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On July 12 2011 13:48 Leo702 wrote:
I was able to attend this event, and from attending other big conventions such as Blizzcon and PAX, this turned out to be an amazing event. I think we got really excellent games because of the big prize pool incentive and the players did not have to play many games in a row like in other tournaments, giving them more time to rest and hide their strategies.
NASL Grand Finals > Every GSL Grand Final (GSL is awesome but the games between MC and Puma were great)
Keep up the good work and continue to improve.
You were attending this event in person, no doubt it's gonna be better then watching a stream at 4am at night through your computer.
Honestly though, the fact that the Finals match wasn't completely 1 sided is the only thing that NASL has over GSL.
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More of Lindsey "Excellent" Sporrer for next season please :D
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On July 12 2011 18:01 svarog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 13:11 Xeris wrote:
As for the format: we feel like this format is okay. The big changes I believe we're looking into based on player feedback from the event is to make matches starting off be BO5, and introduce a veto system rather than all pre-set maps. In fact, player responses to the actual tournament finals were very positive from the people I talked to (<3 MorroW). To the people who say, "the finals shouldn't just be a single elimination!" I'd like to say: Dreamhack playoffs are single elimination, MLG's playoffs are single elimination (except for the 4 winners of pool play), WCG playoffs are single elimination... etc. The only difference is that since these are LAN events, the stages leading up to the playoffs are played on site, while ours are played online. Ret, for example... didn't fly out to the NASL, play his first matches, and get eliminated. He played for 9 weeks in the regular season. PuMa played multiple matches for every single day in the week, against some of the top level non Korean and Korean players in the Open Tournament (which was single elimination), and then played in the finals... etc. Try to look at the season as a whole rather than the Finals as an isolated event, and it makes a lot more sense.
So, Ret didn't fly out to the NASL, play his first matches, and get eliminated. He played for 9 weeks in the regular season, ... ... got the best results, and THEN he flew out to the NASL, play his first matches, and got eliminated. The playing for 9 weeks online prior to the event doesn't detract from the unfairnes of the matter, it actually adds to it. The format is not good. At least in my opinion. It hurts the players as well as the fans. I didn't watch after White-Ra and BoxeR got eliminated.
Ya I have to pretty much agree with all of this.
Also, it may not be the best idea to blame the pro gamers for the delay, or at least not name specific names.
You also didn't seem to address the sound much other than say it was bad. You said you guys got many new people working in different positions, but I didn't see one for sound, unless I just missed it.
As someone else mentioned, delays could be reduced a few ways... possibly just having 2 sets of computers that can be moved, or even 4 booths like in the GSL.
Either way, thanks for the public response.
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I may be unpopular for this but you all keep complaining about Ret vs Puma. Yet had Ret won would you see everyone complaining like this? If Puma had lost I doubt we would see so many of the big TL guys complaining about how unfair the format was. Even though Puma flew further and won the open bracket which had to be just as tough if not slightly tougher than winning the group stage. If your complaint is about Bo3 or about single elimination there is no reason to bring up a specific game, the fact that everyone keeps bringing this one game up just shows what the main motivation for these complaints are. That is that Ret lost.
On a positive note I really enjoyed the finals. It was the first live event I have been to. I got to meet a lot of players and casters. I am planning on going to the S2 finals as long as it is still in So Cal.
P.S. don't take me wrong I like Ret and I was rooting for him the whole time I just think that there are some other motivations behind some of the format complaints other than just the format.
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On July 12 2011 18:30 kmhuey wrote:
I may be unpopular for this but you all keep complaining about Ret vs Puma. Yet had Ret won would you see everyone complaining like this? If Puma had lost I doubt we would see so many of the big TL guys complaining about how unfair the format was. Even though Puma flew further and won the open bracket which had to be just as tough if not slightly tougher than winning the group stage. If your complaint is about Bo3 or about single elimination there is no reason to bring up a specific game, the fact that everyone keeps bringing this one game up just shows what the main motivation for these complaints are. That is that Ret lost.
