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On July 22 2011 00:14 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:09 denzelz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:03 zinzio wrote:
If the rumors are true on how EG went about acquiring Puma, I will have to find another team to root for. Even under the suggested conditions (that Puma may not have even made a salary) I can't stand to think EG would have went to Puma directly without speaking to his team/managers. Just seems very dirty and completely unprofessional. Shame on you EG. I think not many people on TL follow professional sports so they don't understand how egregious poaching a player from a team is. As has been said many many times, this is nothing like professional sports. There is no all encompassing league with teams and owners and there is no player's union. It is way more akin to normal jobs/companies that operate independently from one another than professional sports where every team/player/owner interact only with one another.
I think the key element of sports that is alike in both professional sports today, and professional e-sports today, is the team element and the amount of time these players spend with each other. In Korea especially, and I think given how much time they spend together, they are very much like family, and to them I can see how it feels like they were walked out on by a family member/brother, rather than say an employee at a corporation.
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As the outrage dies down I hope we can discuss how PuMa will interact with his new team, the comradery he had with TSL can't be there with the language barrier, I really hope to see them work together to improve the quality of their play. Also where will he be staying? Korea? New EG house? Has anything been confirmed?
If he's staying in Korea and just repping them in GSL and going to foreign events I don't think the comments regarding a decline in his skill apply, even if he where to go to an EG house the amount of skill in TSL and EG is fairly similar, in fact I'd say EG is a better team than what was left of TSL when PuMa left.
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On July 22 2011 00:14 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:09 denzelz wrote:On July 22 2011 00:03 zinzio wrote:
If the rumors are true on how EG went about acquiring Puma, I will have to find another team to root for. Even under the suggested conditions (that Puma may not have even made a salary) I can't stand to think EG would have went to Puma directly without speaking to his team/managers. Just seems very dirty and completely unprofessional. Shame on you EG. I think not many people on TL follow professional sports so they don't understand how egregious poaching a player from a team is. As has been said many many times, this is nothing like professional sports. There is no all encompassing league with teams and owners and there is no player's union. It is way more akin to normal jobs/companies that operate independently from one another than professional sports where every team/player/owner interact only with one another.
If it is like professional sports then compare it to the yankees (American Baseball team) practice of offering the best players more money then anyone else can pay and thus signing them over other teams. The fact of who raises the player is irrelevent because they often choose to play for the yankees to get more money.
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I never thought the day would come when Idra would be the 2nd best player on EG.
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On July 22 2011 00:03 zinzio wrote:
If the rumors are true on how EG went about acquiring Puma, I will have to find another team to root for. Even under the suggested conditions (that Puma may not have even made a salary) I can't stand to think EG would have went to Puma directly without speaking to his team/managers. Just seems very dirty and completely unprofessional. Shame on you EG.
Have there been such discussions between teams in the past? I am unfamiliar with BW history.
What would've happened if EG DID approach TSL before talking to Puma anyway
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On July 22 2011 00:13 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2011 23:44 venge1155 wrote:
I can not wait until some of you get real jobs, with real contracts and try to leave with a head hunter. Tell me how that works out for you. I'm guessing you don't know what you're talking about. Employment in the US (where your profile indicates you're posting from) is generally at-will. You can walk away with a head hunter, and it will work out for you just fine. Your contract might specify a notification period before you can leave, but a head hunter doesn't need to talk to your boss before offering you a job.
Try getting hired, and trained by one company, and then leaving in a month for another company. See how that does for your career. You have no idea what professional ethics are for jobs in the U.S. Most jobs are not like McDonalds and companies invest millions of dollars to train new employees. Financial analysts are a perfect example of this. You are entrusted with a lot of company secrets and if you leave for a competing company for higher salary (aka poaching), it is HUGELY looked down upon.
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On July 22 2011 00:14 oogieogie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:11 CeriseCherries wrote:
Remember that TSL did release Puma, so to a certain extent, they agreed. EG is a business and although a little not nice, there is nothing shady about what they did. Shady implies some corruption or some bribe, or some other bad business practice. All they did here is violate some people's sense of ethics.
