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On July 22 2011 00:11 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:10 Proko wrote:On July 22 2011 00:06 Shiori wrote:
evidence for what? the non-binding nature of contracts which aren't enforced by anyone? if you think someone is going to approach the international human rights court for esports, you're kidding yourself. contracts are enforced by a federated organization to which all teams are signatory (as in soccer etc). consider i sign a contract with EG. consider i break it. what's eg's recourse? they can't bar me from professional esports. they certainly aren't going to take me to court over it, and even if they did, the best they can hope for is no severance and me being barred from EG EVENTS. that's why nobody bothers with contracts in esports: because they're a formality. You asserted that all teams were obeying some sort of chivalrous code of honor and that EG suddenly broke it. Contracts are enforced by governments. You write them so that they work. It's not hard, take for example, a noncompete clause. You are talking about something you apparently know nothing about. If Puma decides to just stop practice, is TSL going to sue him over it or would it be more economical to just let him go? I think they chose the latter.
This ignores economic incentives for Puma, he doesn't practice he doesn't make money. If TSL pays him nothing, he quits when he wants, it's about salary, not honor.
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Korea has to be pissed that foreign teams are stealing all their players now. Apparently korean players want to go to foreign events pretty bad.
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On July 22 2011 00:09 -Frog- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:03 Shiori wrote:
this silliness about free agency is a technicality and you all know it. contracts don't exist in esports because there is no governing entity. in the lack of such an entity, most teams have stepped up to the plate and acted as if there were an unwritten rule of honour/ethics between. eg, obviously, has not. therefore, the people criticizing them for their lack of integrity are spot on. I am completely uneducated when it comes to contracts but why would an esports team need an esports specific governing body to enforce a contract? If a contract is written and signed and then broken by the player why couldn't the team take legal action against that player? And if it's the case that Puma broke his contract with TSL why didn't the team manager mention that in his angry statement?
A contract is a contract, as long as the contract doesn't include abusive clauses the contract is legal and can be enforced, that's the definition of a contract, no need for a governing body, you can go to court.
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Why is everyone discussing this like either EG, Puma, or TSL will give a crap? Just be supportive and carry on.
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On July 21 2011 23:44 venge1155 wrote:
I can not wait until some of you get real jobs, with real contracts and try to leave with a head hunter. Tell me how that works out for you.
I'm guessing you don't know what you're talking about. Employment in the US (where your profile indicates you're posting from) is generally at-will. You can walk away with a head hunter, and it will work out for you just fine. Your contract might specify a notification period before you can leave, but a head hunter doesn't need to talk to your boss before offering you a job.
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the thing is if TSL says no than puma will simply underperform
edit: and its quite sad cus puma wont reach his full potential in NA under EG, why you think everyone goes to korea?
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On July 22 2011 00:09 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:08 Gnabgib wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this"
LOL. There is. IT SHOULD BE IN HIS CONTRACT. and who would enforce such a contract?
That's the problem, like Boss said, teams which aren't his aren't rich enough to enforce the contract and Boss sure as shit doesn't want to get legal. No one wants that. But there's nothing stopping anyone. It's not like there's a KESPA to rule with an iron fist here. It's a free for all.
I hope the scene can evolve to a point where shit like this doesn't happen, but we're way off.
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On July 22 2011 00:12 Frostler wrote:
Korea has to be pissed that foreign teams are stealing all their players now. Apparently korean players want to go to foreign events pretty bad.
They could try, like, paying higher salary and having more tournaments with reasonable prize pools and durations.
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If somehow they could get Puma to go to the EG teamhouse.
EG Is now the Yankees, and I am a fan of the Yankees.
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On July 22 2011 00:11 CeriseCherries wrote:
Remember that TSL did release Puma, so to a certain extent, they agreed. EG is a business and although a little not nice, there is nothing shady about what they did. Shady implies some corruption or some bribe, or some other bad business practice. All they did here is violate some people's sense of ethics.
And you know, EG isn't universally loved. I bet they would not be happy even if EG approached TSL in the first place. However, the benefits are immense for EG- it has been so often in team leagues a carried team. A purchase was coming, and Puma is a good one. Maybe his practice habits will rub off on IdrA.
I personally would much rather have Idra stay Idra, and not have him change one bit.
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wow 1 day and its already 161 pages.