On a positive note I really enjoyed the finals. It was the first live event I have been to. I got to meet a lot of players and casters. I am planning on going to the S2 finals as long as it is still in So Cal.
P.S. don't take me wrong I like Ret and I was rooting for him the whole time I just think that there are some other motivations behind some of the format complaints other than just the format.
FYI, it was brought up way before Puma even won the Open bracket
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231694
So you are wrong that we are bias.
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What i dislike is the way NASL has tried to pass blame and not own up to their crappy production.
Blaming progamers for downtime.
blaming it on NASL "being a show" instead of LAN event, yet saying it was their first LAN event a couple of sentences later.
Taking potshots at IPL about how long it took them to set up, saying that the NASL way of casting games live is "a strikingly better option". Only problem with this is that the IPL destroys NASL in both website management and production value, maybe just maybe they spent more time on really making everything work before they started their league?
Mentioning the sound problems and about fixing them in the RO16, there was echoes, static and the korean translator had no sound at all even at the finals. The sound issues were never fixed through the whole event basically.
Raffles/gaming/autograph signing were present at DH Invitational, a event with alot lower price pool and, probably, alot lower budget. Yet they did a way better job with everything from downtime to stage design.
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How is Replace Gretorp not helpful ?
Thats the single reason for me not buying a season 2 ticket at least.
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ret lost to the eventual champion.. I don't see how double elimination would have really helped here (or do people not think puma deserved the title?).
My only complaint is that they did 9 weeks of competition for playoff placement...and then allowed an open tournament. That pretty much made the season worthless. IMO, give the top 2 players a bye (free win) or something (and spread out the prize money so ranking higher helps)
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On July 12 2011 18:30 kmhuey wrote:
I may be unpopular for this but you all keep complaining about Ret vs Puma. Yet had Ret won would you see everyone complaining like this? If Puma had lost I doubt we would see so many of the big TL guys complaining about how unfair the format was. Even though Puma flew further and won the open bracket which had to be just as tough if not slightly tougher than winning the group stage. If your complaint is about Bo3 or about single elimination there is no reason to bring up a specific game, the fact that everyone keeps bringing this one game up just shows what the main motivation for these complaints are. That is that Ret lost.
On a positive note I really enjoyed the finals. It was the first live event I have been to. I got to meet a lot of players and casters. I am planning on going to the S2 finals as long as it is still in So Cal.
P.S. don't take me wrong I like Ret and I was rooting for him the whole time I just think that there are some other motivations behind some of the format complaints other than just the format.
Your logic is flawed, please think and reread before posting.
If PuMa lost (say 2-0 total of 15min game time like what happened to Ret), it won't change the fact that PuMa travelled all the way from SK to NA, costing thousands of dollar (don't know exactly where the money came from) then to lose a bo3 in 15mins.
Yes there maybe MORE complaints for Ret because he is the top seed and this is the TL forum, less complaint doesnt mean its less unfair.
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On July 12 2011 18:39 DusTerr wrote:
ret lost to the eventual champion.. I don't see how double elimination would have really helped here (or do people not think puma deserved the title?).
My only complaint is that they did 9 weeks of competition for playoff placement...and then allowed an open tournament. That pretty much made the season worthless. IMO, give the top 2 players a bye (free win) or something (and spread out the prize money so ranking higher helps)
It's just pure luck though that it was ret in that spot. Imagine if MC had played like his usual self in NASL and was the #1 seed. Then you'd see puma vs MC in the first round in a bo3...
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On July 12 2011 18:30 kmhuey wrote:
I may be unpopular for this but you all keep complaining about Ret vs Puma. Yet had Ret won would you see everyone complaining like this? If Puma had lost I doubt we would see so many of the big TL guys complaining about how unfair the format was. Even though Puma flew further and won the open bracket which had to be just as tough if not slightly tougher than winning the group stage. If your complaint is about Bo3 or about single elimination there is no reason to bring up a specific game, the fact that everyone keeps bringing this one game up just shows what the main motivation for these complaints are. That is that Ret lost.
