chinese Do Business the Same Way Americans Do
Though both parties deal in US dollars, Americans and Chinese have vastly different business cultures. While America is transaction-oriented, China is relationship-oriented. There’s a chasm between these two styles of interaction. Basically Asian countries have a different understanding contracts and obligations. QTF. I'm amazed that people telling TSL is in the wrong here. I know TSL is falling apart, and it's better for players to leave them, but in this particular case, TSL did nothing wrong. Unlike the popular western belief, in a lot of countries, you can't just write something on a piece of paper, sign your name and call it a contract/agreement. I can't just go to a random convenient store, write my phone number and signature on the receipt and tell them if I don't pay they can sue me. In Asia, most people don't want anything to do with the government because it takes awful bureaucracy system. That's why people avoid and afraid to go in any form of contract. I know a lot of companies (small companies of course) that don't even have contract with their employees. It's not unusual to see relationship-oriented business, especially in this kind of industry where each team doesn't have solid sponsorship like EG yet. So yes, it's a moral code of conduct that you have to contact the managers/coaches before approaching the players, and EG broke that code. Even though EG is legally right, they make a bad name of themselves and the Koreans are beginning to aware, and I doubt they can expand their business in Korea. this is Korea not China, nice racist panasianism you got there
LOL? I assure you, the honor system is not that different between China, Japan, and Korea.
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Good luck to the super Terran!
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On July 22 2011 00:53 Shifft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:51 namedplayer wrote:
Puma will never get KOREAN practice partners because of this. He should just move to america. Oh please, Puma is an amazing player and I'm sure a ton of Koreans will be perfectly happy to practice with him.
nah. there are so many great terrans as strong as Puma in korea. they don't bother to practice with ungrateful traitor like Puma it's cultural thing. Puma's skill will go down soon or later.
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On July 22 2011 01:03 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:00 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 00:57 JinDesu wrote:On July 22 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit. And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible... If a player is unhappy with his situation and wants to join another team, then I don't see what's stopping them from leaving the team to do so. Like Fruitdealer and Tester. And Rain. However, when you introduce what EG did, then you can end up killing a team. This is similar in a way to the situation in the middle east with college students, the foreign colleges just buy out all the good students, BUT here is the big difference, the foreign colleges have better professors teaching their student and they have better labs and everything, this is obscene! Obscene? I think you need to take a step back and assess your priorities. This is one player changing teams for unknown reasons in unknown circumstances (until there is an official statement). I think your signature helps prove the fact that you're a forum white knight, but discussing morality on the TL boards is a lose/lose situation for everyone.
My thoughts exactly.
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On July 22 2011 00:59 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:21 f0ol wrote:China, but relevant. Worth the read in my opinion. 7-deadly-perceptions-about-doing-business-with-chinaPerception #1: Assuming Chinese Do Business the Same Way Americans Do
Though both parties deal in US dollars, Americans and Chinese have vastly different business cultures. While America is transaction-oriented, China is relationship-oriented. There’s a chasm between these two styles of interaction. Basically Asian countries have a different understanding contracts and obligations. QTF. I'm amazed that people telling TSL is in the wrong here. I know TSL is falling apart, and it's better for players to leave them, but in this particular case, TSL did nothing wrong. Unlike the popular western belief, in a lot of countries, you can't just write something on a piece of paper, sign your name and call it a contract/agreement. I can't just go to a random convenient store, write my phone number and signature on the receipt and tell them if I don't pay they can sue me. In Asia, most people don't want anything to do with the government because it takes awful bureaucracy system. That's why people avoid and afraid to go in any form of contract. I know a lot of companies (small companies of course) that don't even have contract with their employees. It's not unusual to see relationship-oriented business, especially in this kind of industry where each team doesn't have solid sponsorship like EG yet. So yes, it's a moral code of conduct that you have to contact the managers/coaches before approaching the players, and EG broke that code. Even though EG is legally right, they make a bad name of themselves and the Koreans are beginning to aware, and I doubt they can expand their business in Korea.
TLDR: EG did nothing wrong. Everyone else is being too sensitive. Lol, way to prove your point bro. It's much better for the PLAYER to go to a better team than a dying team. Teams do not make the game, it's the players.
TSL and Puma did not trust each other enough to be in a contract. So you're upset that he left? Wth
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On July 22 2011 00:53 JWD wrote:This kind of competition between teams can only be good for the players. Power to PuMa for doing what he feels is best for himself. Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:53 IceSlipper wrote:On July 22 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit. And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible... And be flip flopping wherever and whenever they please, so nobody will want to start up a team? Oh so wonderful... As countless people in this thread have pointed out, if a team is worried about losing its players to a competitor it can bargain for a clause in a player's contract that will punish the player for terminating the contract early.
