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On July 12 2011 20:27 Morfildur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 20:09 Frankon wrote:On July 12 2011 20:09 Morfildur wrote:On July 12 2011 19:49 Thrombozyt wrote:
I cannot help but compare HSCIII and NASL finals. Both ran for 3 days with 16 player and were casted from one computer.
Now compare the viewer experience... and have the season 2 finals in Take's flat! How many live viewers did HSC3 have? More than NASL on free stream only Uhm, live viewer means "person physically attending the event, getting autographs and photos with the stars", not "sitting at home in his room watching it on a stream"... I doubt you could even fit a hundred people into Takes flat. Also, NASL Finals had 85'000 consecutive streamviewers when i checked them, which is IMHO quite impressive. Sadly NASL took place at an impossible time where i had to stop watching because it got too late and i had to go to work the next day. EDIT(Clarification): Producing a show with only online viewers is _a lot_ easier than producing a show with a big stage. You need a ton more people, hardware and space. Even I could do a show at home, inviting a few pros over, connecting a webcam and cheap 50€ camera to my PC and streaming it... but a big event is something totally different.
OK, it seems like I have to clarify:
I do not want to suggest, that the venue was bad, but rather that the format of HSCIII was vastly superior to the NASL final. Simply because you could have non-stop games AND pros had multiple chances to recover (one could go though with 1 BO3 loss in group and then lose once in the playoff). Also with a group stage, you could use the season performance as primary tie break which means that the season matches gain additional importance. It also means that you have WAY MORE GAMES, increasing spectator value and sponsor exposure. All this without increasing the time needed or even the technical setup (HSCIII was one stream and one casting desk only).
Comparison:
HSCIII:
16 players, 3 days, 1 stream, 24 (group) + 7 (winner brackets) + 5 (loser brackets) + 1 (grandfinal) = 37 BoX matches, a player can lose twice and still win the tourney
NASL:
16 players, 3 days, 1 stream, 15 BoX matches, a player has to win every match straight
HSCIII had more than twice the game content.
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I probably should not post on this anymore since there is enough feedback on the league already.
I've gone from being baffled by the PR to being...indifferent and as Greatorp likes to say "disgusted" (but in the actual sense of the word)
Trying to shift the focus of the community with BS like "this was a show not a LAN" ...
Fault the players for the delays...really? A couple of drivers that should have been pre-installed anyway...
Yeah, i sound like a hater i know. All the technical things can be fixed, the public NASL stance though, hopeless...
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On July 12 2011 21:16 Sapphire.lux wrote:
I probably should not post on this anymore since there is enough feedback on the league already.
I've gone from being baffled by the PR to being...indifferent and as Greatorp likes to say "disgusted" (but in the actual sense of the word)
Trying to shift the focus of the community with BS like "this was a show not a LAN" ...
Fault the players for the delays...really? A couple of drivers that should have been pre-installed anyway...
Yeah, i sound like a hater i know. All the technical things can be fixed, the public NASL stance though, hopeless...
I agree about faulting the players for delays. Especially outing individual players like that.
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I can deal with all the technical issues, I can live with the format.
But please for the love of god don't make us wait 1+ hours between matches, and PLEASE don't show the same (extremely long) player intro video before each time said player has to play.
Congratulations on a (fairly) succesfull season 1, it was truly an amazing final (SO INTENSE!!!) and I look forward to an improved season 2 with more great games 
ps. please get Lindsey Sporrer back to do interviews, that stuff was hilarious.
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On July 12 2011 21:09 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 20:27 Morfildur wrote:On July 12 2011 20:09 Frankon wrote:On July 12 2011 20:09 Morfildur wrote:On July 12 2011 19:49 Thrombozyt wrote:
I cannot help but compare HSCIII and NASL finals. Both ran for 3 days with 16 player and were casted from one computer.
