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On July 12 2011 22:03 Pheo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 21:55 karpo wrote:
Manner up? Some seem to think that criticism and people being annoyed by all the pauses, issues and schedule errors are bad for the scene. Companies that don't deliver on what they promise/what the consumer expects will get complaints. People don't do this out of spite but because they want improvements or they've paid for a service that's below par. Critiques are perfectly fine. The manner up was directed at the people who are giving xeris the finger and saying that the nasl is a setback for esports. There were bumps, especially at the start of the tournament, but my whole point is that this is just the first season.
Let's say you were going to buy a car. You're looking what company to buy it from, and see this new up-and-coming company hyping themselves as a great manufacturer. You decide to risk it because they seem like they have good intentions, but the car ends up sucking terribly. Sure, it goes fast on the straights, but the seats aren't comfortable, you've had to bring it to the shop multiple times, some functions don't work (AC only got added after 20,000km!)
If you're conscious about where you spend money, this would piss you off and you would regret investing in this new car manufacturer. This is a business transaction, not just a good faith and a "oh, it's ok if it sucks for the first 3 months! they'll fix it in S2".
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On July 12 2011 22:03 Pheo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 21:55 karpo wrote:
Manner up? Some seem to think that criticism and people being annoyed by all the pauses, issues and schedule errors are bad for the scene. Companies that don't deliver on what they promise/what the consumer expects will get complaints. People don't do this out of spite but because they want improvements or they've paid for a service that's below par. Critiques are perfectly fine. The manner up was directed at the people who are giving xeris the finger and saying that the nasl is a setback for esports. There were bumps, especially at the start of the tournament, but my whole point is that this is just the first season.
I've read most of the thread and i've seen little to no "NASL is bad for esports". Saying it's their first season isn't a real argument to me as there's already serveral tournaments that do live LAN events better. If you want to have the highest price pool outside of korea you really should have a production crew good enough to, at least, equal the level of Dreamhack and MLG.
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On July 12 2011 21:48 Pheo wrote:Single-elimination: Look at all the major sporting events... Look at Tennis, NFL, etc... I think logistically for a LAN, it's better. It also makes cheese SO much more controversial, and makes it a much bigger deal to the players, which makes it a much bigger deal to the viewer too  As far as people angry and trying to play the blame game, I think your original post was respectable and exactly what you needed to say. Don't dwell on mistakes, just move on. Most people are just nitpicking because they're used to TV-like, seamless production quality... which isn't possible if you don't have a massive NBC budget. To the haters, manner up, this is their first time around. GO ESPORTS AND NASL!
Look man, first off SC2 is not tennis or NFL in any way. There is huge differance in funds as well as in the nature of the games. I have yet to hear of a tennis or NFL game that went only for 10 minutes. Let alone complete series. Do you think matches would be fun if the rule in NFL was "the first team to score a field goal wins"? At least that is how I see it.
On the nitpicking part of your post, and about haters needing to manner up because it is their first time around If they ask for my moral support in their effort to get better and/or learn how the ropes work, sure, they have it. But only while I'm on the free stream. If they want input on what viewers think went wrong, and ultimately help from others on how to get better, people are going to give them their oppinions and there is no room to get butthurt about that. Bottomline, everyone posting here wants to see NASL work.
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i think you should have more "fillers" inbetween matches esp if ur makeing this a show rather than a lan.
First thing that comes to mind is day9 vrs djwheat(i think?) on some down time inbetween matches in mlg. even if its just players interviews or something doesnt have to be big just fill the time.
also make the first round a bo5 i mean wtf traveling all that way to american then loseing 2-0 must suck.
and i for one, and sure many otheres did at first, rolled their eyes when they saw Gretorp and Incontrol casting the finals but i personaly think they did a better job than if artosis+ tastless had been casting so GJ to them!
+ no open bracket winners for reasons im sure have already been covered.
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On July 12 2011 22:09 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Let's say you were going to buy a car. You're looking what company to buy it from, and see this new up-and-coming company hyping themselves as a great manufacturer. You decide to risk it because they seem like they have good intentions, but the car ends up sucking terribly. Sure, it goes fast on the straights, but the seats aren't comfortable, you've had to bring it to the shop multiple times, some functions don't work (AC only got added after 20,000km!)
