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On July 22 2011 00:44 Walls wrote:
directed towards the managers of EG:
This is disgusting, E-sports is too young to become this corrupted and/or monopolized. I am in support of laws against this type of act and am willing to vote in polls and do everything I can to stop teams with a lower skill level from buying everything out instead of trying to get better on their own.
this will hurt us in the long run.
I am also willing to vote in polls.
Poll: How do you feel about this EG / Puma thing?It's cool! (102) 55% It's uncool! (84) 45% 186 total votes Your vote: How do you feel about this EG / Puma thing? (Vote): It's cool!
(Vote): It's uncool!
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On July 22 2011 00:44 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:36 Ryalnos wrote:On July 22 2011 00:31 00Visor wrote:
I don't get how you can still be arguing.
The TSL coach is mad, Milkis is mad, the Korean fans are mad.
It doesnt matter if WE think it is right or wrong. We have to respect Korean ethics/rules as well. And from their view it was obviously the wrong way to do this deal. Is Milkis mad? There's no indication of it in this thread. His only post is the neutral OP. Milkis twitter Wooju Lee OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee FYI: It's a sign of RESPECT more than anything to talk to the team before contacting the player. Wooju Lee OrangeMilkis Wooju Lee Korean Netizens also very disappointed in Puma. Not surprised. If you're surprised then you need to understand our culture a bit better http://twitter.com/#!/OrangeMilkis
Not exactly a Korea-only thing, other sports in other countries share a similar culture with respect to talking to management before approaching players.
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So, has it been determined whether Puma was under contract with TSL or not? If we was not under contract, then it's TSLs own fault for losing him. If he was under contract, then it's a bit stickier an issue. One that would make me question Puma's ethics and not EG.
This is not like other pro sports where there are player agents, unions, associations, rules for how and when players and teams can interact.
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On July 22 2011 00:46 alexey350 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:44 Walls wrote:
directed towards the managers of EG:
This is disgusting, E-sports is too young to become this corrupted and/or monopolized, I am in support of laws against this type of act and am willing to vote in polls and do everything I can to stop teams that are in a lower skill level to be able to buy everything out instead of trying to get better.
this will hurt us in the long run. No, it won't. This is good for the SC scene over all.
How is having teams go behind each others backs to make deals a good thing for any community? Yes, Puma may come out ahead on this, but it doesn't sit right. Its like offering someone who is poor to do something horrible just for a bit a scrap. Without any more details available, it def seems EG took advantage of a situation they should have respected.
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Puma will never get KOREAN practice partners because of this. He should just move to america.
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Good news I guess. Even though some parts of the korean culture seem sick I can understand why they'd be mad over EG contacting the player before the team. But on the other hand I don't know what kind of a contract he had with TSL.
Just hope this doesn't mean anything to Puma's practice schedule and practice partners.
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Didn't something like this happen before with EG or another team in the CS scene?
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The fact that they didnt approach the team first is a bit disconcerting, it has nothing to do with korean culture and or foreign culture, even player oppurtunity and contracts or such..
The precedent it sets is the problem, player poaching is the reason contracts exist in the first place. For any kind of sport to maintain stability and a standard you kinda need to respect professional ethics..
I dont see how examples in other professions are relevent either .. and if you compare it to sports, players dont hop around like whack a moles every few months do they in mainstream sports ?
And even if they do change teams while they may agree personal terms or just mention to the player that theyre interested nothing gets serious unless the team is approached first,
players dont go to their teams in a professional environmentt and say "yeah leaving see ya". Atleast they shouldnt, not in the current state of the game
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On July 22 2011 00:44 Walls wrote:
directed towards the managers of EG:
This is disgusting, E-sports is too young to become this corrupted and/or monopolized. I am in support of laws against this type of act and am willing to vote in polls and do everything I can to stop teams with a lower skill level from buying everything out instead of trying to get better on their own.
this will hurt us in the long run.
What on earth are you talking about? Last I check, competitive sc2 is pre-dominantly 1v1. We should be concerned about the players' well-being rather than the corporations/companies supporting them. I say, if PuMa feels that EG values his skills more than TSL and offers better compensation than why not? I can't care less what foreign team a player is on, I only care about their individual performance. Hell I used to think jinro/ret/idra/morrow/white-ra all played on the same team cause they were always together in the tournament brackets.
Only time team matters is in the GSTL, but even then, one player can carry a team (eg. MVPDongRaeGu).
It's these kind of things that makes players want to get better. So that they can be compensated and supported
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On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit.
And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible...
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On July 22 2011 00:34 Grimsong wrote:
As I read this thread more and more, I'm genuinely surprised at how people are more concerned with the TEAMS and not the individual PLAYERS.
Do you guys WANT a system where teams trade, sell, cut, players at their own discretion? Where the teams dictate what the players are able to do, what they can make, where they can play?
