I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit.
That's ironic because I've always - and still - think that way about Incontrol. I mean, this is the guy who tried to sell an overpriced SC2 guide and offer equally overpriced 'coaching.' And these overpriced services pale in comparison to learning from Day9 dailies or simply reading up on the TL forums, meaning they target people who just don't know any better. Sounds like someone 'doing it for the money' to me.
I don't even know why he acts as if anyone - whether Lindsey or TB - needs his blessing or approval to do what they do.
I just find it funny Incontrol gets so mad about people speaking negative about him by claiming we "don't know the whole story" then he says TB got into SC2 purely for the money when he himself doesn't "know the whole story" about TBs actual investment in the scene (as seen by TBs post in this thread)
Because his assumptions, are baseless, hypocritical and uninformed. He said TB moved to sc2 to make money. This is stupid because TB in fact lost viewers by doing this, his WoW audience was much larger. The same justification he used for lindsay could be used for TB. Why is it less "offensive" for her to make money off sc2, but not TB?
This horse has been beaten to death in this thread. Obviously Dental Floss either didn't read it, or would defend Incontrol no matter what he said, it is pointless to argue with him.
Nice try, but "disagreeing with haters" does not equal "agreeing with incontrol". Thats exactly the kind of poor critical thinking I was talking about earlier.
I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit. I take less offense to someone like Lindsey, an actress and a model, getting hired for a gig and she says yes not because she’s looking to get rich but because it’s a good job doing what she enjoys and she’s dedicated to doing it well.
uh i really like Lindsey but obviously she also benefit from the monetary aspect of SC2 as well as the exposure ( which is exactly what you argued drove TB to cast SC2).
I don't see how they are different in this aspect at all. In fact TB is very dedicated to doing his SC2 stuff well and I can argue he has done more.
If you want to argue that at 12 years old I started playing competitive SC knowing that I could make my "riches" at 25 off of SC2 and I built a career over that span of time purely to do that then please go ahead.
What?? I didn't say that at all. In fact i didn't say anything about you. I only compared TB and Lindsey.
My point was both TB and Lindsey came to SC2 because of monetary incentive. I don't see how one is more noble than the other.
Out of a 4,000 word interview, the community has to nitpick 1 sentence out of 1 paragraph? Just let it go, the article is about NASL, not TB. If everyone actually wants to discuss the selflessness and altruistic actions of each person in the Starcraft scene, go make a thread with a poll of all the major people in the community and settle it there.
Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit. I take less offense to someone like Lindsey, an actress and a model, getting hired for a gig and she says yes not because she’s looking to get rich but because it’s a good job doing what she enjoys and she’s dedicated to doing it well.
uh i really like Lindsey but obviously she also benefit from the monetary aspect of SC2 as well as the exposure ( which is exactly what you argued drove TB to cast SC2).
I don't see how they are different in this aspect at all. In fact TB is very dedicated to doing his SC2 stuff well and I can argue he has done more.
If you want to argue that at 12 years old I started playing competitive SC knowing that I could make my "riches" at 25 off of SC2 and I built a career over that span of time purely to do that then please go ahead.
What?? I didn't say that at all. In fact i didn't say anything about you. I only compared TB and Lindsey.
My point was both TB and Lindsey came to SC2 because of monetary incentive. I don't see how one is more noble than the other.
Out of a 4,000 word interview, the community has to nitpick 1 sentence out of 1 paragraph? Just let it go, the article is about NASL, not TB. If everyone actually wants to discuss the selflessness and altruistic actions of each person in the Starcraft scene, go make a thread with a poll of all the major people in the community and settle it there.
Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
Welp, this is it; we've crossed the threshold. People have now officially invoked Adolf Hitler in the context of an Incontrol interview. Guess I was wrong; people were being fair after all.
I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit. I take less offense to someone like Lindsey, an actress and a model, getting hired for a gig and she says yes not because she’s looking to get rich but because it’s a good job doing what she enjoys and she’s dedicated to doing it well.
uh i really like Lindsey but obviously she also benefit from the monetary aspect of SC2 as well as the exposure ( which is exactly what you argued drove TB to cast SC2).
I don't see how they are different in this aspect at all. In fact TB is very dedicated to doing his SC2 stuff well and I can argue he has done more.
If you want to argue that at 12 years old I started playing competitive SC knowing that I could make my "riches" at 25 off of SC2 and I built a career over that span of time purely to do that then please go ahead.
What?? I didn't say that at all. In fact i didn't say anything about you. I only compared TB and Lindsey.
My point was both TB and Lindsey came to SC2 because of monetary incentive. I don't see how one is more noble than the other.