Now compare the viewer experience... and have the season 2 finals in Take's flat! How many live viewers did HSC3 have? More than NASL on free stream only Uhm, live viewer means "person physically attending the event, getting autographs and photos with the stars", not "sitting at home in his room watching it on a stream"... I doubt you could even fit a hundred people into Takes flat. Also, NASL Finals had 85'000 consecutive streamviewers when i checked them, which is IMHO quite impressive. Sadly NASL took place at an impossible time where i had to stop watching because it got too late and i had to go to work the next day. EDIT(Clarification): Producing a show with only online viewers is _a lot_ easier than producing a show with a big stage. You need a ton more people, hardware and space. Even I could do a show at home, inviting a few pros over, connecting a webcam and cheap 50€ camera to my PC and streaming it... but a big event is something totally different. OK, it seems like I have to clarify: I do not want to suggest, that the venue was bad, but rather that the format of HSCIII was vastly superior to the NASL final. Simply because you could have non-stop games AND pros had multiple chances to recover (one could go though with 1 BO3 loss in group and then lose once in the playoff). Also with a group stage, you could use the season performance as primary tie break which means that the season matches gain additional importance. It also means that you have WAY MORE GAMES, increasing spectator value and sponsor exposure. All this without increasing the time needed or even the technical setup (HSCIII was one stream and one casting desk only). Comparison: HSCIII: 16 players, 3 days, 1 stream, 24 (group) + 7 (winner brackets) + 5 (loser brackets) + 1 (grandfinal) = 37 BoX matches, a player can lose twice and still win the tourney NASL: 16 players, 3 days, 1 stream, 15 BoX matches, a player has to win every match straight HSCIII had more than twice the game content.
Maybe we just see everything differently, for me it's:
NASL, 50 players, 9 weeks, 1 stream, a lot of Bo3 matches in the group stages and the final rounds. In the group stages, players can lose 1-2 matches and still get to the Ro16. Also, the open tournament with i don't know how many matches.
Also:
Some games of the final 15 Bo3s casted by tastosis while you can hear and watch the hundreds or thousands of live viewers (i.e. physically there) cheer for their stars. The watery eyes of PuMa when hundreds of fans chant his name...
It's just a totally different kind of tournament and in no way comparable to such a small event like HSC3. If you have one PC, one Camera and a handful of people sitting around having some relaxed fun it's really not hard to have a production with no problems.
Yes, the format of NASL might be improved to double elimination, but actually all those players _had_ several chances to lose a game or two without "losing" the tournament. Only the finals were unforgiving.
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The Koreans, those who you didn't want "too many of them" at the beginning of the league saved your tourney from disaster with amazing games.
Also, the league that lasted for months was completely useless, the guy who started playing the NASL in the last week via open bracket won it all. But what do you expect, when you base your tournament off invitations from video interviews..
TLDR: OPEN BRACKET, ZERO INVITATIONS
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Nice post Xeris. My only recommendation, like several others have mentioned, would be to improve your website to better disseminate league information both for the finals and throughout the regular season. Also, I would reevaluate how the written coverage content on the site is done. If news was not on the front page, rarely did I actually click the news link and scroll down to find the latest news on the site. If you are committed to providing content on the nasl.tv website, I would allow more of it to be shown, perhaps with a general section and then a section for each division, as well as clearly dated so people know what content is new and what is old. Also, I would suggest a more regular content schedule instead of articles every couple of days on various topics. Things like a weekly roundup and preview for each division would be a great start (I know some of this was done, but more consistency week to week would be best).
Overall though, I'm impressed with the progress you guys have made this season. Keep up the good work and I look forward to Season 2.
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Great answer to the community but there were some things you missed out on:
Tastosis and Day9 problem
Before the finals NASL hyped it up and told the communtiy that Tastosis and Day9 were going to cast the finals. When the finals then were played people got dissapointed when they get to see Gretorp and iNcontroL cast the games. People didn't get dissapointed because of their casting skills, people got dissapointed because they had looked forward to see Tastosis and Day9 cast. I understand 100% that you wanted Gretorp and iNcontroL to be a part of the finals as well since all their work they had put down into the league, but you should have been clear about it when you told the community you invited other casters to cast.
