EPTNASL Finals Stuff - Page 11
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dolphen
63 Posts
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typedef struct
United States84 Posts
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On July 12 2011 22:56 typedef struct wrote: If NASL is a league rather than a tournament, why can a non-league participant gain entry into the playoffs? No sports league would ever consider this. It's a leaguetournamentshowLAN depending on how good/bad they do at a particular aspect | ||
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Trowa127
United Kingdom1230 Posts
Haha, they will probably adopt that as the slogan for season 2! | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
Xeris, one thing you didn't address was the issue of Ret having to play Puma in the first round. Ret was the first seed, and in almost all tournaments the advantage of achieving the highest seed is being matched up against the lowest seed, and thus having an easier time reaching the higher brackets of the competition. I guess theoretically it would make sense to have this format; in theory you'd assume players who weren't selected for the NASL and thus had to play the open bracket would be weaker than players good enough to be selected to participate, but this was obviously not the case and I'm sure anyone could have predicted that the open bracket winner would be an amazing player. It just seemed really odd, and unfair to Ret, to make him play the strongest player and a potential GSL Code S winner by virtue of Ret finishing with the best record. Is this something that you're considering changing next season? If not, I can't see any incentive for finishing in first place, which I think is a problem. | ||
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Enzyme
Australia183 Posts
On July 12 2011 23:00 floor exercise wrote: It's a leaguetournamentshowLAN depending on how good/bad they do at a particular aspect They really do seem to change what they are going for every time they screw something up. Point out flaw then it's all "Oh, but that's not what we were going for, we just didn't tell anyone about it, until right now". I hope NASL Season 2 comes back with a much more concrete identity that doesn't leave the vast majority of its viewers in the dark again. Still annoyed their schedule change ruined the entire finals for me (tuned in at announced time, to see final gg), seriously NASL what the hell were you thinking there. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On July 12 2011 13:53 enemy2010 wrote: Thanks for this comment on the whole situation  Yeah, there were some major problems which maybe seemed even bigger for the stream users than for the people at the live event. So I might be understandable, that there were many complains by us. But as you said, this was your first huge event (even if some of your people already are kinda familiar with the SC2 scene and stuff) and you stated your problems and it seems that you are aware of them. Thats very good i guess So hopefully (and I am sure it will become true) the next season will get even bigger and better! Congratulations on your succees, keep it coming! And make sure that Lindsey has a good start into her SC2 experience  Encore: So i wanna just list my suggestions/ideas/thoughts i have on this whole topic. I wasn't watching every game during the season and even wasn't watching the whole finals (due to personal issues) but I think i can state some critics  What I liked: - Having multiple casters throughout the season. That was quite cool and exciting - Hmm well, i can't really state other big positive things. I just think that the whole season was quite solid, it was ok What I didn't like: - Having to pay for high quality streams. Sure, you have to get your money from somebody, and i fully understand this. So this isn't really a "you have to change that"-complain, its just something that bugged me . Maybe you could have given out free HD stream for the finals, that would've been a nice move - The whole news publishing issue. It was hard for me to navigate through your homepage and get to know all the results of the matches. So maybe overthing the website design/concept? I don't know - Known issues at the finals (no sound, delays etc.). Has all been stated so much, so i don't go into detail on that You already know what went wrong and you'll fix it next time Thanks again, see you soon! wow there are alot of smilies in this post. on a serious note. thank you for season 1 of NASL. I look foward to tuning in next season as well! | ||
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DrakeFZX3
United States925 Posts
Only point left is that for you Xeris, as the one in charge, to accept responsibility for not only the good things that happen, but also the bad. You can learn a lot from Sundance. | ||
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reisada
183 Posts
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Hammurabio
152 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=203988¤tpage=207#4122 As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. So my question for Xeris, how could you have seen Strelok's VISA when he hadn't even applied for it? Was Strelok or MaNa the one "high risk" player? | ||
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andytb
United Kingdom180 Posts
On July 12 2011 22:38 AmericanUmlaut wrote: You are massively underestimating the amount of work that went into HSCIII, even discounting the effort required to refurbish the apartment it was held in. One PC and one camera? Did you not see any of the shots of the production setup that they had in there? And there was significantly more than a "handful" of people - I was there and there were a fair number of staff wandering around downstairs at any given time. I can't believe how many people think that just because Take made HSCIII look easy that it was actually just this simple thing where he invited 16 people over and hung out for three days. Just to add to this, here's a pic of the HSC production rig + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ivQE9.jpg) It may look small but sure as hell there's a lot of cash sitting on that table right there. Then SirScoots' home rig (used for the EGMC) just takes it to the next level of awesome + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg619/scaled.php?tn=0&server=619&filename=1bvmgf.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640) Now imagine what you need to do when you also mix in venue sound, projectors, radio mics, miles of cable and broadcast standard cameras. Pretty gross. I sometimes wish I'd carried on in event production, the stress is kinda fun. | ||
