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NASL Finals Stuff - Page 5

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bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
July 12 2011 07:40 GMT
#81
well the great matches in finals kinda saved you from total failure, you can say what you want but the problems on the first day were so exceptionally big i could not believe my eyes/ears, how its possible that tournament of that high caliber have so trivial issues. And lastly using excuses about inexperience is silly in modern world when you can hire people who know their stuff.
Stork[gm]
DND_Enkil
Profile Joined September 2010
Sweden598 Posts
July 12 2011 07:41 GMT
#82
On July 12 2011 16:37 thee telescopes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2011 16:19 Jibba wrote:
Also, for any small player pool LAN tournaments in the future, it really shouldn't take that long for players to set up.

C:\Users\NASL\Documents\StarCraft II\Variables.txt

When they first get there a day or two in advance, every player should set up and you should save it so a staff member just copy it over before their matches.

Tell the players no installing drivers is allowed (this should be obvious, tbh) and if their stuff doesn't work, plug SS or whoever and have extra Kinzu's/Xai's/7g/6gv2's on hand.

Ask for any special accommodations like German language in advance. Relocalizing is a 2 minute process, and I believe you could even do it through the key bindings save file.
Is it standard in RTS games for players to not be able to install drivers before their matches? I come from a FPS background and couldn't imagine playing that way.


Yeah not being allowed to install drivers sounds like it would hurt... Bigtime.

But i think each player should say beforehand what kind of languages they need installed on the computer, so if a german player is using a german only driver he needs to make this known beforehand.
"If you write about a sewing needle there is always some one-eyed bastard that gets offended" - Fritiof The Pirate Nilsson
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
July 12 2011 07:43 GMT
#83
Very nice that you picked up so much of the critisicm and work hard on these points to improve. With that, the NASL is taking one more step towards being on par with the GSL. Well, it is still a long way towards that, but in the near future I definitely see the NASL up there!
Akta
Profile Joined February 2011
447 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 07:47:54
July 12 2011 07:46 GMT
#84
On July 12 2011 15:42 Excalibur_Z wrote:Get experienced department leaders who can manage their teams effectively, report issues to you upfront and provide their suggestions for improvement.
I'll expand that to leader in general. That's the impression I've gotten, that the main issue is a lack of a person that knows how to run events like this and a lack of someone that knows how manage the regular production.

For example that they supposedly now have 4 "professional video editors" instead of 1 "non professional" when they started. To me that makes it sound like the main problem wasn't that they didn't have enough professional video editors. It makes it sound like the real problem is that they don't have a "professional" production leader.



I couldn't decide if I should post or not at first after reading the op, felt like hundreds of people would post and complain about this and that, just like me. But I think it boils down to that I really want NASL to succeed. I love the 5 nights a week broadcasts for example.

I just get the impression that it might take 5-10 years or more before things work properly if the whole thing is based on a bunch of people that are supposed to learn everything from scratch. But I truly hope it's mostly my own fault for misunderstanding things and that I've just gotten the wrong impression.
ethorn
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden22 Posts
July 12 2011 07:48 GMT
#85
I think that most people don't realize how hard it is to do it right the first time. There is so much stuff going on that the viewer never see. We are used with very high standards and compare NASL to other tournaments like MLG and Dreamhack. But these other tournaments have a lot of experience, and when they first started out they were way below the current standard. You have to keep that in mind.

Glad that you are learning from mistakes and working on improvements. Looking forward to season 2.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
July 12 2011 07:50 GMT
#86
On July 12 2011 16:48 ethorn wrote:
I think that most people don't realize how hard it is to do it right the first time. There is so much stuff going on that the viewer never see. We are used with very high standards and compare NASL to other tournaments like MLG and Dreamhack. But these other tournaments have a lot of experience, and when they first started out they were way below the current standard. You have to keep that in mind.

Glad that you are learning from mistakes and working on improvements. Looking forward to season 2.



Trial by fire, trial by fire. As much as I criticized the NASL over the past week, I really do want these guys to succeed.
aebriol
Profile Joined April 2010
Norway2066 Posts
July 12 2011 07:54 GMT
#87
I'll preface this by saying, I bought the original pass, and will be buying one for the next season. However, I didn't watch that many matches (perhaps 10-15 overall) before the final, where I didn't watch friday and only watched saturday and sunday. It's cheap enough that it's worth it for me anyway.

Now how would I rate it overall?

I would say so far, for me, I love GSL, and I really like MLG, and I like IGN pro league and NASL.