Tastosis and Day9 solution
Make it clear who are going to cast what games before the event start or stick to your own casters and don't invite other casters.
Format problem
Bo3 was bad and you said it was going to change to Bo5 for the next time. You then defend your use of single elimination by saying "That is how everyone else does it". Even if many other LAN tournaments does it I don't see why it should be used if double elimination is possible to fit in.
Other LANs have their group plays at the events and this takes up one or two days of the event. Because of this they might have problems to fit the double elimination in a three days LAN tournament. NASL do not got this problem at all since you have the group stages played months before the finals.
Single elimination is bad for a game like SC2 where a lucky build choice can make a bad player beat a much better one.
Format solution:
- Double elimination, bo5.
- Upper bracket is played on stage, lower bracket is played off stage.
- Play upper and lower brackets simultaneously.
- Upper bracket is being casted and lower brackets are being casted when it is possible. Keep an observer in those games and when there is time to show some from the lower brackets then just put that game on the stream.
Sound issues
There were sound issues through the whole tournament and not just before the first brake.
Sound solution
You probably know the solution yourself and I'm sure it will be better the next time.
On July 12 2011 20:40 andytb wrote:I posted here so I shall tl;dr > Run the next event in a pre-fitted auditorium (looks cooler, nicer seating) > If you're broadcasting every game there's no need to schedule for a 'worst case' game length, schedules are always subject to change or run late > GJ with the hype videos (shame you had to repeat them), with Lindsey, with post game interviews > Sound problems will be self apparent when you watch back the event VoDs. You'll cringe when you realise what was going out.
I support this 100%.
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Out of your whole post, Xeris, the only blame I see assigned is on the players. This is really disgraceful. Nobody has been complaining about the slight delays supposedly caused by players (or rather your inability to properly accommodate their needs and use time efficiently). The overwhelming majority of downtime had nothing to do with player's setting up.
The sound was never fixed and you were having problems right up until and including the final winner interview. I'm not sure if you are trying to deceive people who didn't see it themselves or if you actually are just ignorant of how bad your production was.
Your refusal to take any shred of responsibility for your screwups does not inspire any confidence in NASL.
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The discounted HD pass for the weekend was a mission to find out about.
had to find about it on IRC, it was 10$ when it said 25$. A little promotion about the weekend HD pass would be nice.
I feel like i got robbed, since i bought it for 15$ like a week earlier with the discount code since i didn't know there was even going to be a HD pass for the weekend for 10$. i'm not even going to watch the VODs for the regular league play.
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I'm surprised that bumping the grand final up 2 1/2 hours from the posted schedule has not been mentioned as much as other concerns, because that was dirty pool. I planned to attend the finals at a bar (the Toronto event), arriving at the posted time. By that time, however, they were already over.
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First of all iam only able to say something about the Finals - dunno about the group matches since i barely watched them.
Well the most obvious parts were already mentioned so i skip to the more specific things:
- camera guy: on the mainstage he was clearly adjusting the position of the camera while on stream. like when the casters started to talk about the next match after a break and the view switched to the mainstage camera he pan the camera left and right to fix the view to the casters - little thing but still unprofessional and you normaly dont even see that at rather unorganized events
- cocaster audio: i dont know if i was imagining it but it seemed that iNcontroL's sound volume was really low at most of the time - i could barely understand him
- cointerviewer/translator audio: it seemed like the microphone was muted at the beginning of each interview with koreans. Therefore the translation of the answer to the first question of an interview wasnt broadcasted on the stream.
- pausescreen between matches: well there isnt much to say just that a estimated start time of the next game would be awesome and helpful
That about it - Im glad you saw the obvious problems and try to avoid them next time - also i could difinitely see a difference between day 1 and the final!