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
I don't even remember reading any type of apology. I just read "this issue, caused by this guy" "well change it next season". | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On July 12 2011 22:56 typedef struct wrote: If NASL is a league rather than a tournament, why can a non-league participant gain entry into the playoffs? No sports league would ever consider this. Yeah, I don't really understand why they give an open spot in the finals like that. I invested a fair amount of time watching all season and then in the end someone I didn't watch at all was in a lot of important games at the end. This isn't problematic in terms of the way Puma played, he obviously played amazing. But it did take a bit of the drama out of his matches for me because he didn't have that season long story line built up for me. Of course the grand finals was an epic BO7 for the ages, and you could argue that it would not have happened without the open bracket slot, but that seems more like luck than planning to me. Anyway, NASL was a solid league, I liked that it was on in prime time and there were lots of decent matches on. Whatever mistakes they made *generally* didn't take away from the actual matches (that I watched), and while there is plenty to improve upon you have to give them credit for having a lot of world class players. As for next season though, I suspect I will spend my 25 bucks elsewhere. There is a lot of things to spend money on in the SC2 community, and NASL probably isn't going to be my priority. I don't regret the purchase for this season, I feel like I got my money's worth, but I also feel like I'd like to try something different next time around. Edited to add: The fact that I can watch live without paying and with ads is another reason I won't be playing. My connection rarely allowed me to stream in HD, and I never really had time to watch VODs anyway, so there was basically no advantage in my situation. | ||
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relic
United Kingdom148 Posts
Firstly, I do hope you have a new team in production. It was just poor, and at times I felt like I was watching the Nigerian movie channel on TV, only worse. Set design was extremely bad. I believe this has more to do with NASL's branding, I find the whole thing too dark and "cheap". It needs a seperate identity from SC2's style, this means new logo, new website, new marketing. For an example of good branding, take a look at TSL, the whole thing is bright, exciting, and professional. Interviewers were poor, I know it's nice to have some pretty girl ask questions, but you had 3 of the greatest casters / personalities we have in SC just sat around doing not much. Casting for me was average, I just don't like the gretorp / incontrol combo. I have grown to like incontrol a bit more, but he does tend to annoy me, but he worked the crowd well. Gretorp seems a bit slow, and a bit too obvious in what he is saying. I had hoped after seeing the first day with Gretorp / iNc and missing the saturday, I would see the finals being casting by our brightest and best, and I was wrong. Overall I did actually enjoy the event, but this wasn't down to NASL. It was down to: A) A great crowd providing support for all the players. B) Luckily, some of the best games of SC2 I have seen. The event seemed like it needed some more experienced people, and better management. | ||
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CidO
United States695 Posts
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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
I think overall its a league that did oversell too much and tried to make itself bigger than it is. The prize pool poses a large contrast to the production value. I was very skeptical how it was supposed to be run by people with almost no major league organization experience but hoped to be pleasantly surprised. Unfortunately, the concerns proved to be mostly appropriate. When looking at the today's poll results to the right I am very surprised how well the NASL finals were received. To be honest, if the league was run this way in Europe and would't have all the "we make ESPORTS happen in NA" myth it would qualify as the worst run major league. On the other hand, the games did turn up to be great and the enthusiastic American fans are a great plus for any tournament on American soil. I want to stress how this only my impression and is probably unrectified: If you compare MLG Dallas to the NASL finals, I would describe it that way: MLG Dallas was planned decently and turned out to be bad (very, very bad). But those were external factors that just go wrong and are somewhat excusable if you have no big budget Things like the projector in the NASL finals and I wasn't too annoyed by that. But the rest of the production... you can't say it turned out badly because something went wrong, it was planned that way from the start. It might be okay for a school performance or something like that but people actually paid $25 for it. Casters: There are reasons why you watch games and there are reasons why you don't. Whenever I talk to other people about NASL this comes up every time. GSL faced something similar and handled it well and professionally. If you want to be the best league, you should have the best casters. Attitude: MLG always criticizes itself and improves a lot, even after great events like MLG Columbus. They make the impression to take feedback very seriously. I don't have the same impression for NASL. If I read the TL posts from staff members they always take criticism poorly and personally. It might be just my perception