Things I think you need to work on:
- The website needs to be clear, and informative, about everything. From day 1.
- Stream should have information (just text) that gives out some kind of explanation for delays, schedule changes, matches removed, etc.
- I can handle 1080p streams from elsewhere, just yours have sound issues especially in the beginning of the season. Look into it, or offer lower stream quality like 720p at least. It might be that I am from europe, I don't know, but really, it was annoying, and a big part of why I wasn't watching more of the season matches.

I quite enjoyed having Idra as a guest caster. And I enjoy other professionals doing the same other places. One thing you might look into is doing that a bit more if it would work out.

I think you did the right thing overall with casters. Obviously your employees will be casting the final, that only makes sense. It was fun seeing the well known personalities there in addition.

Something for the streamers ...

Like or dislike, Lindsey made the waiting a lot less painful for people (had something entertaining to watch, either for the comedy value, or just because it was funny how she made all us gamer nerds open up and talk), so I think that ... possibly ... if you would have shows in addition.

Ask Day[9] to do a live daily from the event? Have a showmatch for tastosis to cast during a break? Put on a stream with the best starcraft 2 parody songs (a countdown - top 20?).

Basically ... have some content on the stream during the final event, in addition to some kind of message saying 'next match is X vs Y at HH:MM PST in (countdown) - or whatever.

Overall, I enjoyed it, though not as much as I could have, and find it to be a good addition to the other leagues and events. This being a mix.
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
July 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#88
I'm insanely hyped for season 2. I have a lot of faith that you guys will do well next season, and I don't think any more criticisms need to be said since its all pretty obvious at this point (already stated by Milkis for the most part).

In response to Milkis, the biggest part I disagree with is the issue with delays - I witnessed some progamers taking quite a bit to set up and get their things in the right order. I think its just the fact they were given so much more time, some felt they would prefer a longer set up time. IMO it was much better to nail the live event with delays then to try to rush everything and potentially have even more critical errors.

IMO the main concerns arise when you say "NASL is not like any other event", which I completely agree with but that was never apparent until I attended the finals myself. It made all the "NASL is killing ESPORTS" arguments seem extremely silly when you had the entire crowd going ballistic over the finals game (and the bronze match as well). The only thing being killed at the NASL are awful back pains thanks to Gretorp's patented Gosu Massage.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Yizuo
Profile Joined December 2004
Germany1537 Posts
July 12 2011 08:01 GMT
#89
Nice writeup!
How much will the season pass for S2 cost?
DusTerr
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
2520 Posts
July 12 2011 08:06 GMT
#90
On July 12 2011 13:11 Xeris wrote:
The Season

The basic format of our league is unlike anything anyone has really done on a big scale in Starcraft 2. We are really trying to have the format of an actual sports league. Every other event is a tournament, rather than an actual league. If you think about sports: who watches every single NBA game? Only the most die-hard fans. Most people, casual fans, will only watch the teams // players they prefer. Our goal for the NASL is similar. We believe that the number reach of Starcraft 2 and the number of fans is so great that this is a viable format, once people get used to it. Maybe we're wrong, but we will definitely be giving it more than 1 Season to see if it catches on more. We feel strongly that giving players a lot of time each week to prepare for their matches is good, for the players that care enough to do so. Take, for instance, DarkForcE, Boxer, and Sheth. Those are three players who I know specifically put in a lot of preparation for each NASL game. That preparation paid off, and all three of those players advanced to the Finals. Boxer and DarkForcE were considered by many to not be deserving of the league at the start, in terms of skill (Boxer of course... for his fame however)! But this season they showed people what preparation can do for you. We like the fact that the format is different from every other event, so we are planning on keeping a very similar format for next season.


As an avid sports fan, I actually like the "season" idea a lot... However, you need to do more for it to work (like other sports do).
+ Show Spoiler +

On July 12 2011 15:03 HydraLF wrote:
Like for Formula 1 in UK, one hour before the race start we have the pundits analysing highlights of previous games, talk about latest news in the industry, express their views on how the race is going to pan out, who to look out for, then Martin Brundle will be down the paddock walking around interviewing drivers, team bosses, celebrities when they were setting up their cars/doing their own stuff, there is never any downtimes, certainly no track staring for hours.
As stated above "dead time" at events needs to handled the same way the first 2 minutes of just about any game cast are. Filling space with analysis. Keep the fans entertained and thinking about the matche(s) or season. You can use highlight videos (I know some people complained about seeing them, but I actually really enjoyed the highlights of how players made it to the finals). You can even just have people breaking down the build orders and explaining why the strategy from the previous game was effective.