If you're conscious about where you spend money, this would piss you off and you would regret investing in this new car manufacturer. This is a business transaction, not just a good faith and a "oh, it's ok if it sucks for the first 3 months! they'll fix it in S2".
Your example kind of sucks. I think a more fitting example would be buying an album. You pay 15 bucks for a new album from a new band. The production quality isn't as good as it could have been, but the core things are there (nasl had great talent, and great games). So yeah, the next "album" to come out will be better, and I think it's great the direction NASL is going.
Putting together a huge event like this for the first time is way easier said than done. Hindsight is 20/20, and realizing that they needed 4 guys for a certain job instead of 1 is something that experience teaches.
On July 12 2011 22:11 svarog wrote:
Bottomline, everyone posting here wants to see NASL work.
Totally agree, but crucifying xeris like SOME posts isn't the way to go. I totally love all the constructive criticism that we've seen, but my post was directed toward the people pushing it to an extreme like the post above that I quoted comparing it to getting screwed over after buying a car. The guy who posted right above me... great example of constructive criticism through mannered opinions. (JouriCarver)
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Northern Ireland2557 Posts
Should fix your dresscode, blazer + Tshirt is unprofessional and awkward
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I think a problem larger than any you guys have addressed so far is communication. I'm surprised you haven't even addressed it copiously. That supposes to me that you don't see it as a problem or are trying to bury it.
Quite frankly, you're asking us to understand the difficulties on your end, which is reasonable (though at the end of the day, from both your perspective and mine only the results matter), but you're ignoring, or seem not to be aware of, the frustrating difficulties we've had on ours. You mention one of them: dead time on stream. Great, you're working to fix that. Not knowing when games will start, however, is another difficulty. Rapid changes in time also are. While you may think it's fine, it really isn't. You need to spend the additional five minutes communicating to the 100,000 people following this. It's unprofessional if you don't.
I'm not saying that you have to explain everything. We don't want everything. I'm just asking that you guys consider learning a lesson from the way TL ran their tournaments--decisions were explained, delays were announced, controversy was appeased. NASL will be much, much, much improved and will vastly ameliorate its reputation as a respectable international league if it does this effectively. Looking forward to improvements in Season 2!
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On July 12 2011 22:17 Pheo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:09 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Let's say you were going to buy a car. You're looking what company to buy it from, and see this new up-and-coming company hyping themselves as a great manufacturer. You decide to risk it because they seem like they have good intentions, but the car ends up sucking terribly. Sure, it goes fast on the straights, but the seats aren't comfortable, you've had to bring it to the shop multiple times, some functions don't work (AC only got added after 20,000km!)
If you're conscious about where you spend money, this would piss you off and you would regret investing in this new car manufacturer. This is a business transaction, not just a good faith and a "oh, it's ok if it sucks for the first 3 months! they'll fix it in S2". Your example kind of sucks. I think a more fitting example would be buying an album. You pay 15 bucks for a new album from a new band. The production quality isn't as good as it could have been, but the core things are there (nasl had great talent, and great games). So yeah, the next "album" to come out will be better, and I think it's great the direction NASL is going. Putting together a huge event like this for the first time is way easier said than done. Hindsight is 20/20, and realizing that they needed 4 guys for a certain job instead of 1 is something that experience teaches. Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 22:11 svarog wrote:
Bottomline, everyone posting here wants to see NASL work. Totally agree, but crucifying xeris like SOME posts isn't the way to go. I totally love all the constructive criticism that we've seen, but my post was directed toward the people pushing it to an extreme like the post above that I quoted comparing it to getting screwed over after buying a car.
Going with your analogy, the band and the and the talent are available on another album that costs less. Very possible that because they fucked up their first album, people will go buy the one produced by the other guys.
