-------Disclaimer-------- Don't diss SC2 here, this isn't a bm thread.
So, the unit I miss most is the valkyrie. This might come off as strange, people would say what of the dragoon with its horrible AI but the micro ability unseen in todays game, or what of the science vessel which could singlehandedly take down lurker after lurker with ease, or even the lurker/reaver units wihch were micro intensive.
fuck that
The valkyrie never saw its day, untill alas it was to late. The pro scene only got a glimpse of it, as SC2 was announced and interest dropped for new tactics such as the missile fury of the air superior valk.
So personally, I miss that girl, it would dominate in SC2 compared to the "viking" <--- pfft
EDIT: I forgot goliath, so if that is one that you wished for, vote for Vulture and we call it even
ADDED POLL (due to request)
Poll: Which unit do you miss most
Lurker (196)
33%
Reaver (143)
24%
Vulture (85)
14%
Arbiter (44)
7%
Defiler (42)
7%
Dragoon (23)
4%
Any old unit (hydra/zealot) thats been changed (19)
3%
scout/corsair (14)
2%
Valkyrie (9)
2%
zerg air (gaurdian etc.) (9)
2%
Firebat (8)
1%
Medic (7)
1%
599 total votes
Your vote: Which unit do you miss most
(Vote): Arbiter (Vote): Lurker (Vote): Defiler (Vote): Reaver (Vote): Dragoon (Vote): Valkyrie (Vote): Vulture (Vote): Any old unit (hydra/zealot) thats been changed (Vote): Firebat (Vote): Medic (Vote): scout/corsair (Vote): zerg air (gaurdian etc.)
Yes, I really loved the Lurker as well. Seeing swaths of marines die from walking in a line to a bunch of lurkers was always a joy to behold. Baneling mines are always nice, but I don't think they compare to watching stop lurkers haha.
On July 13 2011 03:25 babylon wrote: The hydra. =/
Honestly, I feel this way too. Other then the name and the way it looks it is just a completely different unit. The hydra was the core of Zerg in BW and many of us Zerg players miss it!
To really answer the question, I would have to say the defiler. The defiler is the perfect army support unit that Zerg seems to be lacking in SC2. I think Blizzard intended to make the infestor fit that role, but it just did not turn out that way (not that infestors aren't good, just different).
Vultures. They gave a dynamic of zoning and space control to the game that SC2 is pretty lacking of. I'd gladly trade hellions and reapers back for them.
Scourge ... I think it has it's place even in nowdays SC2. Just great unit all around. Mucho bang for your buck, but it requires skills too. And yes, I played Protoss and these buggers demolished my drops, but so what - I still love them.
Vulture, but you could add goliath and tank (the real thing that kills stuff, not the sc2 paper tank that makes more friendly fire than anything else).
The arbiter. Just because the mothership is an arbiter in shitty and for the noobs because it's supposed to be cool. Please neither lurker nor reaver in HotS, as much as i love them. They just don't fit, and that's okay.
Real zerglings, real hydras, lurker, defiler, scourge, vulture, goliath, real tanks that are powerful but don't automatically smartfire for your dumb ass, reaver, arbiter.
Blizzard did some awesome stuff for sc2, like creep mechanics, warpgate, and most of the terran stuff is cool, but the above are huge detriments to the game. Reavers used to require skill to use, and colossus are less potent, but automagic replacements that are just not as cool.
Vulture by far, I would probably consider switching to T for that single unit, shit was so cash. 2nd is lurker though, and you gotta have the reaver up there, dumbest unit ever.
On July 13 2011 03:43 Cosmos wrote: Vulture, but you could add goliath and tank (the real thing that kills stuff, not the sc2 paper tank that makes more friendly fire than anything else).
I miss all the micro intensive, high reward units that are a staple of high level play. That includes vultures, science vessels, lurkers, defilers, reavers and arbiters. 2 expansions to bring these back or make some units like them.