Out of a 4,000 word interview, the community has to nitpick 1 sentence out of 1 paragraph? Just let it go, the article is about NASL, not TB. If everyone actually wants to discuss the selflessness and altruistic actions of each person in the Starcraft scene, go make a thread with a poll of all the major people in the community and settle it there.
Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
Welp, this is it; we've crossed the threshold. People have now officially invoked Adolf Hitler in the context of an Incontrol interview. Guess I was wrong; people were being fair after all.
I'm out; peace.
I didn't compare anything Incontrol did to Hitler, I simply pointed out the stupidity of saying 'Well it's only one sentence out of so many words." But I guess if you can't make logical arguments it's best if you left.
On July 16 2011 05:47 Dental Floss wrote: In fact, I would further like to say there is a thought process on TL that is like "Well, incontrol was being critical of someone and that isn't okay. However, I'm being critical of incontrol and thats fine." This kind of egocentrism is a hallmark of non-critical thinking and can be considered the lowest form of self serving thought.
What horrible horrible reasoning. We are being critical of somebody for making defamatory and hypocritical remarks in an official interview.
Us pointing that out isn't hypocritical nor defamatory.
That is some serious hyperbole. Incontrol was stating his opinion about the very rude treatment that Lindsay got for her coverage at NASL. If you don't want to know a players honest opinion about something don't read an interview from them.
If Incontrol had lied in the interview and not told us how he felt I think that would be worse.
So are you saying that the TB remark was needed otherwise he lied? That is the thing ppl are mad off, nowhere did the interviewer even gave a hint to him but suddenly incontrol calls his name to defend someone else.
Its just a guy talking off the cuff. I would LOVE to see you give an interview. Its so insanely hard to come up with answers on the spot. I have never ever given an interview or speech where I didn't think back and think of 10 things I could have phrased better.
Thats the issue; nobody wants to give anyone the benefit of a doubt. Like incontrol slightly colors one statement in a negative way and it gets echo-chambered into this overly-dramatic bizarro-world version of what he actually said.
Benefit of the doubt? ok
On July 15 2011 13:10 iNcontroL wrote: tb didn't move to sc2 because he has always had a passion for sc guys.. he did it to make money.
hmmm, something is wrong here.
Whats negative about what Incontrol said? Hey guys; I only go to work to make money. I'm literally in the IT field just for the money.
My boss is also only working there for money. But don't tell him I said that; he might get mad(??)
Because his assumptions, are baseless, hypocritical and uninformed. He said TB moved to sc2 to make money. This is stupid because TB in fact lost viewers by doing this, his WoW audience was much larger. The same justification he used for lindsay could be used for TB. Why is it less "offensive" for her to make money off sc2, but not TB?
You're using a lot of very specious evidence in this argument. You don't know what TB's intentions were; you don't know what lindsay got paid, you don't know much money in SC2 for anyone of these casters.
And I don't know either. We're fundamentally ignorant of TB or incontrol's finances. We're fundamentally ignorant of Incontrol or TB's real motivations. We know essentially nothing substantial about either of these people. Thats why we look to interviews to see what the players and casters really believe themselves. Even then however we only see a shallow slice of their real personalities.
And that is also why we should take their opinions on face value without feeling the need to judge them. Its not our place to decide who is right or who is wrong. We cannot possibly know enough information about any of these people's lives to declare them "ignorant" or "hateful" or "hypocritical".
Exactly why Incontrols statements were in fact, baseless, hypocritical, and uninformed. Thanks for proving my point. And Incontrol said things that were hypocritical and ignorant. So yes I can declare him as such.
exactly. a lot of the people who are defending Incontrol are obviously missing the point. I have nothing against him, and i would have nothing against the fact that he dislikes somebody else in the community. It's just that you can't go around trying to back up your personal contempt for someone by using false information, information which has been disproven
I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit. I take less offense to someone like Lindsey, an actress and a model, getting hired for a gig and she says yes not because she’s looking to get rich but because it’s a good job doing what she enjoys and she’s dedicated to doing it well.
uh i really like Lindsey but obviously she also benefit from the monetary aspect of SC2 as well as the exposure ( which is exactly what you argued drove TB to cast SC2).
I don't see how they are different in this aspect at all. In fact TB is very dedicated to doing his SC2 stuff well and I can argue he has done more.
If you want to argue that at 12 years old I started playing competitive SC knowing that I could make my "riches" at 25 off of SC2 and I built a career over that span of time purely to do that then please go ahead.
What?? I didn't say that at all. In fact i didn't say anything about you. I only compared TB and Lindsey.
