What valid points would you like me to respond to?
Mostly the ones that discuss how you handled the situation AFTER the fact and your massive generalizing of the community into one faceless hater. One such example is this one.
Dont lump every single person who has commented "against" you in this thread into 1 pile. Some call you a hypocrite, some insult you, some question your evidence regarding this accusatory statement, and some are just merely curious as to what exactly you meant. It might be easy to view everyone as a single entity, "the haters", but that would not be correct.
Oh and it's 20+ pages not because there's a heated, dramafilled debate regarding what you said. Just individuals adding their thoughts to it. Noone is saying this shit is super important or anything of the sorts, but are only important things allowed to be discussed? Can we only write something when it is very important? Is that how you reached your 27k+ posts? People saw something being said they perceived as incorrect and hypocritical, so they spoke up against it. Nothing wrong with that, if you except the douchebags who felt the need to insult you.
Most of the time what upsets me about the things you say isn't the original 'offensive' statement but rather the sarcasm and the deflecting that occurs afterwards in which everybody is portrayed as out to get you.
Good day.
his entire post is a strawman argument with horribad logic.
and LOL @ you. Read this thread and then try and blame me for feeling like "everyone is out to get me" you kidding me?
PS: GOOD DAY SIR!
I personally don't see the horribad logic in this....
It might be easy to view everyone as a single entity, "the haters", but that would not be correct.
but if you do you must enlighten me I guess. Oh well.
On July 15 2011 17:48 Wesso wrote: Maybe Incontrol has some inside information, like TB asking more money than others for casting in large tournaments etc. Still strange to say such a thing randomly in an interview, and not at all the impression I have of TB.
I don't think I really need to get involved in this thread in a major way, the community has already made it's stance known and I thank them for that, but I can provide a little perspective on this one.
NASL paid $100 for my casting with Gretorp, for a 4-5 hour job. This is their "standard fee", I do not know what they paid everyone else. I accepted it and added it to the prizepool for SCI.
I spent a couple of thousand to get to Dreamhack, I was not paid for that event. I got VoD rights which meant I could recoup some of it over the course of several months, otherwise I paid my travel and accomodation, rented a car, brought my own gear and was asked to cast on the Dreamhack stream so they received the stream revenue.
As for the other tournaments, aside from IPL who have a tendency of paying everyone fairly, players included as you've seen from IPL's prize distribution, I've made a loss on every tournament I've casted, because it takes time away from doing other, more popular content. Just to clear up some outdated information by some folks, I stopped doing WoW content a couple of months ago because I was no longer enjoying the game. It was a big earner but I cut it entirely, specifically in protest at a move by Blizzard to appease bad players by nerfing the content I enjoyed. I believed this was a betrayal of their statement they made at the start of this expansion, that "Raiding is hard, man up and get better". My primary income at this point comes from my daily Mailbox gaming podcast, my WTF is? (by far the most popular series I do), Terraria and my League of Legends gameplays. Starcraft 2 remains a small portion of my income and as you all know, all my stream revenue funds tournaments so I don't see a dime of that.
One last thing for those with short memories.
- my first Starcraft 2 cast, on Day 1 of beta. As a sidenote of trivia, this cast was featured by Blizzard as a way to help people overcome their fear of getting into SC2.
- the day I became a Youtube partner, 6 months later. If you don't understand what that means, in order to get paid for any videos you do, you have to be a partner, so I wasn't earning anything at all from it before that. I think you can draw your own conclusions there.
I don't think anything else really needs to be addressed, others have said it for me. Look out for a special announcement coming very soon on the tournament side of things!
iNcontroL, how about answering this rather non-hateful post <3
On July 16 2011 10:05 iNcontroL wrote: but that doesn't stop me from having the opinion that I'd rather someone gets hired blindly then people come here for the money.
Did it ever occur to you that people don't agree with this, and hence that is why there is 28 pages discussing it?
What valid points would you like me to respond to?
Mostly the ones that discuss how you handled the situation AFTER the fact and your massive generalizing of the community into one faceless hater. One such example is this one.
Dont lump every single person who has commented "against" you in this thread into 1 pile. Some call you a hypocrite, some insult you, some question your evidence regarding this accusatory statement, and some are just merely curious as to what exactly you meant. It might be easy to view everyone as a single entity, "the haters", but that would not be correct.