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you also introduced Lindsey "Excellent" Sporrer to the community lolz
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Throughout this 1st season of NASL, their mantra has been "We'll do better next time". I think the whole thing has been terribly managed and was such a wasted opportunity. There have been a multitude of events in the past few months which have produced far higher quality content on a far smaller budget. It seems NASL was banking completely on their large prize pool and sacrificed good production value. There were so many glaring faults throughout the season which should just not have happened. A strong leader would have sacked people if they weren't performing, or made the case for hiring additional staff if people were overloaded with work.
I sincerely hope things will come up to a professional standard in the next season, however I do not expect them to, but I would be very happy to be wrong on this.
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Blaming players for delays and being ignorant towards feedback
On July 12 2011 13:11 Xeris wrote:
If you are posting about it being a problem, we've already thought about it.
does not shine a better light on you.
I really hope you listen to some more of the feedback you got and don't ignore it because you might not like to hear it.
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So much buck passing in this post, it made me eyes hurt. Blaming players, editors, sound guys - the fact of the matter is YOU were running the event. YOU - NO ONE ELSE. Take responsibility. A lot of us here are paying customers, I know 25$ isn't a huge amount but reading your post just made me really angry.
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You better give thegunrun an ESPORTS medal for saving your asses Everything else will have to wait and see how you improve it in season 2.
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On July 12 2011 22:28 Trowa127 wrote:
So much buck passing in this post, it made me eyes hurt. Blaming players, editors, sound guys - the fact of the matter is YOU were running the event. YOU - NO ONE ELSE. Take responsibility. A lot of us here are paying customers, I know 25$ isn't a huge amount but reading your post just made me really angry.
When in doubt, Blame PainUser!
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Bringing in Lindsey saved the whole experience for me. Thanks.
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On July 12 2011 21:27 Morfildur wrote:
It's just a totally different kind of tournament and in no way comparable to such a small event like HSC3. If you have one PC, one Camera and a handful of people sitting around having some relaxed fun it's really not hard to have a production with no problems.
You are massively underestimating the amount of work that went into HSCIII, even discounting the effort required to refurbish the apartment it was held in. One PC and one camera? Did you not see any of the shots of the production setup that they had in there? And there was significantly more than a "handful" of people - I was there and there were a fair number of staff wandering around downstairs at any given time.
I can't believe how many people think that just because Take made HSCIII look easy that it was actually just this simple thing where he invited 16 people over and hung out for three days.
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Hey NASL I love the idea of a "show", I don't know which event it was but it was recently when we were shown the players having a BBQ, warming up, player reactions etc. and it was baller! (Ironic that I don't remember their name now but I haven't slept for 30 hours)
But I just can't help but be angry at the fact that none of you guys thought about this in advance, I mean really, cowering the whole event is what you're suppose to do if it isn't just a LAN but an "event"... It feels as if half the NASL staff are people scared shitless by all the critique that they just want things to work out which results in even more mistakes... because obviously nobody sat at the coffée meeting before the finals and said "Hey! I got an idea! If the whole event centers around a kind of 'gamer lifestyle experience' for the people there, making them feel like esports is more than just pure games, then why don't we try to include the hundreds of thousands that will view the stream and vods into that! I mean sure 400 onsite fans is great but isn't having 100 000+ people experience it over a video even sweller!?"
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I realize this is PR, but you seem unaware of just how poor the stream experience was. The most obvious issue is the audio; the fix for it during the first day was a big improvement, but by the end of the event we still couldn't hear half of the winner's interview. Scheduling was another huge issue. Having delays at an event like that is perfectly understandable; we realize things won't go exactly according to schedule. However, you could at least put up a notice for the stream-viewers (not sure if live viewers were alerted or not) saying "next match is delayed for X reason, we expect to resume the tournament at Y time." A lot of people wasted a lot of time and/or missed matches they were looking forward to due to the complete lack of communication. There were a plethora of other, smaller issues as well that seem to have been overlooked; for example, the cameraman seemed to have Parkinson's and couldn't keep the shot steady for a second, "let's turn off all the lights and then pan the audience" and other silliness, and the absence of translators for foreign player interviews (I'm assuming this wasn't intentional...), to name a few. Overall the live event, from a stream viewer's perspective, was incredibly disorganized and frustrating, and production-wise, was probably the worst high-profile event I've watched barring MLG Dallas. Luckily the players were still able to produce amazing games, and we were able to watch (if not always hear) them, so overall I came away from the experience somewhat satisfied. You should thank the players rather than try to shift blame towards them.