Also miss stackable air units, siege tanks that can actually do decent damage, cracklings, hydralisks that are mobile and a dragoon-type unit that can actually tank and dish decent damage.
Reavers put a fear in me that I can't find in sc2. I have dreams about them, and even though I hate them passionately, I still miss em + Show Spoiler +
On July 13 2011 03:59 ComaDose wrote: arbitersssssss + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muitsly5t6M
:D I love it every time this shows up. If any video is a must-watch for newcomers to tl, this should be it
On July 13 2011 03:39 clickrush wrote: arbiterssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
but that dont matter, i just need to get more pylons up so I can build more arbitersss. I'ma let all these units die and then I'm gonna get some more arbitersss, and after I get more arbitersss I'm going to recall arbitersss into arbiterssssstatuss arbiterss
Dude I miss the Zealot. The real Zealot. He was so pimpin the way he walked (strutted) up to an enemy unit and whipped out its hoe slappin lightsabers.
I wasn't much of a Terran player in BW, but didn't valkyries like fucking bug out so as they wouldn't even attack after their initial missile? Happened to me when I played.
I miss lurkers, obviously. Not sure how they'd fare in sc2, given the hydralisk being a really awful unit. Here's what I miss most: whatever the roach morphs into.
probably the medic or ghost. i like lockdown a lot, and the medics were great because they could be used as shields for marines, making position play a lot more rewarding.
I would like to echo the complaints about SC2 not having Hydralisks. I want my 1 food Hydras that cost 75/25 and have a speed, range, and lurker upgrade.
On July 13 2011 04:13 ampson wrote: scout so cool. yay scout. SCOUT! Not really though, I like all the replacements that were made.. except the SCOUT, the best unit in any game ever.
I'm honestly glad the Reaver doesn't exist in SC2. Don't get me wrong, I loved doing/watching Reaver-Shuttle micro. But it just doesn't show an improvement of unit performance if the Reaver still existed in SC2 (scarab firing depending on ground pathing, hence, no high ground advantage, etc.)
But the one thing Blizzard downgraded so much was the Mothership. In no way is it the successor to the Arbiter. I don't give a flying rat's ass about the vortex. Stasis field is far superior.
Thank god mech doesn't exist in SC2. <3
Some other things I miss: Science vessels, Defilers, the speed of BW Carriers (WHY BLIZZ WHY DID YOU MAKE THEM SLOWER ;A;), Vultures, and Medics.
Reavers/Lurkers/Vultures. It's basically a form of area denial that SC2 units lack. There are equivalents in SC2 (And I actually prefer SC2 to BW) but these 3 all helped tactical developments with each race, as each had the capability to do more damage than they were worth, or do almost no damage at all.
This is such a brutal thread, damn. So many great units from BW that didn't make it to SC2. Can we add the unit's sounds though as an option? like for real how badass was the drone/hydra spit audio? and the deep bass of the siege tank shots? Just not the same
but I wish I had Valkyries and Vultures back. Also spidermines as an extension of the Vulture
Gateway units. The Units coming out of Gateways in SC2 are just rubbish and should belong to Terran or Zerg. In SC:BW goons and Zealots were core army units and a force to reckon with all game long that were supported and backed up by reavers or HTs. In SC2 gateway units are meatshields and support for HTs and Colossi.
And I miss the Archon. That joke of a unit in SC2 that stole its name is something different.
Defilers - Prevented 1a balls clashing and the game ending Siege Tanks that are actually good - Prevented 1a balls clashing and the game ending Arbiters - Used to break through siege lines, prevented 1a balls clashing and the game ending Medics - Rewarded smart positional play with your M&M, required dropships of their own to carry them, was just more interesting overall. Lurkers - Made the game a lot more exciting, better than baneling bombs. Scourge - Made drops a lot riskier, makes for exciting viewing Science Vessels - Better in every way than the Raven Vultures - For spider mines, they were also fun to watch Reavers - Colossi are lame noskill replacements
Basically Blizz just needs to make SC2 more like Brood War. A lot more like Brood War.