And you know, EG isn't universally loved. I bet they would not be happy even if EG approached TSL in the first place. However, the benefits are immense for EG- it has been so often in team leagues a carried team. A purchase was coming, and Puma is a good one. Maybe his practice habits will rub off on IdrA. I personally would much rather have Idra stay Idra, and not have him change one bit.
I personally would much rather have IdrA actually beat top Koreans when he plays them. That's one bit I would like to change.
If Puma as a practice partner can effect that, I'm completely fine with IdrA changing.
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why does everyone seem to think pumas skill will go down when he can still be able to practice on korean ladder, and most big foreign tournaments have a lot of other koreans in them also so he will still have to vs them?
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I don't understand how so many people can be saying that EG did nothing wrong here. Yeah what they did may not be technically illegal but tampering in every other imaginable sport it is, and for good reason. It puts the victimized team into a terrible situation. I don't see how a team can talk to another player without going through said player's team if the player is under contract. In almost all cases, a player in any other sport will ask to be released first and then negotiate with other teams. It never happens the other way around. This really blows my mind that there isn't a clause in a player's contract that disallows him or her from negotiating terms with another team while they are still under contract.
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I don't like that.
I don't really know why but i feel it's somewhat wrong.
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I feel this can only be good for players in general. Competion for talent is a good thing. It will make for better and more solid contracts in the future because teams dont want talent jumping ship. Btw EG did nothing wrong. Nobody was "stolen" or "poached". Either puma wasnt contracted at all or they released him from his contract. Further more if his contract with TSL was on point ei:pay/benifits he wouldnt have accepted EGs offer.
Now while i have already stated theres nothing wrong with this I have to say I dont know what puma thinks hes going to get out of this in the long run.The best player are korean because they practice with the best all the time. If puma leaves he wont have access to that. If hes stays same thing basically because he wont be in a gaming house. Unless EG has a deal with some body over there.
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China, but relevant. Worth the read in my opinion.
7-deadly-perceptions-about-doing-business-with-china
Perception #1: Assuming Chinese Do Business the Same Way Americans Do
Though both parties deal in US dollars, Americans and Chinese have vastly different business cultures. While America is transaction-oriented, China is relationship-oriented. There’s a chasm between these two styles of interaction.
Basically Asian countries have a different understanding contracts and obligations.
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Wow how is this 162 pages? If the money and opportunity to play wasn't better in the foreign scene, he wouldn't come. End of story. The Korean scene needs to evolve and offer something besides just the GSL.
+ Show Spoiler +Don't get me wrong I love the GSL.
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On July 22 2011 00:08 Sakarabu wrote:
1) Treatment of SC2 players in Korea is more than fine, as we have seen from countless tours of their prohouses. The situation you are talking about is outdated, from a different game, and has no place in a discussion in 2011.
2) As I stated before just because something isn't regulated doesn't mean you should do it. Are you so braindead that you need someone to say 'no' just to stop you from doing it? What if murder was legal? Fuck it, someone has something I want, it's obviously ok if I kill him for it right?
I find it pretty shocking that people ITT have so little moral fiber that they think it's ok to do everything there isn't a law for. You probably think it's ok to start dating your best friends girlfriend as soon as they break up too, cause you know.. IT'S HER CHOICE RIGHT.
3) Given that we have already deduced that the standard of living in Korea for these players is adequate, i'd strongly debate wether this was "the best thing for esports". taking all the Korean players out of a (clearly better) practice regimen and making them play worse players is obviously going to lower the skill factor of the game and provide less of a viewing experience.
Anyway, as many have already stated, theres no point in branding EG as an evil corporation untill we hear their side of the story. But trying to say that it's ok to just steal players is mind boggling to me.. no wonder the world is going to shit.
1) If it was that great, why would he leave? No one can fault another human being for looking to improve his station in life.
2) This isn't even close to being about morality. Keep in mind that at the end of the day, this is a job. This is not loyalty to your country, God, Mom, Dad, or your wife. This is business. And unless you are contractually obligated to your employer, your employment is "at will." This applies to both you as a worker, and your employer. If they want to get rid you, they can. If you don't want to work for them anymore, you don't have to. If TSL wanted to impose a restriction, they should have had a contract. If they DID have a contract, they should have chosen to enforce it. Regardless, they did not or would not, and this is no longer a question of morality.