Past the live event, the rest of the season went well, I think. Obviously the beginning was very rough, on you guys as well as on us. Glad to hear you've enlarged your crew. By the end of season 1 I felt like the casts were going smoothly and I always got what I expected if I tuned in, so everything was satisfactory. I'm still concerned about the format though (and this is purely opinion at this point). First of all, I don't like the open tournament. Personally I feel like the long leage-style group play allows us to get to know players' style and a tiny bit of personality through the interviews; there's a smidgen of storyline as far as seeing their record go up and down each week; and they have some history with the other advancing players from their group. The open tournament winner, worthiness to compete notwithstanding, has none of these things. I feel like being able to develop storylines like this is one of NASL's unique points and potential strengths over other tournament-style events (though I don't feel like it's being taken advantage of... but that's another point entirely), so having an "unknown" player come through and knock out all the regular season players makes you wonder why you bothered watching the league at all during regular season. Furthermore, the open spot is arguably more difficult to achieve than advancing through the regular season (season 1 results seem to support this, though it's only one sample), so the seeding position is questionable.
The second thing about the regular season I've already alluded to. I feel like there should be more done to create storylines for the players. IMO (and I'm sure many will disagree) it'd be neat to have a short review of each player before their matches where casters can go over how they performed in the previous week, how well they're doing, and recent non-NASL games they've participated in. I'm thinking a 30s-1m replay summary of the previous week's games' highlight moments while commentators just talk over it. One match per week for each player makes it hard for viewers to maintain a continuous image of a player. The interviews you do with winners is good; video feed as well as audio (not sure of the logistics of this, but just putting it out there) would be even better. In-depth interviews not just focused on the last match would also be interesting (e.g. IPL's interviews, where you get to know the players instead of hear them summarize the game you just watched; but maybe not as hardcore as the GSL's really long player introductions). Maybe just feature one player a day to do a little extra production for.
Anyway, I realize some of that was pretty harsh, but all in all I enjoyed the first season and look forward to the second. My personal suggestions will most likely be ignored, but whatever. Hopefully the criticisms in the first part will at least be heard and dealt with. Good luck with season two!
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On July 12 2011 22:38 Krehlmar wrote:
Hey NASL I love the idea of a "show", I don't know which event it was but it was recently when we were shown the players having a BBQ, warming up, player reactions etc. and it was baller! (Ironic that I don't remember their name now but I haven't slept for 30 hours)
But I just can't help but be angry at the fact that none of you guys thought about this in advance, I mean really, cowering the whole event is what you're suppose to do if it isn't just a LAN but an "event"... It feels as if half the NASL staff are people scared shitless by all the critique that they just want things to work out which results in even more mistakes... because obviously nobody sat at the coffée meeting before the finals and said "Hey! I got an idea! If the whole event centers around a kind of 'gamer lifestyle experience' for the people there, making them feel like esports is more than just pure games, then why don't we try to include the hundreds of thousands that will view the stream and vods into that! I mean sure 400 onsite fans is great but isn't having 100 000+ people experience it over a video even sweller!?"
The tournament you mentioned was probably the Home Story Cup at Take's apartment.
I agree that the downtime between games was a bit dull and showing the stream what is going on at the event would be a good move (just make us feel part of the whole event). Still you guys gave us Lindsey so it's all good <3.
Next time maybe have the interviewer show more of the stuff that is happening in the background instead of just interviewing people hanging around the main area.
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I feel as if they should watch the whole event as a team in VOD form to really see what the stream viewer experience was. Then they can understand how cringeworthy, both production and otherwise, 90% of the first day (which is all I bothered watching) was. You can argue that the event was a success because it had one of the greatest SC2 series of all time, but frankly that was just lucky and had nothing to do with the organisation. If you are looking to improve then you can focus on things you can change, which isn't necessarily the quality of the play. In fact, you can improve that by not having bad/outdated maps or completely retarded map pools (like R16...)
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EPT