Oh and it's 20+ pages not because there's a heated, dramafilled debate regarding what you said. Just individuals adding their thoughts to it. Noone is saying this shit is super important or anything of the sorts, but are only important things allowed to be discussed? Can we only write something when it is very important? Is that how you reached your 27k+ posts? People saw something being said they perceived as incorrect and hypocritical, so they spoke up against it. Nothing wrong with that, if you except the douchebags who felt the need to insult you.
Most of the time what upsets me about the things you say isn't the original 'offensive' statement but rather the sarcasm and the deflecting that occurs afterwards in which everybody is portrayed as out to get you.
Good day.
his entire post is a strawman argument with horribad logic.
and LOL @ you. Read this thread and then try and blame me for feeling like "everyone is out to get me" you kidding me?
PS: GOOD DAY SIR!
"Came for the money" - Opportunity to profit off new game.
Now, TB doesn't make as much of a profit off SC2 as he did with WoW (viewer wise). So if he "came for the money", why is he still in an industry that it less profitable to him? Geoff we're not all out to get you here... Some people in this thread are making valid points towards your argument and yet you're dismissing them as forum whiners. As someone who enjoys interacting with the community (some days), don't you feel it would be better to address those points rather than blanket statements towards "the haters".
It's less about respect for TB and more about how absurd is what he said. What I understand is he'd rather have someone who's innocent than who has a commercial interest in the scene. But Lindsay was not innocent, she was incompetent. It's fine that she isn't a prototypical geek or doesn't know who drewbie is, but she should check beforehand that it was the first live event or that the single game it covers doesn't have the race G. To take less offense from her "work" is an insult to anyone who ever did a mildly competent job.
On July 16 2011 08:43 Insane wrote: I'm not sure why people are acting like what he said about TB makes it a bad interview (you can disagree vehemently with someone on something and it doesn't mean the interview is bad). If anything, it's refreshing to hear someone actually express their opinion without dancing around acting super PC about everything. If anything, the shitstorm that resulted from it is going to result in people being less open about it .
Incontrol, the mediocre player that flamebates on TL forums then acts all surprised when people bite. Talking down on TB is ridiculous too. People like TB and Take actually put their own money into SC2. Which takes a lot more guts than to just show your face everywhere and then claim you help ESPORTZZ.
While I'm not going to claim "Incontrol #1 Protoss NA" or something silly, he's not exactly some guy who just goes around yelling "ESPORTS" while doing nothing. He's dedicated like a decade of his life to Starcraft, and has consistently been one of the most active community members on TL, both in posting and in doing other things. I don't know how much of his actual bank account he has put into Starcraft, but given the whole "time = money" concept, he's put in a lot more money than either Take or TB have.
On July 16 2011 08:42 Robonord wrote: I honestly do not understand how Incontrol has any fans when he acts like this.
He has fans because some people appreciate people who don't act super PC all the time, and Incontrol brings personality to SC2. It's why Idra has one of the largest fanbases around (no, not everyone who follows him just likes seeing him rage).
I find it amusing when people talk anti-PC, freedom of speech bullshit. What you fail to realize is that our disagreement with 'edgy, say what they want' people such as Incontrol and Idra is free speech as well. So yeah, they are entitled to say whatever they please. The community can also express themselves as well.
Also, liking people for the sake that they 'troll and offend people' is basically what kills other gaming communities. HoN for example has a notoriously awful and elitist community. Go visit dotallyrad.com and see the kind of shit that gets posted there to see a community of 'super cool anti-PC people speaking their minds.'
Geoff the thing that interests me is how on earth you can say TB switched from WoW to SC content for the money. His WoW stuff was viewed way more and his WTF is series gets more views then his SC stuff.
Now if you could cite some sort of evidence to defend your point that TB started doing SC content on the sole basis to make money then I don't think you'd be getting the flak that you are. I think most of it comes from the fact that you say somthing that isn't true (TB switched to SC for money) and then try and argue it as fact without anything helping your case.
I'm still a fan but taking an unwarranted shot at someone who does a ton for the community just doesn't sit well with me. Not to mention what you said is completly untrue.