Best post I've seen. People that cannot compete do not like competition. We see this is poltical/economic discussion all the time. A good example is the AMD suits against Intel.
There is a way of preventing players from leaving teams, and that is stipulations in the contracts. But no player would sign a contract like this because it is not in their best interest to sign something which says you cannot take a better offer if you have the opportunity.
I do not see a problem legally or ethically. If Korean culture has an issue with this sort of thing, then that's a problem for Koreans to deal with. But it is not objectively unethical business deal. It's a typical case of mutually beneficial trade between 2 consenting parties. This is a good thing that not all cultures have accepted.
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I would agree with Milkis. Really no respect at all. I feel this is entirely about ethnics and values. Also, this isn't surprising for me that so many people in the west simply don't get what's so wrong about this. Some of you are just brought up differently and have a different set of values.
Some of you are saying it like there's absolutely nothing wrong with how it's done simply because there's no rule that disallows this from happening. I was going to give an example. But, I'm pretty sure someone will just intentionally look at the example from an extreme point of view just to say it's invalid.
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On July 22 2011 01:04 namedplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:53 Shifft wrote:On July 22 2011 00:51 namedplayer wrote:
Puma will never get KOREAN practice partners because of this. He should just move to america. Oh please, Puma is an amazing player and I'm sure a ton of Koreans will be perfectly happy to practice with him. nah. there are so many great terrans as strong as Puma in korea. they don't bother to practice with ungrateful traitor like Puma it's cultural thing. Puma's skill will go down soon or later.
wow, "ungrateful traitor" ???
That seems awfully hateful.
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On July 22 2011 01:04 outty wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 01:03 ZasZ. wrote:On July 22 2011 01:00 Walls wrote:On July 22 2011 00:57 JinDesu wrote:On July 22 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit. And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible... If a player is unhappy with his situation and wants to join another team, then I don't see what's stopping them from leaving the team to do so. Like Fruitdealer and Tester. And Rain. However, when you introduce what EG did, then you can end up killing a team. This is similar in a way to the situation in the middle east with college students, the foreign colleges just buy out all the good students, BUT here is the big difference, the foreign colleges have better professors teaching their student and they have better labs and everything, this is obscene! Obscene? I think you need to take a step back and assess your priorities. This is one player changing teams for unknown reasons in unknown circumstances (until there is an official statement). I think your signature helps prove the fact that you're a forum white knight, but discussing morality on the TL boards is a lose/lose situation for everyone. My thoughts exactly.
Unknown reasons?
Could the reason be anything other than money, when every person with a little bit on knowledge of the sc2 community know coach lee and how nice he is?
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On July 22 2011 01:04 Walls wrote:
This is similar in a way to the situation in the middle east with college students, the foreign colleges just buy out all the good students,
BUT here is the big difference, the foreign colleges have better professors teaching their student and they have better labs and everything,
this is obscene! You dont go ahead and buy the better player when your team isnt better than the team the other player os already on...
Its not like that in soccer its not like that in real world.
It is exactly like that in the corporate world. What do you think headhunters are for?
No need to repost, btw. We saw what you said the first time.
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I like this unexpected turn of events. TSL seemed to be falling on the wayside, and if anything it will get him involved in more tournaments.
The guy saw an opportunity to improve his livelihood and took it. Good for him. Let's hope he doesn't get weighed down by people trying to guilt trip him using inane quips about loyalty. He's like the Lebron James of StarCraft; there's always going to be butthurt, jealous Clevelanders.
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Oh WOW, this is pretty crazy, sucks for TSL, but grats to EG. Nice pick up.
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On July 22 2011 01:05 jiveturkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:53 JWD wrote:This kind of competition between teams can only be good for the players. Power to PuMa for doing what he feels is best for himself. On July 22 2011 00:53 IceSlipper wrote:On July 22 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit. And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible... And be flip flopping wherever and whenever they please, so nobody will want to start up a team? Oh so wonderful... As countless people in this thread have pointed out, if a team is worried about losing its players to a competitor it can bargain for a clause in a player's contract that will punish the player for terminating the contract early. Best post I've seen. People that cannot compete do not like competition. We see this is poltical/economic discussion all the time. A good example is the AMD suits against Intel. There is a way of preventing players from leaving teams, and that is stipulations in the contracts. But no player would sign a contract like this because it is not in their best interest to sign something which says you cannot take a better offer if you have the opportunity. I do not see a problem legally or ethically. If Korean culture has an issue with this sort of thing, then that's a problem for Koreans to deal with. But it is not objectively unethical business deal. It's a typical case of mutually beneficial trade between 2 consenting parties. This is a good thing that not all cultures have accepted.
lol yes - it's a problem for Koreans to deal with. Of course, when they deal with it by alienating foreign teams, then we'll complain again.
My way is good enough for everyone else.
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EPT
