|
As I read this thread more and more, I'm genuinely surprised at how people are more concerned with the TEAMS and not the individual PLAYERS.
Do you guys WANT a system where teams trade, sell, cut, players at their own discretion? Where the teams dictate what the players are able to do, what they can make, where they can play?
Or do you want guys to have the opporunity to play how they want? With who they want? Where they want? You want guys shackled to contracts they signed that they didn't realize, just signed because it was the best deal possible for a 20 year old video game player? How's that for taking advantage of a culture where 19 year olds still feel micromanaged. To guarantee a lifestyle for oneself? Acting as if we'd be more concerned with the "team" than ourselves if we were in that position. This is far beyond just looking at this sole incident. We here, as a community, should be more concerned with protecting "our own" so to speak. The players.
You don't want nasty contract situations to go to court, it costs too much time and money. Why do you think the, I'll go ahead and say it, ACTUAL sports leagues don't settle contracts in court? Because...
A) They have a governing body (The owners and such, the league itself)
B) The players belong to a UNION, which protects their rights, and adds to the governing body.
C) The money, and time, involved simply isn't worth it.
|
On July 22 2011 00:27 TedJustice wrote:
Who's he going to practice with if he's staying in Korea?
anyone, i always read players interviews i notice their practice partner is not on their team.like byun practice with MMA,MKP,sc,taeja,ryung to beat bomber in Ro8
|
On July 22 2011 00:29 jiveturkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:12 Copenap wrote:On July 22 2011 00:05 jiveturkey wrote:On July 21 2011 23:23 Copenap wrote:On July 21 2011 23:05 jiveturkey wrote:On July 21 2011 23:00 Copenap wrote:On July 21 2011 22:48 meadbert wrote:
So in the real world when someone wants to hire me they call me, not my current manager. Why should it be different in esports? If Puma had some contractual obligation then he would need to negotiate out of the contract. What is it with management acting as if they own their employees? That is not how it operates in America at all. 1. TSL made it possible for Puma to become this good and basicly paid for his "qualification". Now that finally that pays dividends EG comes a picks him up instead putting the money in developing own talents. 2. What's even worse imo (if that is all true, I'm still waiting for an official statement), you don't approach a 19yr old boy who's probably abroad for the first time and make him an offer a kid can't really comprehend. Wait for him to return home to korea and contact him and his parents while also informing TSL of this move, that would have been the better way. We still don't know everything but the op states that they contacted him while the tournament wasn't even finished and that's not responsible at all imo, even if I certainly hope he took this offer home and discussed it throroughly with his parents. 1. If a team wants to stipulate that they have the exclusive rights to a player's 'talent' if they are the people that cultivated that talent, then they need to put that in a contract. Plain and simple. 2. Really? At 19 people are not able to comprehend offers? I know that I was married, had a full time job, had an apartment, was paying insurance, healthcare bills, and picking a major in schhool that determines my life direction at the age of 19. That's plenty old, and definitely old enough for the parents to be left out of it. That is, unless there is some strange cultural thing I'm missing where Koreans feel that 19 is still a kid. If that's the case, that's sad. 1. It's not about whether it's legal, it's about whether it's ethical. 2. I don't agree at all. 19yr olds are kids and especially vulnerable in a foreign environment. If you think otherwhise, I think we have to agree to disagree. Reminds me of Benjamin Button... 1. And I do not believe there is anything unethical about it either. As I said, EG as a business has an interest in Puma, not TSL. It is Puma's responsibility to decide whether to switch or not. If he decides to switch, it is his responsibility to figure things out with the team he is on. 2. I don't know where this idea comes from of 19 year-old not being able to handle decision making. In most places, you are able to drive, smoke, drink, join the military, go to college to determine your life direction, etc.. at or before the age of 19. 19 is not a kid, it is an adult age. Maybe there is some cultural divide where some different ages tend to be nurtured too much and hence have a lower maturity level. Maybe cultures have created those types of environments which have different maturity expectations, I don't know. But I know that a 19 year-old brain is fully capable of making a decision such as this. 1. You can do a lot of stuff from a business point of view that is not ethical at all. 2. You are considered an adult by law, that again doesn't make you anything close. You can make these decisions and eventually have to but you shouldn't do that on your own as you don't know shit about life at the age of 19. But I guess a 19yr old never regreted getting married early, picking the wrong direction in his professional life or whatever... Yeah right. When you get older you will eventually realise that you didn't have a clue back then. Money can do weird things if you lack the experience of life. 1. I am aware of that, but I don not believe that it is unethical. I said it is nto EG's responsibility to talk to a team that they have no interest in. It is Puma's moral obligation to do so. 2. I didn't say that it is the law which makes you a capable adult. Fortunately, most law systems DO recognize that people 18 years of age are capable to do things like join the military. I didn't say people don't make mistakes. People in their 20s, 30s, 40s, etc always make mistakes they regret. That does not imply that they are not capable of making right decisions at those points in their lives though.