On July 16 2011 09:39 iNcontroL wrote: it's true.. in general tl is spoken as a place we (progamers) NEED to avoid I am reluctant but it truly is stupid that I post here.
giant flash mobs of anger / band wagon shit. eventually all the progamers will avoid interacting with the public and people will probably barely notice but it will be sad...
count the progamers that post here now
When progamers stop posting The Haters win - George W Bush
On July 16 2011 10:07 Dental Floss wrote: No, thats stupid. All progamers deserver our respect. No caster would have a job, no production team would be editing audio, no trolls would be calling people nazis; none of this is possible without the players.
pro gamers are entertainers... entertaining people who have spare time and sometimes spare money.
what makes all this "gaming" possible is an economy that creates enough surplus to allow people time to watch and play fun games a lot.
that is what deserves our respect.
next in line would be the game creators....
so without an economy producing at a surplus for millions of people and without the game's creators... none of this would exist.
Inc do you coach for money or for the love of the game? How many players do you have under your wing that you mentor for free in hopes they make pro status?? Wouldn't that tickle your fancy?
None?
Okay well it's that you have a skill!!! A skill that people will pay for! Money! And TB has a skill! Casting!! Match made in fucking heaven I'd say. He saw a game he could cast and be successful at. You saw a game you could coach and be successful at. Problem? I don't see one.
And I dont see many people out there who you could hire blindly for this kind of casting gig..? Hellolol everybody this is Seananners bringing you a tvp on meta...
On July 15 2011 17:48 Wesso wrote: Maybe Incontrol has some inside information, like TB asking more money than others for casting in large tournaments etc. Still strange to say such a thing randomly in an interview, and not at all the impression I have of TB.
I don't think I really need to get involved in this thread in a major way, the community has already made it's stance known and I thank them for that, but I can provide a little perspective on this one.
NASL paid $100 for my casting with Gretorp, for a 4-5 hour job. This is their "standard fee", I do not know what they paid everyone else. I accepted it and added it to the prizepool for SCI.
I spent a couple of thousand to get to Dreamhack, I was not paid for that event. I got VoD rights which meant I could recoup some of it over the course of several months, otherwise I paid my travel and accomodation, rented a car, brought my own gear and was asked to cast on the Dreamhack stream so they received the stream revenue.
As for the other tournaments, aside from IPL who have a tendency of paying everyone fairly, players included as you've seen from IPL's prize distribution, I've made a loss on every tournament I've casted, because it takes time away from doing other, more popular content. Just to clear up some outdated information by some folks, I stopped doing WoW content a couple of months ago because I was no longer enjoying the game. It was a big earner but I cut it entirely, specifically in protest at a move by Blizzard to appease bad players by nerfing the content I enjoyed. I believed this was a betrayal of their statement they made at the start of this expansion, that "Raiding is hard, man up and get better". My primary income at this point comes from my daily Mailbox gaming podcast, my WTF is? (by far the most popular series I do), Terraria and my League of Legends gameplays. Starcraft 2 remains a small portion of my income and as you all know, all my stream revenue funds tournaments so I don't see a dime of that.
One last thing for those with short memories.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Rv-s-7rNk - my first Starcraft 2 cast, on Day 1 of beta. As a sidenote of trivia, this cast was featured by Blizzard as a way to help people overcome their fear of getting into SC2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWiS9GFNBX0 - the day I became a Youtube partner, 6 months later. If you don't understand what that means, in order to get paid for any videos you do, you have to be a partner, so I wasn't earning anything at all from it before that. I think you can draw your own conclusions there.
I don't think anything else really needs to be addressed, others have said it for me. Look out for a special announcement coming very soon on the tournament side of things!
On July 16 2011 10:46 Castrophy wrote: Geoff the thing that interests me is how on earth you can say TB switched from WoW to SC content for the money. His WoW stuff was viewed way more and his WTF is series gets more views then his SC stuff.
Now if you could cite some sort of evidence to defend your point that TB started doing SC content on the sole basis to make money then I don't think you'd be getting the flak that you are. I think most of it comes from the fact that you say somthing that isn't true (TB switched to SC for money) and then try and argue it as fact without anything helping your case.
I'm still a fan but taking an unwarranted shot at someone who does a ton for the community just doesn't sit well with me. Not to mention what you said is completly untrue.
This.
I don't think Incontrol will respond to(or even notice) your post though. He usually only responds to those who are the most inflammatory.
On July 16 2011 10:40 EnderCraft wrote: "Came for the money" - Opportunity to profit off new game.