I was jyust as shocked as the next guy I thought that the korean teams weren't stupid and would contract down their good players.
EGpuma FIGHTING!!!!
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On July 22 2011 00:12 seoul_kiM wrote:
Why is everyone discussing this like either EG, Puma, or TSL will give a crap? Just be supportive and carry on.
I actually think you're right. These people concerned are actually moving on (I guess). 
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On July 22 2011 00:09 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:03 zinzio wrote:
If the rumors are true on how EG went about acquiring Puma, I will have to find another team to root for. Even under the suggested conditions (that Puma may not have even made a salary) I can't stand to think EG would have went to Puma directly without speaking to his team/managers. Just seems very dirty and completely unprofessional. Shame on you EG. I think not many people on TL follow professional sports so they don't understand how egregious poaching a player from a team is.
As has been said many many times, this is nothing like professional sports. There is no all encompassing league with teams and owners and there is no player's union. It is way more akin to normal jobs/companies that operate independently from one another than professional sports where every team/player/owner interact only with one another.
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This is great news for EG
Not so good for TSL though. There should be rules to regulate players moving between teams, otherwise no team will be training talents but rather 'steal' good players from other teams.
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and the title of the thread is misleading, TSL released puma, eg picks puma up
that makes it sound like TSL made the first move
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On July 22 2011 00:13 Goibon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:09 Shiori wrote:On July 22 2011 00:08 Gnabgib wrote:On July 21 2011 15:00 Milkis wrote:
He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this"
LOL. There is. IT SHOULD BE IN HIS CONTRACT. and who would enforce such a contract? That's the problem, like Boss said, teams which aren't his aren't rich enough to enforce the contract and Boss sure as shit doesn't want to get legal. No one wants that. But there's nothing stopping anyone. It's not like there's a KESPA to rule with an iron fist here. It's a free for all. I hope the scene can evolve to a point where shit like this doesn't happen, but we're way off.
On July 22 2011 00:12 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:09 -Frog- wrote:On July 22 2011 00:03 Shiori wrote:
this silliness about free agency is a technicality and you all know it. contracts don't exist in esports because there is no governing entity. in the lack of such an entity, most teams have stepped up to the plate and acted as if there were an unwritten rule of honour/ethics between. eg, obviously, has not. therefore, the people criticizing them for their lack of integrity are spot on. I am completely uneducated when it comes to contracts but why would an esports team need an esports specific governing body to enforce a contract? If a contract is written and signed and then broken by the player why couldn't the team take legal action against that player? And if it's the case that Puma broke his contract with TSL why didn't the team manager mention that in his angry statement? A contract is a contract, as long as the contract doesn't include abusive clauses the contract is legal and can be enforced, that's the definition of a contract, no need for a governing body, you can go to court.
The problem here is that so many people are giving conflicting reports over how hard or easy it is to enforce a contract.
Where is the hard evidence for either side? Exactly how expensive is it to pursue legal action against a player who breaks a contract? How necessary is it to have a governing body that ensures players don't break contracts at the drop of a hat.
Too much speculation and not enough facts.
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On July 22 2011 00:08 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:07 Bitters wrote:On July 22 2011 00:02 Cubu wrote:On July 21 2011 23:52 Bitters wrote:
I can't really understand this thread, maybe someone can help me out.
Puma is on TSL, goes and dominates NASL. Is approached by EG about joining a foreign team, he decides he wants to go this route. Puma tells TSL the news, they can:
A) Tell him no, you are under contract and cannot leave the team
B) Tell him yes, we will release you from your contractual obligations
C) Can't tell him anything, because they don't have him under contract
If "A", then this news doesn't occur. If "B", then TSL opted not to enforce their contract and have no reason to complain about Puma leaving, and EG could be seen in a negative light for trying to poach a contracted player. If "C", then TSL would be upset and complain about the situation because they did not have the intelligence or foresight to contract their "professional" players on a "professional" team. With these teams being involved with money, salaries, sponsors, there is no reason to think they do not need contracts.
With the response from TSL (complaining and finger pointing), it seems "C" is the likely scenario. I have no idea how someone can blame EG for doing what's right by them. If you have a star player not under contract, you do what you can to get him under contract. You don't need to talk to TSL, they are his team, not his "agent" (since he likely doesn't have an agent, Puma would represent himself then). When professional sports players are unrestricted free agents (not under contract) you don't need to deal with the team they were on, you deal with the agent.