You could mind control an SCV or drone and get a whole other supply limit. Imagine the possibilities. But seriously, the dark archon was such a cool unit that never got used almost ever.
And more importantly, Dark Templars merging to form regular archons just doesn't make any damn sense plot-wise.
On July 13 2011 03:46 Kenpachi wrote: How can you miss the lurker . . . you guys got banelings and infestors -_-
I miss the reaver and vulture
I'm happy with banes over lurker. Why? Speaks for itself... so cute >.>
BW Zerg was not cute. Thats why BW Z > SC2 Z. Also i'd trade banelings and infestors for lurkers anyday.
Yeah, I like BW Zerg. I don't play Zerg myself but I really like the race, it's so unique. The raw and scary sounds BW Zerg has is so cool and Blizzard made a huge blunder about that one in SC2. Zerg in SC2 don't even have sounds, or do they? Only thing I remember when I tested out Zerg when I picked up Sc2 recently was the "Spawn more overlords!!" >_>
And the models of zerg buildings and most of the units aint even frightening, and thats what I feel Zerg should be, frightening not "cute".
On July 13 2011 03:41 MrBitter wrote: Scourge!!!!
Defilers were great, but they would completely break SC2.
Lurkers were also awesome, and I'd love to see them come back.
Also miss arbiters, reavers, vultures and science vessels.....
BW was such an incredible game.
Was? You write like if SCBW was erased from the earth.
I feel like if you are playing Terran in Sc2 you are some what linear in your way of playing. Sure, you have great ways to harrass but the "core" of just marine and tanks in TvZ and bio in TvP is kinda boring. I would like to have Vultures to change that some what, or have the Raven changed a little bit too be able to put out some sort of mines if you research it or something.
I both love and hate the medivacs. I think it's great in a way to be able to both pickup, drop and heal with one unit but the other part of me can't stand how annoying and ugly it is to have flying dropships over your head healing your bio, and when you a-move your troops somewhere and your medivacs cuts som corners to fly over cliffs and right into a group of stalkers or something I hate them so much . And bio with Medics in BW just looks so sexy. ^^
But yeah, if I could put in one unit and remove one I would trade the Vulture against Hellion and hope for some kind of switch in gameplay and hope Blizzard would make mech viable.
It seems just wrong and ruins the lore for me to see two dark templar merge into a regular archon. Seems like the infestor sort of has the dark archons spells from broodwar, but I miss this unit SO much and it seems like no one ever talks about it coming back in sc2.
Numbers 1, 2, and 3, are all the tier 2 position defense units that made SC1 the great game is it. If Blizzard adds units like this in Heart of the Swarm, it will be a better game than even SC2.
On July 13 2011 04:13 ampson wrote: scout so cool. yay scout. SCOUT! Not really though, I like all the replacements that were made.. except the SCOUT, the best unit in any game ever.
On July 13 2011 04:28 MCDayC wrote: Reavers/Lurkers/Vultures. It's basically a form of area denial that SC2 units lack. There are equivalents in SC2 (And I actually prefer SC2 to BW) but these 3 all helped tactical developments with each race, as each had the capability to do more damage than they were worth, or do almost no damage at all.
They also don't need to do damage at all for them to do their job. Sometimes, these units are just meant to delay your opponent while you harass. The only thing comparable is the sentry but waiting 15 seconds is not as dynamic as having to slowly clear using detection.
Area of denial is sorely needed. Even the siege tank feels so weak compared to the old one.
On July 13 2011 05:06 jongzor wrote: cracklings not being t3
What game did you play where that wasnt the case?!
Personally the Reaver takes this easily. Switch the collo for reaver and Protoss might actually be enjoyable to watch and play.
Also, why did you say that strats arent being developed anymore since SC2 was announced in the OP? That is utter bullshit and should be edited out if you as you say dont want to start a flamewar.
Where is the option for an engineering bay that flies?