Now, TB doesn't make any profit off of SC2, he would be better off producing WoW content. So if he "came for the money", why is he still in an industry that it less profitable to him? Geoff we're not all out to get you here... Some people in this thread are making valid points towards your argument and yet you're dismissing them as forum whiners. As someone who enjoys interacting with the community (some days), don't you feel it would be better to address those points rather than blanket statements towards "the haters".
Would just like to correct your facts here. I do make a profit from SC2 but it's not significant in comparison to my other series. SC2 involves a fair amount of monetary investment, lot of equipment purchased to improve casting quality (for instance I now have a 2-channel compressed audio interface and good quality headsets), travel costs for tournaments, the cost of the tournaments and sponsoring stuff like the UK University Team League, as well as paying half my casting revenue to those who co-cast with me such as TLO and Apollo. SHOUTcraft 2 will definitely make me a loss, I won't make that money back from the VoDs. The profit margin on SC2 is low, as is the income relative to everything else. WTF is makes a pretty absurd amount of money and more often than not, requires no monetary investment. The games are usually provided for free.
But yeah, SC2 is not a charity gig for me, it does make me money, but nowhere near as much as everything else I do. I do have a fairly diverse portfolio of series.
On July 16 2011 10:46 Castrophy wrote: Geoff the thing that interests me is how on earth you can say TB switched from WoW to SC content for the money. His WoW stuff was viewed way more and his WTF is series gets more views then his SC stuff.
Now if you could cite some sort of evidence to defend your point that TB started doing SC content on the sole basis to make money then I don't think you'd be getting the flak that you are. I think most of it comes from the fact that you say somthing that isn't true (TB switched to SC for money) and then try and argue it as fact without anything helping your case.
I'm still a fan but taking an unwarranted shot at someone who does a ton for the community just doesn't sit well with me. Not to mention what you said is completly untrue.
This.
I don't think Incontrol will respond to(or even notice) your post though. He usually only responds to those who are the most inflammatory.
I would like to see an answer to this as well. We must somehow get incontrol to notice this post (the nested quote).
On July 16 2011 09:39 iNcontroL wrote: it's true.. in general tl is spoken as a place we (progamers) NEED to avoid I am reluctant but it truly is stupid that I post here.
giant flash mobs of anger / band wagon shit. eventually all the progamers will avoid interacting with the public and people will probably barely notice but it will be sad...
count the progamers that post here now
You have to be fucking retarded if you didn't realize your statement about TB would bring on a shitstorm. I don't even know how you could answer that question in a more flamebaiting way. I do agree that pro-gamers receive unneccesary flak for some things they say, but this is certainly not one of those cases.
On July 16 2011 09:39 iNcontroL wrote: it's true.. in general tl is spoken as a place we (progamers) NEED to avoid I am reluctant but it truly is stupid that I post here.
giant flash mobs of anger / band wagon shit. eventually all the progamers will avoid interacting with the public and people will probably barely notice but it will be sad...
count the progamers that post here now
This is exactly the attitude that makes me roll my eyes. You think that the peasants are so deprived that we pray every day for the pro-gaming master race to bless us with forum posts, no matter who the individual is or what is being posted.
If you don't want to post here, then don't post here. But don't pretend like you're doing us a favor or something simply by giving us your mere presence.
It's silly to call out casters for trying to make money off of SC2, it seems extremely hypocritical coming out of Incontrol out of all people. The only reason an EG sc2 division even exists is because of the money making potential in the sc2 scene.
I mean what about http://www.gosuguide.com/? Only $99.99 ! You can't criticize others when you're trying to milk as much money out of the sc2 scene yourself.
Besides that, appreciate the read and info on NASL.
I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit.
Coming from Incontrol, this is laughable.... This is a guy that coaches instead of practices as a pro, to make money. This is a guy that got paid to commentate and hype NASL (rather than do it for free like Day9/TB/others have done many tournaments). This is coming from a guy that largely makes his money off of the community rather than giving anything tangible back to it because he isn't even a good enough player to win anything significant and earn money in that regard. He gets paid for his sponsors exposure, so he goes and does talk shows instead of training because he isn't good enough to actually win stuff or place well.
What a fucking joke.
There was absolutely no requirement for you to say something like that in this interview, Geoff. Now you just seem like a massive douchebag, especially considering that you don't actually give anything tangible to this community for free like Day9, and countless others (Mr. Bitter, Artosis, etc.)
EPT
. 