And if Puma was under contract ("B"), then TSL should give its head a shake for not enforcing there own stipulations and then complaining about Puma joining a team after they green-lighted his release.
Edit:
And for those saying "but in Korea, you do this with manner, talk to the team, etc."...
Sorry, but an American team making an offer at NASL (on American soil in an American based tournament) to someone playing a Global e-sport, should not be expected to follow a single countries rules. If they do, then they are going out of their way to be exceptionally inclusive, but I don't see how this should be the standard. People stopped arguing about whether it was lawfully right or wrong a while ago, the centre of arguement seems to be about whether it was right or wrong from a moral POV. That's fine, but my post can still speak to a moral perspective. EG is in competition with TSL, and every other professional team. They compete in team leagues, for sponsors, etc. I could argue EG is morally OBLIGATED to seek the best deals, best sponsors, best everything for its team and players. In this case, getting Puma signed is best for the team and may help them win more team leagues and gain more sponsors. Morality and ethics aren't black and white. It's all perspective. And it's not all warm and fuzzy. If you're running a fortune 500 company and suddenly want to invest all your profits to charity, is that ethical? It's definitely warm and fuzzy because it's "going to a good cause". But is it ethical to your shareholders and investors? EG is acting morally in regards to the people it needs to take care of. TSL did not act morally trying to keep a player without promising them anything (via contract) and then bad mouthing them in public after the fact. this is stretching 'morally' pretty perversely.
I disagree, do you have a certain explanation how it is?
This isn't black and white like killing an innocent person. Morality is not a simple clear cut concept, which is why whole courses of Philosophy are dedicated to them at University.
Also, as people have brought up different cultures, each culture has different perspectives of morality. Are you trying to blanket Korean morals on an American company? They aren't dealing in Korea (as far as I remember, they are not competing in any Korean tournaments). They are dealing from their own moral perspective, based in western business ethics. And business ethics would dictate them to look after their shareholders before competing interests (that's how business law is written, and why you can have shareholder lawsuits).
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ROFL all this rage is pretty ridiculous - I mean, if we want esports to grow professional, then YES, this kind of competition is what I want to see.
Figo changed from Barca to Real because they paid him better for crying out loud. I don't want all the teams being all warm and cosy...because that's not what competition is about. EG saw a great player who they thought they could potentially convince to join them and they just went for it. I 100% approve of this.
And of course it would be possible to stipulate binding contracts in esports, so one player can't just change teams whenever he wants to. Simply because teams obviously didn't bother to deal with that, doesn't mean they shouldn't. As a matter of fact, this is also what esports needs to become more professional. Maybe teams will learn from that and let contracts be drafted by competent lawyers from now on. As in, like...every other business and professional sport as well.
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If Korean Teams want players to stay they will have to pay. The problem is there is more money coming into the foreign e-sports teams. So eventually players are going to follow the money and who can fault them for that? All of you would switch jobs if the pay an benefits were better right?
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On July 22 2011 00:10 Proko wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 00:06 Shiori wrote:
evidence for what? the non-binding nature of contracts which aren't enforced by anyone? if you think someone is going to approach the international human rights court for esports, you're kidding yourself. contracts are enforced by a federated organization to which all teams are signatory (as in soccer etc). consider i sign a contract with EG. consider i break it. what's eg's recourse? they can't bar me from professional esports. they certainly aren't going to take me to court over it, and even if they did, the best they can hope for is no severance and me being barred from EG EVENTS. that's why nobody bothers with contracts in esports: because they're a formality. You asserted that all teams were obeying some sort of chivalrous code of honor and that EG suddenly broke it. Contracts are enforced by governments. You write them so that they work. It's not hard, take for example, a noncompete clause. You are talking about something you apparently know nothing about.
i don't think you understand that contracts actually follow formulae. you can't just throw in a noncompete clause and expect it to be honoured everywhere especially when certain states don't even allow them universally.
regardless, if you know anything about contract law, you'll know that the legal recourse is generally limited to damages, and that those damages are proportional to the economic value of the contract. i pretty much guarantee the legal fees would cost more than the damages in these cases. hell, even the BW fixing scandal didn't entail huge fines/damages from a business point of view.
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EPT