Or do you want guys to have the opporunity to play how they want? With who they want? Where they want? You want guys shackled to contracts they signed that they didn't realize, just signed because it was the best deal possible for a 20 year old video game player? How's that for taking advantage of a culture where 19 year olds still feel micromanaged. To guarantee a lifestyle for oneself? Acting as if we'd be more concerned with the "team" than ourselves if we were in that position. This is far beyond just looking at this sole incident. We here, as a community, should be more concerned with protecting "our own" so to speak. The players.
You don't want nasty contract situations to go to court, it costs too much time and money. Why do you think the, I'll go ahead and say it, ACTUAL sports leagues don't settle contracts in court? Because...
A) They have a governing body (The owners and such, the league itself)
B) The players belong to a UNION, which protects their rights, and adds to the governing body.
C) The money, and time, involved simply isn't worth it.
Given the length of at least some contracts in e-sports, you don't have to spend forever waiting for a player to become available anyway.
The Mondragon thread mentions his 6 month contract was up with MYM, and I am sure there have been other threads where similar contract lengths have been mentioned.
We aren't talking long contracts, or slavery. Yes, the SC2 world moves faster than "normal" sports, but then the contracts aren't as long either.
And if we want to bring Korean and non-Korea Starcraft together, that requires money, which usually comes from sponsors, and is given to teams, who support players. You therefore need respect between teams and for other teams.
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On July 22 2011 00:51 namedplayer wrote:
Puma will never get KOREAN practice partners because of this. He should just move to america.
Oh please, Puma is an amazing player and I'm sure a ton of Koreans will be perfectly happy to practice with him.
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The fact that TSL let Puma go even though they wanted him to stay shows that he was not bound by any contract. What's the big deal? TSL didn't secure Puma and now they're whining on twitter while enraging a bunch of illogical nerds. Lol, TSL is stupid.
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On July 22 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit. And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible...
And be flip flopping wherever and whenever they please, so nobody will want to start up a team? Oh so wonderful...
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United States12607 Posts
This kind of competition between teams can only be good for the players. Power to PuMa for doing what he feels is best for himself.
On July 22 2011 00:53 IceSlipper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:52 Dariusz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:48 Fulgrim wrote:
We can't support this poaching of a player like this, otherwise it'll become an acceptable and common habit. And players will play where they want to play and make more money? Oh so terrible... And be flip flopping wherever and whenever they please, so nobody will want to start up a team? Oh so wonderful...
As countless people in this thread have pointed out, if a team is worried about losing its players to a competitor it can bargain for a clause in a player's contract that will punish the player for terminating the contract early.
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Puma has become a pariah overnight in the Korean starcraft 2 community. I doubt the top pros Korean pros with practice with Puma anymore. Also, EG has pretty much ruined their reputation in Korea. I doubt they will be able to have any type of partnership in the future or dealings in Korea.
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On July 22 2011 00:53 ptbl wrote:
Puma has become a pariah overnight in the Korean starcraft 2 community. He won't find to many practice partners anymore. Also, EG has pretty much ruined their reputation in Korea. I doubt they will be able to have any type of partnership in the future or dealins in Korea.
You sure? I get the sense you are saying a lot more than you know.
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On July 22 2011 00:50 VillageBC wrote:
So, has it been determined whether Puma was under contract with TSL or not? If we was not under contract, then it's TSLs own fault for losing him. If he was under contract, then it's a bit stickier an issue. One that would make me question Puma's ethics and not EG.
This is not like other pro sports where there are player agents, unions, associations, rules for how and when players and teams can interact.
But does lacking these rules, associations, etc just allow us to consider it a free-for-all grab-who-you-can-if-you-have-the-money kind of thing? I'm PRETTY sure the koreans don't consider it that way, even if they don't have those rules in place at this time.
And maybe this event will be the primer for setting those rules then?
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Another reason why this is very bad and has no side of morality to it.
Think of the TSL coach as someone who works really hard and with everything he has in his power to improve a player on his team, he comes up with tactics and coaching strategies, he comes up with good practice partners for his team... while team EG is doing much less to improve, but then all of sudden team EG goes and buys out puma without even talking to the coach.
think about it for a second.
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Every time I see the current headlines order:
Jul 21 - Puma leaves TSL for EG
Jul 20 - STX Puts up their entire player roster for trade
I can't help but think
"TSL has their entire player roster for trade"
even though it's not true (it just seems to be ending up that way)
Seriously though, this can't be compared with a team sport like hockey, basketball, or baseball. To be a fair analogy, it's more like a boxer switching gyms or a swimmer switching teams. While the events may or may not involve the whole team, each match only has 1 player. It's not as though a 2v2 team has been split up.
From Puma's perspective, it seems the obvious choice to join EG. He has been unable to get into the GSL code A probably due to bad luck (with the single elimination method of the qualifiers, skill isn't enough to get in). Without this, there are few events in Korea that he can compete it, and TSL doesn't have the ability to send him to the international tournaments. He has shown that, if sent, he can succeed in these tournaments, so why would he not go for it? According to Artosis, he is already one of the most desired practice partners; so, even if he stays in Korea, I don't see him being unable to find any.
Given that he doesn't need his team for practice, and TSL is unable to send him to events he can excel in, it would be a waste for him to stay with TSL.
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EPT