My point was both TB and Lindsey came to SC2 because of monetary incentive. I don't see how one is more noble than the other.
Out of a 4,000 word interview, the community has to nitpick 1 sentence out of 1 paragraph? Just let it go, the article is about NASL, not TB. If everyone actually wants to discuss the selflessness and altruistic actions of each person in the Starcraft scene, go make a thread with a poll of all the major people in the community and settle it there.
Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit. I take less offense to someone like Lindsey, an actress and a model, getting hired for a gig and she says yes not because she’s looking to get rich but because it’s a good job doing what she enjoys and she’s dedicated to doing it well.
uh i really like Lindsey but obviously she also benefit from the monetary aspect of SC2 as well as the exposure ( which is exactly what you argued drove TB to cast SC2).
I don't see how they are different in this aspect at all. In fact TB is very dedicated to doing his SC2 stuff well and I can argue he has done more.
If you want to argue that at 12 years old I started playing competitive SC knowing that I could make my "riches" at 25 off of SC2 and I built a career over that span of time purely to do that then please go ahead.
What?? I didn't say that at all. In fact i didn't say anything about you. I only compared TB and Lindsey.
My point was both TB and Lindsey came to SC2 because of monetary incentive. I don't see how one is more noble than the other.
Out of a 4,000 word interview, the community has to nitpick 1 sentence out of 1 paragraph? Just let it go, the article is about NASL, not TB. If everyone actually wants to discuss the selflessness and altruistic actions of each person in the Starcraft scene, go make a thread with a poll of all the major people in the community and settle it there.
Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
*sigh* Really? If you are going to try to be clever by only posting a link as a response to someone, at least make sure your reading comprehension is up to par. There was no comparison of Hitler to anyone as Godwin's law suggests there will eventually be... Hitler was merely mentioned.
I honestly take more offense at people coming from other sports just to make money in Starcraft II--someone like TotalBiscuit. I take less offense to someone like Lindsey, an actress and a model, getting hired for a gig and she says yes not because she’s looking to get rich but because it’s a good job doing what she enjoys and she’s dedicated to doing it well.
uh i really like Lindsey but obviously she also benefit from the monetary aspect of SC2 as well as the exposure ( which is exactly what you argued drove TB to cast SC2).
I don't see how they are different in this aspect at all. In fact TB is very dedicated to doing his SC2 stuff well and I can argue he has done more.
If you want to argue that at 12 years old I started playing competitive SC knowing that I could make my "riches" at 25 off of SC2 and I built a career over that span of time purely to do that then please go ahead.
What?? I didn't say that at all. In fact i didn't say anything about you. I only compared TB and Lindsey.
My point was both TB and Lindsey came to SC2 because of monetary incentive. I don't see how one is more noble than the other.
Out of a 4,000 word interview, the community has to nitpick 1 sentence out of 1 paragraph? Just let it go, the article is about NASL, not TB. If everyone actually wants to discuss the selflessness and altruistic actions of each person in the Starcraft scene, go make a thread with a poll of all the major people in the community and settle it there.
Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
Welp, this is it; we've crossed the threshold. People have now officially invoked Adolf Hitler in the context of an Incontrol interview. Guess I was wrong; people were being fair after all.
I'm out; peace.
It's just an extreme example making a point, nobody is comparing Geoff to Hitler. O_o
On July 15 2011 17:48 Wesso wrote: Maybe Incontrol has some inside information, like TB asking more money than others for casting in large tournaments etc. Still strange to say such a thing randomly in an interview, and not at all the impression I have of TB.
I don't think I really need to get involved in this thread in a major way, the community has already made it's stance known and I thank them for that, but I can provide a little perspective on this one.
NASL paid $100 for my casting with Gretorp, for a 4-5 hour job. This is their "standard fee", I do not know what they paid everyone else. I accepted it and added it to the prizepool for SCI.
I spent a couple of thousand to get to Dreamhack, I was not paid for that event. I got VoD rights which meant I could recoup some of it over the course of several months, otherwise I paid my travel and accomodation, rented a car, brought my own gear and was asked to cast on the Dreamhack stream so they received the stream revenue.
As for the other tournaments, aside from IPL who have a tendency of paying everyone fairly, players included as you've seen from IPL's prize distribution, I've made a loss on every tournament I've casted, because it takes time away from doing other, more popular content. Just to clear up some outdated information by some folks, I stopped doing WoW content a couple of months ago because I was no longer enjoying the game. It was a big earner but I cut it entirely, specifically in protest at a move by Blizzard to appease bad players by nerfing the content I enjoyed. I believed this was a betrayal of their statement they made at the start of this expansion, that "Raiding is hard, man up and get better". My primary income at this point comes from my daily Mailbox gaming podcast, my WTF is? (by far the most popular series I do), Terraria and my League of Legends gameplays. Starcraft 2 remains a small portion of my income and as you all know, all my stream revenue funds tournaments so I don't see a dime of that.