I guess we just won't come to an agreement than and that's fine. One last word though, of course even more experienced people make mistakes, but that just means you actually never stop learning especially not with 19 and I just believe this could have been handled better, given the information we have so far.
|
On July 22 2011 00:31 00Visor wrote:
I don't get how you can still be arguing.
The TSL coach is mad, Milkis is mad, the Korean fans are mad.
It doesnt matter if WE think it is right or wrong. We have to respect Korean ethics/rules as well. And from their view it was obviously the wrong way to do this deal.
And I'm sure people throwing around wild theories, analogies, and generalizations on the TL-forums is going to quell their anger...why are people still arguing. What happened has already happened. It's time to move on and EG hasn't even posted anything yet and ya'll are throwing mud at each other...
|
On July 22 2011 00:31 00Visor wrote:
I don't get how you can still be arguing.
The TSL coach is mad, Milkis is mad, the Korean fans are mad.
It doesnt matter if WE think it is right or wrong. We have to respect Korean ethics/rules as well. And from their view it was obviously the wrong way to do this deal.
Why do we need to respect their rules and ethics if they aren't going to respect ours? Why doesn't it matter what WE (as foreigners) think about the actions of a foreign company?
Sorry, but with how big SC2 is getting in the foreign scene, the repercussions of not bowing down to every aspect of Korean culture aren't going to ruin us
|
It's great to see Korean players getting along well with foreigner teams but EG managers/coaches should've at least consulted the TSL managers/coaches.
Going out on a whim here but is Tasteless still with EG? cos as their manager, I can't see Tasteless going ahead with this decision to approach Puma without notifying TSL.
I hope Tasteless isn't responsible for this or still with EG. Just need some clarification.
Thanks
|
On July 22 2011 00:25 nihlon wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't there been pretty recent (and old) cases where hockey players have sign in the nhl while under contract? Fedorov or something a long time ago and also a newer one just some years ago. The KHL could basically do nothing to prevent the players from playing in the nhl since there wasn't any agreement between the leagues about the trade rules. In the same way here I doubt that TSL could do nothing legally to prevent him from competing for EG even if he had a contract signed.
^^As a response to the people saying a no-trade clause would help.
this could possibly be the case. If so, it doesn't exactly cast EG in a good light.
Still haven't heard any clear details about Puma and his contract (or lack of one) under TSL.
I wish EG/TSL would shed some more light on the situation.
Get on it SC2 Sleuth Reporters!
|
On July 22 2011 00:31 00Visor wrote:
I don't get how you can still be arguing.
The TSL coach is mad, Milkis is mad, the Korean fans are mad.
It doesnt matter if WE think it is right or wrong. We have to respect Korean ethics/rules as well. And from their view it was obviously the wrong way to do this deal.
Is Milkis mad? There's no indication of it in this thread. His only post is the neutral OP.
|
On July 22 2011 00:19 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:13 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On July 21 2011 23:44 venge1155 wrote:
I can not wait until some of you get real jobs, with real contracts and try to leave with a head hunter. Tell me how that works out for you. I'm guessing you don't know what you're talking about. Employment in the US (where your profile indicates you're posting from) is generally at-will. You can walk away with a head hunter, and it will work out for you just fine. Your contract might specify a notification period before you can leave, but a head hunter doesn't need to talk to your boss before offering you a job. Try getting hired, and trained by one company, and then leaving in a month for another company. See how that does for your career. You have no idea what professional ethics are for jobs in the U.S. Most jobs are not like McDonalds and companies invest millions of dollars to train new employees. Financial analysts are a perfect example of this. You are entrusted with a lot of company secrets and if you leave for a competing company for higher salary (aka poaching), it is HUGELY looked down upon.
Describe for me, please, the negative consequences that would accompany the decision to leave a company after a month for more pay. You think future employers are going to hire private investigators to research your past? You just don't put the first job on your resume, and you're good to go. Unless you're famous, or you're working in a very small niche industry where everyone knows everyone else, you're not ever going to encounter a problem finding work because of this.
|
On July 22 2011 00:35 iGX wrote:
It's great to see Korean players getting along well with foreigner teams but EG managers/coaches should've at least consulted the TSL managers/coaches.