On a positive note I really enjoyed the finals. It was the first live event I have been to. I got to meet a lot of players and casters. I am planning on going to the S2 finals as long as it is still in So Cal.
P.S. don't take me wrong I like Ret and I was rooting for him the whole time I just think that there are some other motivations behind some of the format complaints other than just the format.
The reason so many of us take issue with the format isn't that we don't think Puma's accomplishment was impressive or worthy of a prize, it's that there is so little reward for the nine weeks of content the pro players provide the NASL. Giving the winner of the open tournament bottom seed in the finals just feels completely unfair to the players who spent all that time grinding through the league, and effectively punishes the player with the best league record.
I really would like to see moderately sized prize purses for the top league and division spots, and maybe a small pot for each league win to incentivize players late season to play their best even if the outcome won't change their league results. I'd also really like to see the open tournament treated as a completely separate thing that is only used to qualify players for slots in the following season's league play. The way this season worked, you effectively had one player experiencing a completely different tournament format than the other 15 players.
The two biggest points for me are: I'd like to see the players better compensated for the nine games each that they play for our entertainment during league play, and I'd like to see every player have to take the same path to the finals.
On the points discussed in the OP: I'm glad that the NASL is aware that the first season was not up to the quality the community expects and is used to, and I hope that it will improve in coming seasons. I honestly came to regret putting down $25 for season one only to discover that I was basically purchasing the alpha version of the product, and I can't imagine I'll pay for another pass unless the quality picks up quite a bit. That being said, I really, really hope that the quality does pick up - like so many of us have written, I don't complain because I want the NASL to fail, but because I so much want it to succeed, and I'm sad to see a production with so much potential give such a lackluster debut performance.
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On July 12 2011 18:11 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 13:48 Leo702 wrote:
I was able to attend this event, and from attending other big conventions such as Blizzcon and PAX, this turned out to be an amazing event. I think we got really excellent games because of the big prize pool incentive and the players did not have to play many games in a row like in other tournaments, giving them more time to rest and hide their strategies.
NASL Grand Finals > Every GSL Grand Final (GSL is awesome but the games between MC and Puma were great)
Keep up the good work and continue to improve. You were attending this event in person, no doubt it's gonna be better then watching a stream at 4am at night through your computer. Honestly though, the fact that the Finals match wasn't completely 1 sided is the only thing that NASL has over GSL.
I also agree, but I think the crowd at NASL has been the best crowd I've seen throughout all the major Starcraft 2 tournaments so far. (Lots of reactions, someone yelling at the casters to kiss each other, counting the kill count for MC's DTs, etc.) Plus I was part of it haha...
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On July 12 2011 18:38 sc2guy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 18:30 kmhuey wrote:
I may be unpopular for this but you all keep complaining about Ret vs Puma. Yet had Ret won would you see everyone complaining like this? If Puma had lost I doubt we would see so many of the big TL guys complaining about how unfair the format was. Even though Puma flew further and won the open bracket which had to be just as tough if not slightly tougher than winning the group stage. If your complaint is about Bo3 or about single elimination there is no reason to bring up a specific game, the fact that everyone keeps bringing this one game up just shows what the main motivation for these complaints are. That is that Ret lost.
On a positive note I really enjoyed the finals. It was the first live event I have been to. I got to meet a lot of players and casters. I am planning on going to the S2 finals as long as it is still in So Cal.
P.S. don't take me wrong I like Ret and I was rooting for him the whole time I just think that there are some other motivations behind some of the format complaints other than just the format. FYI, it was brought up way before Puma even won the Open bracket http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231694So you are wrong that we are bias.
Actually I did read that thread and it seemed pretty split between those that thought it was a bad idea but understood why they chose that format and those that thought that was the way it should be run. Of course there were extremes in there as in every thread on TL.
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On July 12 2011 13:33 fearlessparagon wrote:
I find it interesting that you guys did the finals as a 'show' rather than a LAN. Is there research that shows that a 'show' is what your target market wants? Also, if you wanted a show, why stream? Why the long wait times? Why is there no script when Gretorp and Incontrol was on stage? Why aren't there any solid interview questions?