The other issue with the sports league format is keeping people interested for the duration..
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 12 2011 14:57 ApBuLLet wrote:
One thing that I did not like about NASL is that it was hard to follow consistently, especially if you do not pay for VODs, which personally I think should not be necessary just to follow the league, but more of an extra thing for the more die hard people. Like you said, it's hard to watch every single game in an entire season of basketball, and the same goes for the NASL. That's all well and good, not everybody needs to watch every single game of such a long tournament (compared to what we are used to), however, many of us would like to be able to follow the league closely even though we may not have time to watch all of the games. For example, you do not need to watch every single NBA basketball game in order to know the results of matches, the standings in each division, which players are injured, what happened in the highlight games/series' each week, etc. With the NASL, you really DO need to watch all of the games to get this type of information. Yeah I can go to the NASL site and look at the standings, but that doesn't tell me what went on during the games at all, and that's what I want to know.
[...]
My suggestion is to have a weekly (roughly) ESPN-type recap on what happened in the NASL during that week. Have set topics, even if they are just a rundown of the highlight matches of the week, and have the casters, players, etc, talk about them briefly. Just a few ideas of what you could talk about are trends going on within match ups that may be changing a bit at that time, trends going on between players (something like "IdrA's ZvT has been awesome lately because he has adopted this playstyle that is just a little bit different from what he is doing before and this is why it is so good), highlight matches such as July vs MC or something like that, big upsets, funny/interesting games (KiWiKaKi on Terminus RE, Artosis vs. Grubby, that kind of stuff ), etc. I'm sure there would be plenty of topics to talk about for an hour or so each week.

I know Day[9] isn't really a part of NASL other then casting at the finals, but I could totally see him doing a job like this full time for NASL. Not necessarily spending an hour analyzing something like he does in his daily, but just brief, pre-planned analysis of games to convey the general idea of what happened in a game.

You could even bring players on as guests through skype or something sometimes (as you did for interviews) and have them talk about a game they played, or a game someone else played. These players don't necessarily need to be in the league either, just people who are knowledgeable about the game.

Lastly, I think something like this would need to be a free thing that everyone has access to, otherwise it is rather pointless. My main problem is that it is hard to follow without having VOD access because there is no other way to see any of the games to even get a general idea of what is going on. This makes people not want to buy the VODs because there is no way for them to get into it really. An hour long show once a week would be an awesome way to keep people interested who do not subscribe, and hopefully it will be enough to make want to see the stuff they are missing by not subscribing.
You need to keep hype going during the season. You really should have at least one SHOW AND THREAD (accessible from your website) dedicated to discussing, dissecting, analyzing, and hyping games that were played, how those games affect the standings, what upcoming games are very important or have potential to showcase new strategies (or two players who have very high win% vs opponent's race). Maybe you discuss the strategies being used (detailed BOs) or highlight some incredible micro (clips of an entire protoss army being EMPd and run over or insane baneling micro). Currently there are lots of community driven shows and TL is full of threads (many that discussed NASL), but to keep hype going for an entire season YOU need to be the one pushing it.

The last thing I'd mention is that if you're going to have a season, make it count - No "open" tournament spots.

TLDR: I like the idea of a "sports season" however you need to have a great way for fans to "catch up" with what happened if they missed a few games/weeks, and hype each week to keep people tuning in.
sc2guy
Profile Joined November 2010
291 Posts
July 12 2011 08:07 GMT
#91
On July 12 2011 15:00 Joseph123 wrote:
What makes me sad is that you think your format is ok.. (example you think its fair for Ret to win everything in the open season and then to lose 2 games and its out)
You want NASL to be unique but at the same time you say the format is like other tournaments so its fine..


I agree.

The format is RIDICULOUS.

It is absolutely unfair to Ret.

Xeris, alot of people have been slamming this (there is a specific thread regarding this). Have you discussed with your colleagues regarding this or asked friends for more input? I can't believe that people around you will okay this arrangement. Dare I say it is simply pure stubbornness to admit that the matchup was wrong?

Let's see the public opinion.

Poll: What do you think of Ret having to play against Open Winner?

Absolutely ridiculous. What a way to reward the best performer of divisional play. (74)
 
76%

Doesn't matter. They will meet eventually. (20)
 
21%

Don't care. I don't watch NASL anyway. (3)
 
3%

97 total votes

Your vote: What do you think of Ret having to play against Open Winner?

(Vote): Absolutely ridiculous. What a way to reward the best performer of divisional play.
(Vote): Doesn't matter. They will meet eventually.
(Vote): Don't care. I don't watch NASL anyway.