Edit: non-building unit I miss the most are spider mines. Not necessarily the vulture, but if you gave hellions a spider mine upgrade that'd be sweet
(it'd be more balanced for reapers to get a spider mine upgrade since then it would actually cost gas for minefields--but that's neither cool nor nostalgic)
On July 13 2011 04:28 MCDayC wrote: Reavers/Lurkers/Vultures. It's basically a form of area denial that SC2 units lack. There are equivalents in SC2 (And I actually prefer SC2 to BW) but these 3 all helped tactical developments with each race, as each had the capability to do more damage than they were worth, or do almost no damage at all.
They also don't need to do damage at all for them to do their job. Sometimes, these units are just meant to delay your opponent while you harass. The only thing comparable is the sentry but waiting 15 seconds is not as dynamic as having to slowly clear using detection.
Area of denial is sorely needed. Even the siege tank feels so weak compared to the old one.
Yup. It's the threat that is important. To be honest, I think that is basically all SC2 needs to become almost perfect.
The arbiter ahead of the defiler? lolwut. If I had a choice between the lurker and the defiler, I'd choose the defiler every single time.The lurker added a ton of good positional play in the mid-game, but the defiler actually gave zerg something to change up their play significantly at Hive tech. It also allowed them to change a lose/lose turtling situation (which you see many many times in SC2) into a situation where you could actually attack and not lose your entire army while killing only 3 enemy units.
I miss the vulture the least by far, i still have nightmares where they micro around and slowly destroy everthing, so i voted for it really i miss the current top 5 and hydras/speed zeals also goliath and valk zerg airs very similar to what it was, cant belive you took goliath out to put that in :/
I would like the Reaver and Vulture just to make Terran/Protoss more interesting instead of the Hellion and Colossus. However, I think Zerg needs the Lurker the most because Zerg lacks a unit that benefits from defensive terrain. Fungal Growth might need to be nerfed to a slowing spell if they would add the Lurker though.
I miss the corsair. I know the pheonix is awesome and everything, but the corsair is just so much more awesome. Disabling attacks under a disruption web > lifting a unit imo
@Below hey TT1.
We also need the shuttle back in place of this warp prism
Scourge, would make TvZ a lot more interesting. Zerg players are just forced to eventually go mutas in order to defend against drops. Makes this matchup kinda boring eventually.
On July 13 2011 04:28 MCDayC wrote: Reavers/Lurkers/Vultures. It's basically a form of area denial that SC2 units lack. There are equivalents in SC2 (And I actually prefer SC2 to BW) but these 3 all helped tactical developments with each race, as each had the capability to do more damage than they were worth, or do almost no damage at all.
They also don't need to do damage at all for them to do their job. Sometimes, these units are just meant to delay your opponent while you harass. The only thing comparable is the sentry but waiting 15 seconds is not as dynamic as having to slowly clear using detection.
Area of denial is sorely needed. Even the siege tank feels so weak compared to the old one.
Yup. It's the threat that is important. To be honest, I think that is basically all SC2 needs to become almost perfect.
There was a *really* damn good post on here a few months back from someone speaking about mobile static defense. He wrote fluidly and had a very well thought out argument for the need of units like the lurker and siege tank.
The sheer defense/offense siege abilities of those two units alone have such finely nuanced effects, it always makes me feel like the game was built around a story with people saying "How can we, in a video game, represent what this would be?" rather than the mindset of "This is the 'glass cannon', this is the 'tank', this is the 'dps."
It even branches forward to other areas but, that's not what this topic is about and I'm sorry to derail as much as I did.
I miss, out of everything, the reaver. It always seemed like such an awkward unit in the Protoss arsenal. It's slow, where the race is mobile. It's clunky looking, where everything else looks so sleek. What it was, was an unstoppable powerhouse though. One blast from those things could create a pool of blood and then what the pros did with it...some of the reaver/shuttle micro I've seen in the years have easily been the best moments of watching pro SC in my life.
On July 13 2011 05:34 57 Corvette wrote: I miss the corsair. I know the pheonix is awesome and everything, but the corsair is just so much more awesome. Disabling attacks under a disruption web > lifting a unit imo
@Below hey TT1.