One last thing for those with short memories.
- my first Starcraft 2 cast, on Day 1 of beta. As a sidenote of trivia, this cast was featured by Blizzard as a way to help people overcome their fear of getting into SC2.
- the day I became a Youtube partner, 6 months later. If you don't understand what that means, in order to get paid for any videos you do, you have to be a partner, so I wasn't earning anything at all from it before that. I think you can draw your own conclusions there.
I don't think anything else really needs to be addressed, others have said it for me. Look out for a special announcement coming very soon on the tournament side of things!
Incontrol, why are you so cynical?
I don't believe TB to be esport-Jesus but he takes a lot of undeserved crap from the community because of you. What's your motivation? Leave TB alone! *tears*
You two need to go on a playdate and get to know eachother and stop making statements based on ignorance. Shake hands and be friends. If not out of the kindness of your heart, do it to stop these stupid threads. You're both adults, intelligent adults, act like it.
Typical InControl, spewing uninformed bullshit the same moment someone 'criticizes' NASL and directly he goes defensive mode and switches topic and bashes on TotalBiscuit. I'll tell you what Incontrol, TotalBiscuit has done way more for the StarCraft community than you ever will. You're the one that's in it for the money.
On July 16 2011 06:50 Ocedic wrote: Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
LOL! What are you talking about, Totalbiscuit is so cool!! I was reading the start of this article and it came to my mind that if that Russ really is a genius, and he wants a great caster he should take Totalbiscuit for nasl season 2, and then i read on and i read what you are saying about Totalbiscuit... you are so lame that you are talking him down, will not root for you anymore thats for sure.
Everything has pretty much already been said regarding your comment on TB
However had you hired people (and not close friends) for NASL, had you hired people who have experience in different fields, NASL would have gone much smoother. Had you invited the best players instead of some of your friends from NA server, you would have a better tournament. Had you hired people...like TotalBiscuit, the man you are bashing, you would have probably had a better commentator team etc.
Good luck to you, it seems that many people in the community who even defended you for many months on various things (making fun of other peoples accent, watching a stream of GSL, trashing pretty much every player in the world, making fun of other tournaments and casters etc etc) but lately it seems that most have turned on you, and it is comments like these that really make you sound like a massive hypocrite.
On July 16 2011 06:50 Ocedic wrote: Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "Hitler was the greatest man to ever live," then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
Ahahahahahaha. Please close the thread now, that was perfect.
In norwegian we literally call that to Hitle the discussion.
I don't think you get his point. If you changed that sentence into something else that is ridiculous it has the same effect.
On July 16 2011 06:50 Ocedic wrote: Right, because people who are interviewed shouldn't be held accountable for what they say: as long as they say a lot of other stuff! If I had a 10,000 word interview, but in one sentence said "I'd like to do dirty stuff with little girls" then how dare you nitpick the one sentence.
It would have been the same effect. Just because he uses another sentence to make his point, doesn't mean he compares iNcontroL to Hitler...
Who the he'll isn't it in for the money at this point? MLG NASL and GOMtv are all not for profit organizations right?? Sending their profits to supply needy children with mechanical keyboards and graphic cards amirite?
EG or Mouz sends their players overseas purely to "further esports" right? Nothing about ROI, they only do it to make nerds sweat and smile... Hokay??
Who cares honestly. Not the most thought out statement by Inc IMO, but nothing to get so outraged by. Everyone should understand it's all ROI baby.
Everybody, casters players organizations, are in this amazing spot they are in today because there IS money to be made. Let's not get into WHY they are doing it but focus on the fact this scene is growing so rapidly we can hardly keep pace.
Never been a huge fan of incontrol, always found him to be "too big for his boots", but I tried to support him during NASL.
Seems as though he hasn't changed, always ends up having to apologise for stupid remarks, or bad performance. He needs to step away from any sort of community role, or any role at all in NASL and concentrate on playing.
On July 16 2011 07:49 relic wrote: Never been a huge fan of incontrol, always found him to be "too big for his boots", but I tried to support him during NASL.
Seems as though he hasn't changed, always ends up having to apologise for stupid remarks, or bad performance. He needs to step away from any sort of community role, or any role at all in NASL and concentrate on playing.
He is doing just this as far as I know. He is no longer part of the NASL production or SOTG and seems he is going to focus everything onto 1. practice and 2. his show with DJwheat once a week.
EPT