Also, I don't think that the black background on the stage was very easy on the eyes. If it was a 'show' as you say, the background of the stage should have been a little bit more stylish.
Can you also address the small cozy booths? Did you guys think about having 4 booths instead of 2 so 2 players can play while 2 players set up?
Excellent that you got the first reply. It's ok that NASL seems to be addressing the issue, but spinning it as a "show" is lame and dumb. Just admit to the mistakes and learn from it. People shelled money out and they're not happy, much less if they find you giving excuses like that. I hope you do next season better.
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On July 12 2011 18:46 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 18:30 kmhuey wrote:
I may be unpopular for this but you all keep complaining about Ret vs Puma. Yet had Ret won would you see everyone complaining like this? If Puma had lost I doubt we would see so many of the big TL guys complaining about how unfair the format was. Even though Puma flew further and won the open bracket which had to be just as tough if not slightly tougher than winning the group stage. If your complaint is about Bo3 or about single elimination there is no reason to bring up a specific game, the fact that everyone keeps bringing this one game up just shows what the main motivation for these complaints are. That is that Ret lost.
On a positive note I really enjoyed the finals. It was the first live event I have been to. I got to meet a lot of players and casters. I am planning on going to the S2 finals as long as it is still in So Cal.
P.S. don't take me wrong I like Ret and I was rooting for him the whole time I just think that there are some other motivations behind some of the format complaints other than just the format. The reason so many of us take issue with the format isn't that we don't think Puma's accomplishment was impressive or worthy of a prize, it's that there is so little reward for the nine weeks of content the pro players provide the NASL. Giving the winner of the open tournament bottom seed in the finals just feels completely unfair to the players who spent all that time grinding through the league, and effectively punishes the player with the best league record.
See I do not get this. Puma played through a brutal Open Bracket which by the way it was announced before the league started that the open bracket winner would get into the top 16. Most of the top 16 could not have won that open bracket how does that make his accomplishment unimpressive or unworthy of a prize? Thats just silly to say.
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On July 12 2011 14:40 MrBorto wrote:
The regular season was meaningless. ~80% of the views occurred during the regular season yet four of the 52 players took home 90% of the prize money on the very last day. How is that a league?
For season 2 I would love to see you take $40k from the finals and put that into the regular season. $50 per game OR $4k for division winners $3k for runner ups and $2k for playoff winners. Make it meaningful.
I really like this idea !
And it'll help with walkovers especially at the end of a season.
(even if i don't know, how many games were played in the end)
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On July 12 2011 18:59 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2011 14:40 MrBorto wrote:
The regular season was meaningless. ~80% of the views occurred during the regular season yet four of the 52 players took home 90% of the prize money on the very last day. How is that a league?
For season 2 I would love to see you take $40k from the finals and put that into the regular season. $50 per game OR $4k for division winners $3k for runner ups and $2k for playoff winners. Make it meaningful. I really like this idea ! And it'll help with walkovers especially at the end of a season. (even if i don't know, how many games were played in the end)
Yeah that sounds great. Seems like all the SC2 tournaments are extremely top heavy in terms of money. DH invitational even had a bunch of cash for first price and no money for 2nd/3rd. This should be implemented especially cause they want to differentiate themselves from the competition in being a real league.
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I don't agree with an open tournament winner being invited to the finals. Inviting the winner to the next season of play is understandable but to slide in and not have to grind out 9 weeks of play just like the other 15 players is pretty disheartening to me.
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On July 12 2011 19:08 Tegin wrote:
I don't agree with an open tournament winner being invited to the finals. Inviting the winner to the next season of play is understandable but to slide in and not have to grind out 9 weeks of play just like the other 15 players is pretty disheartening to me.
If I remember correctly from when iNcontrol first talked about the league the open bracket was the only way to get more than 5 people from the same team or players without a team into the league. They didn't want more than 5 per team or players without teams to be in the group play.
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Had ZERO issues with your finals stream, Thank you NASL for an awesome show!!
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EPT