We also need the shuttle back in place of this warp prism
Not to mention that a unit that is specifically air to air having a magic gravity beam seems completely ass-backwards to a technology advanced race. In the time it took to make/design such a complex beam weapon...it could have just shot down too.
I get that feeling with so many units in SC II. It's like the mythos is scrapped because units need to fill roles. Which, in turn, makes the unit roles awkward and very, very different to what I'd expect. Ahhh..I'm doing it again. My b
Being a zerg player, I really miss defiler and lurker, but Terran with science vessels would be sick. I've always played my ZvTs really muta heavy, even in brood war, but this was easily stopped by SVs. Thors kind of stop mutas, but only if the numbers are low. Marines, of course, beat mutas alone, but when you throw in other units and counters and everything - mutas just win i.e. dongraegu.
Lurker and defiler. Nothing like watching a pack of units flee in terror from the spines!!
There's no real threat in going into a zerg base in SC2. Lurkers would create that awesome scare tactic, not knowing if you're about to get blasted to bits while you're running.
Also, burrowed blings aren't used enough to be that scary.
On July 13 2011 03:30 HyperionDreamer wrote: Defiler, nothing else. Why has no zerg said this yet?
Because Defiler with auto-cast would be too strong.
I don't think auto cast would be too much of an issue as you have to consume between every spell anyways so the micro would still be there.
I think Banelings however would make dark swarm very OP, even ultras might too because of splash. Lurkers were the only melee unit that did splash before and you'd have to burrow them under the swarm, giving time to reposition. Banelings would just get not killed at all by tank/marine.
On July 13 2011 04:28 MCDayC wrote: Reavers/Lurkers/Vultures. It's basically a form of area denial that SC2 units lack. There are equivalents in SC2 (And I actually prefer SC2 to BW) but these 3 all helped tactical developments with each race, as each had the capability to do more damage than they were worth, or do almost no damage at all.
They also don't need to do damage at all for them to do their job. Sometimes, these units are just meant to delay your opponent while you harass. The only thing comparable is the sentry but waiting 15 seconds is not as dynamic as having to slowly clear using detection.
Area of denial is sorely needed. Even the siege tank feels so weak compared to the old one.
Yup. It's the threat that is important. To be honest, I think that is basically all SC2 needs to become almost perfect.
Yeah. The amount of base trades and sitting armies at the natural drives me crazy. These units let you leave your base and slows down your opponent long enough for you to respond. It also encourages people to defend their bases rather than rushing an opponent's to base trade.
On July 13 2011 05:34 57 Corvette wrote: I miss the corsair. I know the pheonix is awesome and everything, but the corsair is just so much more awesome. Disabling attacks under a disruption web > lifting a unit imo
@Below hey TT1.
We also need the shuttle back in place of this warp prism
Not to mention that a unit that is specifically air to air having a magic gravity beam seems completely ass-backwards to a technology advanced race. In the time it took to make/design such a complex beam weapon...it could have just shot down too.
I know, right. If you can lift up a unit high in the air, wouldn't the fastest, most efficient way of killing it be just simply releasing it and let gravity take care of it?
I miss lurkers, but both speedbanes and infestors are suitable replacements.
I know this thread's about units, but I really miss the creep colonies. You could morph it into whatever you needed when the push was coming. Cost-efficient and versatile.
On July 13 2011 05:55 lorkac wrote: In defense of the Phoenix. Wasn't the original point of it be to explode? Or even lift off units so that they'd be close to the Phoenix exploding?
Then the explosion was removed and all we have is the lift ability?
yeah it was supposed to overload and to aoe damage to air around it then be weak afterwards for a while that turned out to equal full air dominance once you had a few so they had to change it
for all this smart cast defiler stuff, the reaver ai was patched to be stupider in BW because it was OP imagine SC2 AI on those things...
I mean, we have an arbiter-like unit, but you can only make one, it's huge, it's really resource-heavy, and it's a slowpoke.