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I'd like to better understand why 1-3pm during the week was the selected time to play matches. As this is a North American league, it pretty much ensures no one with a FT job can play. Are there any plans to fix this? Sure, it's so Europeans & Koreans can play too, but shouldn't the focus be on making it as easy as possible for NA players?
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Wow, people on here can be brutal. I just wanted to add in... I loved the event.
As far as the 360 --> 480 change. Totally logical. 480 is a good enough quality to not drive the viewer to want something more. On full screen, the difference between 480 and 720 or higher is not that big for me. However, with it being 360, it made me consider buying a ticket (I thought about it...). People on here need to realize that the nasl needs to make money to keep doing events. Let them make some money!! It's not "greedy," it's business. YOU have the choice of buying or not.
Single-elimination: Look at all the major sporting events... Look at Tennis, NFL, etc... I think logistically for a LAN, it's better. It also makes cheese SO much more controversial, and makes it a much bigger deal to the players, which makes it a much bigger deal to the viewer too
As far as people angry and trying to play the blame game, I think your original post was respectable and exactly what you needed to say. Don't dwell on mistakes, just move on. Most people are just nitpicking because they're used to TV-like, seamless production quality... which isn't possible if you don't have a massive NBC budget.
I feel like you all learned a LOT from this season, and I can't WAIT to see what you can bring next season. I feel like next season, the scheduling, timings, transitions, and quality are all going to keep getting better.
To the haters, manner up, this is their first time around. GO ESPORTS AND NASL!
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On July 12 2011 21:37 Gurblechev wrote:
Out of your whole post, Xeris, the only blame I see assigned is on the players. This is really disgraceful. Nobody has been complaining about the slight delays supposedly caused by players (or rather your inability to properly accommodate their needs and use time efficiently). The overwhelming majority of downtime had nothing to do with player's setting up.
The sound was never fixed and you were having problems right up until and including the final winner interview. I'm not sure if you are trying to deceive people who didn't see it themselves or if you actually are just ignorant of how bad your production was.
Your refusal to take any shred of responsibility for your screwups does not inspire any confidence in NASL.
Xeris has been known to be very ignorant and blame others for his mistakes. What's the big deal with Moon plugging his own mouse/keyboard? Or why are DarkForce's mouse drivers "obscure"?
These players probably caused 10-20 minutes delays, but we're talking about bigger delays which he didn't addressed.
To sum up his post: first season sucked, luckily the final games saved us, we promise to get better next season (which I doubt will happen).
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On July 12 2011 21:44 -ForeverAlone- wrote:
I'd like to better understand why 1-3pm during the week was the selected time to play matches. As this is a North American league, it pretty much ensures no one with a FT job can play. Are there any plans to fix this? Sure, it's so Europeans & Koreans can play too, but shouldn't the focus be on making it as easy as possible for NA players?
Actually this time is awful for koreans too, they have to play at very late hours during night.
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On July 12 2011 21:48 Pheo wrote:
Wow, people on here can be brutal. I just wanted to add in... I loved the event.
As far as the 360 --> 480 change. Totally logical. 480 is a good enough quality to not drive the viewer to want something more. On full screen, the difference between 480 and 720 or higher is not that big for me. However, with it being 360, it made me consider buying a ticket (I thought about it...). People on here need to realize that the nasl needs to make money to keep doing events. Let them make some money!!
As far as people angry and trying to play the blame game, I think your original post was respectable and exactly what you needed to say. Don't dwell on mistakes, just move on. Most people are just nitpicking because they're used to TV-like, seamless production quality.
I feel like you all learned a LOT from this season, and I can't WAIT to see what you can bring next season.
To the haters, manner up, this is their first time around. GO ESPORTS AND NASL!
Manner up? Some seem to think that criticism and people being annoyed by all the pauses, issues and schedule errors are bad for the scene. Companies that don't deliver on what they promise/what the consumer expects will get complaints. People don't do this out of spite but because they want improvements or they've paid for a service that's below par.