3) Lastly, it depends on your definition of what is better for eSports in the long run. While the Korean training regimen may be better, I think it's also very easy to call it into question as to whether that regimen is better for the players, physically and mentally. If there is more money for these players on teams that don't require that level of self-flagellation, I think they'd be insane not to take it. There's more to life than how fun it is for you to watch. It matters whether it's healthy for the player. Right now, eSports is a very intense, burn-out experience. Few can sustain it. That's not the sign of a healthy industry.
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On July 22 2011 00:16 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:10 Proko wrote:On July 22 2011 00:06 Shiori wrote:
evidence for what? the non-binding nature of contracts which aren't enforced by anyone? if you think someone is going to approach the international human rights court for esports, you're kidding yourself. contracts are enforced by a federated organization to which all teams are signatory (as in soccer etc). consider i sign a contract with EG. consider i break it. what's eg's recourse? they can't bar me from professional esports. they certainly aren't going to take me to court over it, and even if they did, the best they can hope for is no severance and me being barred from EG EVENTS. that's why nobody bothers with contracts in esports: because they're a formality. You asserted that all teams were obeying some sort of chivalrous code of honor and that EG suddenly broke it. Contracts are enforced by governments. You write them so that they work. It's not hard, take for example, a noncompete clause. You are talking about something you apparently know nothing about. i don't think you understand that contracts actually follow formulae. you can't just throw in a noncompete clause and expect it to be honoured everywhere especially when certain states don't even allow them universally. regardless, if you know anything about contract law, you'll know that the legal recourse is generally limited to damages, and that those damages are proportional to the economic value of the contract. i pretty much guarantee the legal fees would cost more than the damages in these cases. hell, even the BW fixing scandal didn't entail huge fines/damages from a business point of view.
If Puma wants to compete in Korea the noncompete will be functional. I don't know how that would work were Puma to move to the U.S. but that doesn't apply here. It looks like Puma is staying.
In the US you would be entitle to legal fees from the party found to be breaking your noncompete, so you are fine there. Perhaps the Korean Legal system has no teeth, but I doubt it, given how predatory Kespa seemed to be.
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Sick, sick news to wake up to.
Why all the discussion of contracts? It sounds like Puma ASKED TSL to be let go, and they said "OK but you're all dicks."
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So by the time I saw this there were 162 pages of comments, has anybody figured out if Puma is moving to AZ to live with the team, or will he satelite from KR?
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With Trickster and FD released from TSL not too long ago as well, and forgive me for assuming but, isn't it fishy that there's a certain trend of disloyalty with this specific team. Perhaps they just mistreat or undervalue their players - ppl tend to forget that just because they are a "salaried" team, doesn't mean that the players are making sufficient enough for a living. Puma has been in the biz for quite sometime now and I trust his instincts when he believes he's found a more fruitful environment. It's going to be a large investment for EG but if their plans is truly the globalization of esports then this is a great step forward.
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On July 22 2011 00:19 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:13 AmericanUmlaut wrote:On July 21 2011 23:44 venge1155 wrote:
I can not wait until some of you get real jobs, with real contracts and try to leave with a head hunter. Tell me how that works out for you. I'm guessing you don't know what you're talking about. Employment in the US (where your profile indicates you're posting from) is generally at-will. You can walk away with a head hunter, and it will work out for you just fine. Your contract might specify a notification period before you can leave, but a head hunter doesn't need to talk to your boss before offering you a job. Try getting hired, and trained by one company, and then leaving in a month for another company. See how that does for your career. You have no idea what professional ethics are for jobs in the U.S. Most jobs are not like McDonalds and companies invest millions of dollars to train new employees. Financial analysts are a perfect example of this. You are entrusted with a lot of company secrets and if you leave for a competing company for higher salary (aka poaching), it is HUGELY looked down upon.
That's why you make non-disclosure and non-complete clauses in contracts. It's really pretty simple.
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EPT