If we had arbiters, we could mass recall into the main, do a bunch of damage, then mass recall out (or into another base!) with another arbiter when the opponent finally gets there.
But nope, just one mothership, and it takes 8 supply too.
SC2: Classic, a mix of sc2 and bw. will start working on it today
mule/chrono/queen will stay marauder/immortal/banshee/void/roach will stay hel = vult reaper = firebat col = reaver ms = arbitor bane = scourge lurker pheonix = corsair thor = goliath viking = valk muta morph into devour and broodlord w/ gs. raven = vs darchon w/ mc and maelstrom (no feedback)
just what i can conjure up atm. will work on full list today after work. exciting!
The vulture for sure. It was a unit that benefited immensely from good micro. Like the old mutalisk, it even had its own little technique for moving shots. Spider mines encouraged intelligent, positional play while also making for spectacular moments like exploding in a mineral line, mine drags or zealot bombs. Being the fastest unit in the game, vultures were also great for run-bys and raiding unprotected remote expansions. For such flexibility, the price of merely 75 minerals was laughable if you think about it and made the vulture extremely cost efficient. In the hands of a skilled player, that is. The hellion, in comparison, is weak and bland.
Close behind: The defiler, a spellcaster with three totally imbalanced abilities that still somehow worked out fine, and the reaver, a unit which required intense babysitting to tap its huge potential.
I went with Zerg air just because I miss scourge the most hehe. I feel like most other units have some equivalent unit in SC2, obviously nothing is exact but there are similaritiess and the units filled essentially the same roll.... i just want something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to take care of drops i swear.
OP you are hugely mistaken about valks. although not the most common unit, recently theyre being used in most tvts and theyve always been a unit you would see from time to time in tvz. Not to mention you're completely 100% wrong in saying that interest for new tactics has died down. Anyways, to stay on topic, mine would be the reaver because they're one of the hardest units to micro properly and when you do its really satisfying. And they make cool noises
There are quite a few units from bw that I feel nostalgic about, but there is one unit that I enjoy not seeing anymore: Dragoon So happy that it was replaced with a unit that doesn't bug out constantly -.-
arbiter and reaver! mothership is an ugly pile of un fun and useless scrap metal. arbiters were the most awesome thing ever! STASIS! CLOAK! RECALL! so awesome <//3 my heart is broken by its absence. I was gutted when i learned they werent putting it in, and im still gutted now that its not in
I immediately thought Goliath would be the overwhelming answer. I didn't even play Terran, but that seems to be the big gap in unit roles from SC1 to SC2.
Vultures were the best. Super fast, moves anywhere, wipes out entire worker lines in seconds. THREE mini-nukes for just 75 minerals. You need detection just to engage them! Hellions are just lame and cheesy with their pathetic flamethrowers that have to hit from the side and need upgrades just to do decent damage.
Corsair. It was so awesome how half the resources worth of corsairs would take out a group of mutas, compared to now where you just need soooooo many phoenixes to counter mutas and it's not worth it so you pretty much always get blink stalkers or storm to counter.
Defiler takes the cake though. It looked so imba on paper, but it lead to such high level play on both sides.
i voted zerg air, because scourge/devourer had way more personality and better design than dull and boring corruptors, imo. broodlords are cool (not talking about balance), a nice replacement for guardians
Def the lurker though a couple of those in well placed spots changed the game. Added so mo much micro to you and your opponent and led to some pretty epic battles.
On July 13 2011 09:48 Ryusei-R1 wrote: Defiler would make zerg OP beyond any doubt, so Lurker is the only reasonable choice.
Don't really see how given fungal has stun and comes out at lair tech, also it would balance late game ZvP. What frustrates me most is that in every matchup its like one race has to kill the other before it gets too strong.
Is mech a unit ? :> I really miss whole mech play, and I don't think spider mines would make mech as good as bio is in Sc2 as the way it is balanced (well, at least those spider mines we have at campaign lol).
EPT
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