We're definitely aware that there were problems along the way. We're not perfect but I can promise everyone that we are motivated and improving daily. We hope that our regular season and Finals showcased this. We didn't start off great, but the end of the regular season was lightyears better than the beginning. The Finals started off rough, but ended with a bang. Know that we're going to ride this momentum and make sure that Season 2 is phenomenal.
Regardless of all the haters (even from prominent members of the community, which is pretty disappointing to me), we're going to keep plugging away.
This part is weird and a bit misleading too.
Saying the finals started of rough but ended in a bang is more or less totally based on the level of play in the MC vs Puma game. The sound was still totally weird in the final game, camera on Gretorp/Incontrol was amateurish, the game wasn't played at the designated time and the interview missed at least two questions due to the translator mic being off (as it was EVERY single time i watched a korean interview).
Also calling community members haters is also a bit much. Seems like the NASL guys have no idea how to approach PR. If Xeris had ended on a note more like "the finals were a bumpy road but a great final match saved the day. We're dedicated to providing more games of that caliber with improved production value and less downtime in season 2." i think people would be fully supportive.
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On July 12 2011 21:55 cyclone25 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 21:44 -ForeverAlone- wrote:
I'd like to better understand why 1-3pm during the week was the selected time to play matches. As this is a North American league, it pretty much ensures no one with a FT job can play. Are there any plans to fix this? Sure, it's so Europeans & Koreans can play too, but shouldn't the focus be on making it as easy as possible for NA players? Actually this time is awful for koreans too, they have to play at very late hours during night.
Good point actually, hadn't even thought about that. Basically it's only good for EUR... that seems really illogical, especially as there are enough EUR tournaments already.
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I'm glad to see you guys are taking steps in the right direction, NASL has always been a really ambitious project and even though there's been a lot of problems and some poor decisions, the games made up for it in the end. As far as constructive criticism, there's a few things I could point out:
-More professionals, fewer friends/roommates/girlfriends...I'm glad to see you've hired more (professional) editors, and hiring a sound engineer would also be a huge step in the right direction.
-It's probably not feasible in the short term, but looking into an alternative to jtv may be wise. MLG and GSL both use their own streaming/VOD services/programs, and honestly jtv's servers aren't really equipped to handle 80,000 people streaming 360 or 1080p at once. They've done a lot for the sc2 community but their platform isn't always the best way to handle HUGE events.
-Guest casters! It was great to see Tastosis and Day9 at the finals but they were hardly used as much as they could've been, I understand having inc/gretorp casting the finals, but if you're going to fly in serious talent from S. Korea, at least let them do interviews or between-game commentary. Also, guest casters during the regular season was a great idea and I'd encourage more of it (and give Gretorp a break now and then haha, dude casted like a madman for months).
-Rehearsal. I honestly think 95% of the problems with the live stream would've been resolved or seriously minimized with a few hours of practice the night before. I realize the venue had to be set up on an extremely strict schedule, but it's nigh inexcusable for a $100,000 live event to have as many production issues as NASL did on day one. Same deal with MLG Dallas, we gave them a lot of shit for it and they came back HUGE in Columbus, I'd love to see the same thing with NASL S2.
I'm really looking forward to season 2, especially with the injection of more Korean talent from the qualifiers...the finals was a sick event in terms of the games and everything, best of luck to you guys going into the next season!
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On July 12 2011 21:55 karpo wrote:
Manner up? Some seem to think that criticism and people being annoyed by all the pauses, issues and schedule errors are bad for the scene. Companies that don't deliver on what they promise/what the consumer expects will get complaints. People don't do this out of spite but because they want improvements or they've paid for a service that's below par.
Critiques are perfectly fine. The manner up was directed at the people who are giving xeris the finger and saying that the nasl is a setback for esports. There were bumps, especially at the start of the tournament, but my whole point is that this is just the first season.
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EPT