Going out on a whim here but is Tasteless still with EG? cos as their manager, I can't see Tasteless going ahead with this decision to approach Puma without notifying TSL.
I hope Tasteless isn't responsible for this or still with EG. Just need some clarification.
Thanks
Tasteless left EG a while ago.
|
NOO
This is sad...
TSL might have to disband <_>
|
That's pretty exciting. Sad how it happened, but at least now EG has a powerhouse Korean, assuming he keeps his momentum.
Wonder how IdrA feels about this? Haha.
|
On July 22 2011 00:35 iGX wrote:
It's great to see Korean players getting along well with foreigner teams but EG managers/coaches should've at least consulted the TSL managers/coaches.
Going out on a whim here but is Tasteless still with EG? cos as their manager, I can't see Tasteless going ahead with this decision to approach Puma without notifying TSL.
I hope Tasteless isn't responsible for this or still with EG. Just need some clarification.
Thanks
Tasteless is no longer EG's manager. Hasn't been for almost 6 months I think? You'll need to look it up for verification on when he stopped managing them.
|
On July 22 2011 00:35 iGX wrote:
It's great to see Korean players getting along well with foreigner teams but EG managers/coaches should've at least consulted the TSL managers/coaches.
Going out on a whim here but is Tasteless still with EG? cos as their manager, I can't see Tasteless going ahead with this decision to approach Puma without notifying TSL.
I hope Tasteless isn't responsible for this or still with EG. Just need some clarification.
Thanks
i think tasteless left EG
|
Well maybe TSL and the Korean teams should consider paying their players better and this wouldn't happen. SC2 is becoming a real sport with some serious money involved and player trading is most likely going to become normal.
It feels like TSL wants a system in place to prevent making better deals with other teams, does he think that every player in other pro sports were "raised" by that team?
|
I don't think this is a good move for Puma in the long run. Look at the kinda prize money he got by playing for TSL. He got that money from being really, really, really fucking good. How did he get so good? His training house, his coach, and his team mates. He won't have a training house, he will have an extremely shitty coach, if EG even has one, and his team mates would never in their life be capable of getting GM on the KR server, except for possibly Idra.
We're all already seeing the gap between Korea and everyone else get bigger and bigger. Sure, we've got Nani, Thorzain, Idra, and a few others, but Idra is not a good substitute for a whole house of people, a Korean coach, and the Korean ladder.
What bothers me the most about this move is that this isn't even in his long term interest. He's going to decline as a player, and his entire reason for being hired is going to slowly fade away. He'll either have to go back to a Korean team, or his career will end a whole lot earlier than it needed to.
Even if he has a good enough clique of practice partners in Korea, he doesn't have a coach any more. And we've already seen what a huge difference a proper Korean coach can have. And I wouldn't be surprised if EG had some plan of theirs to ship him off to the USA to train in their EG house. And we've already discussed the kind of practice environment that is...
|
On July 22 2011 00:35 Bitters wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:31 00Visor wrote:
I don't get how you can still be arguing.
The TSL coach is mad, Milkis is mad, the Korean fans are mad.
It doesnt matter if WE think it is right or wrong. We have to respect Korean ethics/rules as well. And from their view it was obviously the wrong way to do this deal. Why do we need to respect their rules and ethics if they aren't going to respect ours? Why doesn't it matter what WE (as foreigners) think about the actions of a foreign company? Sorry, but with how big SC2 is getting in the foreign scene, the repercussions of not bowing down to every aspect of Korean culture aren't going to ruin us
wait what happened where Korea didn't respect our rules and ethics?
|
WHAT ? wait wait, ,what is going on ?? what ? what ? omg i cant believe this, is it a good thing? why eg? liquid is a better team with a lot of nicer people imo.
|
This is pretty crazy. Imagining something like this happening in Brood War...
|
On July 22 2011 00:35 iGX wrote:
It's great to see Korean players getting along well with foreigner teams but EG managers/coaches should've at least consulted the TSL managers/coaches.
Going out on a whim here but is Tasteless still with EG? cos as their manager, I can't see Tasteless going ahead with this decision to approach Puma without notifying TSL.
I hope Tasteless isn't responsible for this or still with EG. Just need some clarification.
Thanks
myeg.net doesn't list Tasteless on the SC2 page, and while the website is way out of date (and Puma isn't shown on the team roster) I would assume that Tasteless hasn't been filling that role for some time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