✿◕‿◕✿ Taeng
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 08:15:52
July 12 2011 08:10 GMT
#92
I hope you rethink the Bo5 thing. I don't think flying X000 miles to an event to play one set is worth it...It's not a UFC fight where you physically can only do 1 fight. Think of all the tournaments where a player has done poorly in groups/goes to loser bracket and then makes it through to the end. When you are talking about player exposure from a sponsor standpoint, having half the player pool gone almost immediately is a bit :\ considering the event is 3 days long. #1 seed vs #1 open bracket is ....~_~. hopefully the community will convince you to change this.

The stream was much better on saturday/sunday - hopefully based on lessons learned from this run, there will be more prepared for the down time for the stream.
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
July 12 2011 08:12 GMT
#93
On July 12 2011 17:07 sc2guy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2011 15:00 Joseph123 wrote:
What makes me sad is that you think your format is ok.. (example you think its fair for Ret to win everything in the open season and then to lose 2 games and its out)
You want NASL to be unique but at the same time you say the format is like other tournaments so its fine..


I agree.

The format is RIDICULOUS.

It is absolutely unfair to Ret.

Xeris, alot of people have been slamming this (there is a specific thread regarding this). Have you discussed with your colleagues regarding this or asked friends for more input? I can't believe that people around you will okay this arrangement. Dare I say it is simply pure stubbornness to admit that the matchup was wrong?

Let's see the public opinion.

Poll: What do you think of Ret having to play against Open Winner?

Absolutely ridiculous. What a way to reward the best performer of divisional play. (74)
 
76%

Doesn't matter. They will meet eventually. (20)
 
21%

Don't care. I don't watch NASL anyway. (3)
 
3%

97 total votes

Your vote: What do you think of Ret having to play against Open Winner?

(Vote): Absolutely ridiculous. What a way to reward the best performer of divisional play.
(Vote): Doesn't matter. They will meet eventually.
(Vote): Don't care. I don't watch NASL anyway.





The fact that people make polls as a way to put an upvote/downvote system into their posts on TL is actually extremely ridiculous. The public opinion is already apparent in the posts. Also bolding words makes my opinion stand out much more and gives me a sense of legitimacy. THIS TEXT IS FUCKING RED

Poll: Please validate my opinion TL

KILLING ESPORTS (12)
 
39%

Xeris' cat real fat (11)
 
35%

Let us circle jerk together (8)
 
26%

31 total votes

Your vote: Please validate my opinion TL

(Vote): Let us circle jerk together
(Vote): KILLING ESPORTS
(Vote): Xeris' cat real fat


Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-12 08:14:19
July 12 2011 08:13 GMT
#94
On July 12 2011 17:07 sc2guy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 12 2011 15:00 Joseph123 wrote:
What makes me sad is that you think your format is ok.. (example you think its fair for Ret to win everything in the open season and then to lose 2 games and its out)
You want NASL to be unique but at the same time you say the format is like other tournaments so its fine..


I agree.

The format is RIDICULOUS.

It is absolutely unfair to Ret.

Xeris, alot of people have been slamming this (there is a specific thread regarding this). Have you discussed with your colleagues regarding this or asked friends for more input? I can't believe that people around you will okay this arrangement. Dare I say it is simply pure stubbornness to admit that the matchup was wrong?






The only suggestion I have is to have a more even distribution of the prize pool. Anyone that makes it to the top 16 should be awarded with a bit more money. And people should get additional prize money for winning their division and the league. At least this way, there is some benefit for playing for first and not throwing away games (ex. Select).

Thrombozyt
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Germany1269 Posts
July 12 2011 08:14 GMT
#95
Wasn't the homestory cup also 16 players only?

That format was AWESOME as far as spectators were concerned. When you have a 4 player group and you simply state that the season placing will not only determine group seeding but also be used as a tiebreak in the group stage, suddenly your season rating might actually mean something in the finals.
leo23
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3075 Posts
July 12 2011 08:16 GMT
#96
Moletrap asked White-Ra about the NASL event and this is what he had to say:

"I like here, but I think NASL need to change rules. Because we have here single elimination. Maybe better make group stage and after [that] single elimination. Or [just] double elimination. Because community can see many games and player who lost can [have] second chance. Because I spent many time come here, played SelecT, I lost [vs] him but I not have second chance make comeback. And of course 1st place is good money but it's half of [the] prize pool and people who played 2 months spent many time nervous wake up 4 am 6 am and come here and not get big prize pool money. Just all money get 1st and 2nd place and I think it's not fair because all players spent many time for practice and they deserve more."