because here in Germany criticism is less sugarcoated and is more to the issue rather than the persons involved. To be fair, NASL has received tons of unnecessary shit in the early stages, so staff might have become reluctant to it. But if you want to be considered as a community project with all its perks you must take feedback more seriously. About teams: These examples work in the inverse direction as well: Painuser did not show up despite being in a team, whereas pseudo teams like Team Grubby and Duckload worked (mostly) out. What distinguishes a one player team from a player? Calling players lazy ignores the fact that teams can be disorganized as well. In the end, the player will be always responsible to show up and play the games. About visa: The problematic player Strelok could not come to the finals whereas Nightend possibly could have. Don't get me wrong: It is valid to have your standpoints but giving examples how your principles failed nevertheless does not show you were right all along. Actually, it leaves the impression that the player selection was still arbitrary (invites always are so why deny that). The studio: I don't see any benefit of having a studio yet. Note: This is from a viewer's view. I am well aware that you need to have your people together for your production. But from a viewer's view it looks just like a dark dungeon. Sure, it's all professional and neat but I actually enjoy the friendly and simple screens from EG MCS or TSL3 more. I didn't like the graphic style of season 1 but now that you have some graphic artist it will probably improve in season 2. EU broadcast: It is a good idea, but: 1. Broadcast going down in important matches in the first couple of weeks killed the regular season for me. 2. It often collides with other stuff. 3. Europeans are not used to replay casts and/or prerecorded casts. We had everything live in WC3. Now we have everything prerecorded AND half of the world knows the score already. Team Liquid Live Report threads are mostly dead for EU broadcast and ESPORTS scene sites actually don't know how and when to report the scores (they are used to live events). 4. The sunday broadcast is on monday in EU. 5. GSL VODs are way better than rebroadcasts (for paying customers). They are up only two hours after the games end. The format: I understand how you want to put an emphasis on the regular season but the open tournament undermines it. Additionally, you shouldn't do things just because they are like that in real sports. You must make games attractive to the viewers, otherwise you have a large workload and no real benefit. The german championship, EPS, has changed its format in the regular season from 16 players round robin to many small groups. It does so after the round robin has become a tradition after about 8 years and its similarity with real sports (German Bundesliga). It did so because round robin just produced many uninteresting games that nobody really wanted to see. Something that could also be seen in season 1 NASL and a possible explanation for the many walkovers. Update: So I read my post twice and it might sound a bit too much like hate which it isn't. Why do I post at all if it is not directly constructive? Because I want to just give my impression which might help to improve the league as well. Clever responsible people can convert feelings into ideas. I just don't want to see how the league goes down with "but we did it all right! It must be the audience!". I don't really expect a response, it's just input. | ||
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Alexl
288 Posts
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
I don't know any other program that runs Wednesday through Sunday or Thursday through Monday (EU). I feel it would greatly improve the viewing experience if you could broadcast Monday through Friday. I could take Tuesday through Saturday as well for the EU broadcast, so that the US boys get it first on their prime time, but this run through the weekend is problematic - and I believe I'm not the only one. Many 5 days a week broadcasts that run Monday through Friday suffer lower number of viewers on Friday, because that's partly a weekend night for many with different schedules. In an ideal world, I could come home from work every day at 18:30, make dinner, start up the PC and watch NASL 7-10pm with a weekend broadcast bringing the 3 best series/games of the week running 5:30pm on Saturday. | ||
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Alexj
Ukraine440 Posts
On July 12 2011 13:11 Xeris wrote: To the people who say, "the finals shouldn't just be a single elimination!" I'd like to say: Dreamhack playoffs are single elimination, MLG's playoffs are single elimination (except for the 4 winners of pool play), WCG playoffs are single elimination... etc. So tournament X uses single elimination. But tournament Y uses double elimination! Is it really the only reason you've chosen SE -- because tournament X uses it? That's really really weak argument, especially since NASL didn't look at anyone else when they came up with group play format. Dreamhack, MLG, WCG have a lot of players participating, and a very limited timeframe. You have 16 players total for the final event, and you have 3 days to play it out. Why not to use format that would better determine the skill of participants? Ret, #1 NASL players after 9 weeks of play, didn't have a second chance. White-Ra, one of the fan favorites (and, ok, my favorite :D) didn't have a second chance. Yes, the finals are not an isolated event, but it makes even less sense when you consider how long and carefully you picked those 16 players, and then use the most basic and simple format after that. Dreamhack, MLG, WCG don't have 9 weeks of daily play as a lead-up to their play-off. | ||
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FlyingDJ
Germany153 Posts
Also, why has noone mentioned Lindsey as a negative yet? Bringing her in without any prior experience in StarCraft whatsoever must have been one of the worst decisions you could have made. Clearly the show aspect got to your head a bit when you chose her. | ||
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