Here is the link of the youtube interview:


The question and answer go from 4:46 to 6:06

I think White-Ra has a point, having double elimination or group stages is way better for a LAN event since it provides the viewers much more games and entertainment. I'm sure the time that is needed for any of these formats exists. Just look at the hours of downtime during the tournament. It really hurts to see your favorite player come to this live event only to see him knocked out after a single series. And I can only imagine how would ret feel after being the #1 seed with such an impressive record and travel hundreds of miles just to play for 10 minutes and get eliminated.

I know that the NASL has a group stage as you mentioned but that is online... It is different very from LAN where there are so many different factors involved.

As for the prize money part I cannot comment on that since I don't exactly know what is a "fair" prize money distribution, but I think the most important part of this interview is about the entertainment value that the viewer can get from these different formats.
banelings
Akta
Profile Joined February 2011
447 Posts
July 12 2011 08:19 GMT
#97
On July 12 2011 17:10 Kennigit wrote:
I hope you rethink the Bo5 thing. I don't think flying X000 miles to an event to play one set is worth it...It's not a UFC fight where you physically can only do 1 fight. Think of all the tournaments where a player has done poorly in groups/goes to loser bracket and then makes it through to the end. When you are talking about player exposure from a sponsor standpoint, having half the player pool gone almost immediately is a bit :\ considering the event is 3 days long. #1 seed vs #1 open bracket is ....~_~. hopefully the community will convince you to change this.

The stream was much better on saturday/sunday - hopefully based on lessons learned from this run, there will be more prepared for the down time for the stream.
I don't quite understand why it couldn't be a normal group stage in the final event for those that qualified, like the other big tournaments.
cYaN
Profile Joined May 2004
Norway3322 Posts
July 12 2011 08:20 GMT
#98
It's awesome that you guys are working so hard to improve.
I still think the format (for the season) is a major problem and your solution is that it will grow on everyone? Glad to see you've kept your optimism through your season 1 experience Xeris, lol. Seriously...
Deleted User 101379
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
4849 Posts
July 12 2011 08:22 GMT
#99
On July 12 2011 17:16 leo23 wrote:
Moletrap asked White-Ra about the NASL event and this is what he had to say:

Show nested quote +
"I like here, but I think NASL need to change rules. Because we have here single elimination. Maybe better make group stage and after [that] single elimination. Or [just] double elimination. Because community can see many games and player who lost can [have] second chance. Because I spent many time come here, played SelecT, I lost [vs] him but I not have second chance make comeback. And of course 1st place is good money but it's half of [the] prize pool and people who played 2 months spent many time nervous wake up 4 am 6 am and come here and not get big prize pool money. Just all money get 1st and 2nd place and I think it's not fair because all players spent many time for practice and they deserve more."


Here is the link of the youtube interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bpGH_fIUIw&feature=feedu

The question and answer go from 4:46 to 6:06

I think White-Ra has a point, having double elimination or group stages is way better for a LAN event since it provides the viewers much more games and entertainment. I'm sure the time that is needed for any of these formats exists. Just look at the hours of downtime during the tournament. It really hurts to see your favorite player come to this live event only to see him knocked out after a single series. And I can only imagine how would ret feel after being the #1 seed with such an impressive record and travel hundreds of miles just to play for 10 minutes and get eliminated.

I know that the NASL has a group stage as you mentioned but that is online... It is different very from LAN where there are so many different factors involved.

As for the prize money part I cannot comment on that since I don't exactly know what is a "fair" prize money distribution, but I think the most important part of this interview is about the entertainment value that the viewer can get from these different formats.


I disagree with the group stages. As you mentioned, NASL has already several month long group stages, it wouldn't make much sense to add more group stages. However, i agree that the pricepool should compensate players for going to the finals. Maybe make the total pricepool 10k smaller and pay for all flights, housing and food for all 16 players.
Currently it's almost a "I pay money to fly there and i might not even get anything back" situation for the players.
Defacer
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada5052 Posts
July 12 2011 08:27 GMT
#100
On July 12 2011 17:10 Kennigit wrote:
I hope you rethink the Bo5 thing. I don't think flying X000 miles to an event to play one set is worth it...It's not a UFC fight where you physically can only do 1 fight. Think of all the tournaments where a player has done poorly in groups/goes to loser bracket and then makes it through to the end. When you are talking about player exposure from a sponsor standpoint, having half the player pool gone almost immediately is a bit :\ considering the event is 3 days long.

The stream was much better on saturday/sunday - hopefully based on lessons learned from this run, there will be more prepared for the down time for the stream.


From a business standpoint, a single best of 3 just makes no sense. They should be taking advantage of the situation, by implementing a playoff format that generates as many quality games as possible.

It's good for NASL business, it's good for the online fans, it's good for the LAN event.


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